NDEs and ADCs: Awesome Verifications

[Butch5]

All of Butch's comments ignore or miss the point of the texts I discuss and no modern academic commentary supports them. I encourage other readers to read our debate and weigh in to provide context for my forthcoming refutation of Butch's interpretations. Meanwhile, I will move directly to the answers to my 4 questions that, I think, provide a biblical warrant for NDEs and ADCs.

No, they don't. I offered to delve deeper into them.

1. In the OT where does a dead spirit communicate with the living?
In 1 Samuel 28:8-29, Saul communicates with the deceased prophet Samuel through the medium of Endor. 28:14 makes it clear that this really is the spirit of Samuel! So if Samuel can communicate through a medium, why can't our beloved dead communicate with us through NDEs and ADCs? True, the Bible condemns mediumship as the means for such communications, but it doesn't condemn the claim that the dead can take the initiative in contacting the living.

Firstly, how can a spirit be dead? And, how can a dead spirit communicate? This is not Samuel speaking. This passage doesn't use either the word spirit or soul. You've simply stated that it is Samuel's "spirit". If you read the text what the woman saw was, elohim, gods? She saw gods. The Scriptures make it clear that the gods of the pagans are demons. The woman saw a demon. ! Chron. makes this clear.

YLT 1 Chronicles 10:13 And Saul dieth because of his trespass that he trespassed against Jehovah, against the word of Jehovah that he kept not, and also for asking at a familiar spirit -- to inquire, -- (1 Chr. 10:13 YLT)

Saul inquired of a familiar spirit. That is a demon.

Additionally the Scriptures say that God would not speak to Saul through prophets, Samuel was a prophet. Likewise God had forbid the Jews from partaking in necromancy. If we accept the interpretation that you've given we have to accept that a dead Samuel disobeyed God's command. We would also have to believe that a demon had the ability to control Samuel.

2. In what 2 Gospel stories do dead spirits return to appear to the living?
First, in Jesus' Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appear to Peter, James, and John and discuss Jesus' future fate (Luke 9:28-36). If Moses' spirit can return from the dead to appear to the disciples, why can't our beloved dead manifest to us in NDEs and ADCs? Second, at the moment of Jesus' death, some of the saintly dead are resurrected and they appear to Jerusalem residents until after Jesus' resurrection (Matthew 27:52-53).

No, what we have here is a vision of the resurrection, of the coming of the Lord. It is a vision of the future.

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt. 17:8-9 KJV)

Peter confirms this in his epistle.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. (2 Pet. 1:16-18 KJV)

What they saw was the future coming of Christ. The saw Moses and Elijah in their resurrected form. They saw Jesus in His resurrected form. Notice the passage says that they appeared with Christ "in glory".

3. Which NT and Catholic OT texts portray the dead as monitoring the progress of the living, cheering them on, and offering them aid.
(a) At Caesarea Philippi, Jesus asks His disciples who people think He really is and they guess that Jesus is Jeremiah the prophet (Matthew 16:14). How can anyone imagine Jesus is really the long-dead Jeremiah? The answer can be found in a waking vision of Judas Maccabaeus, the great Jewish leader of the Maccabean revolt against the Syrian Greeks in 175-163 BC (see 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 in the Catholic OT). In his vision, Judas sees the murdered high priest, Onias, who is monitoring the course of the revolt and is therefore engaged in a ministry of intercessory prayer in support of the Jewish freedom fighters. Onias introduces the late prophet Jeremiah as another prayer intercessor who has also been monitoring military affairs in Israel: "Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword and as he gave it, he addressed him thus: "Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries (15:15-16).""

This is speculation. Not to mention that the passage itself states that he saw a vision.

(b) "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us (Hebrews 12:1)."
Commentaries point out that this verse employs the poetic image of a great heavenly Coliseum in which distant spectators ("the cloud of witnesses") watch us compete in our athletic long races of endurance. Who exactly are these witnesses? The introductory "therefore" includes among them the OT heroes of faith discussed in chapter 11, who often suffered martyrdom, but this crowd likely includes all deceased saints. In Hebrews "witnesses" (Greek: "martyres") means "eyewitnesses." So the image is reminiscent of the vision of Onias the high priest and the prophet Jeremiah in 2 Maccabees 15:11-16, a text that serves as its background. The beloved dead saints monitor our difficult progress, cheer us on, and bring us aid. Consider this comment about the joy of "friends and neighbors" in the rescue of the lost sheep: "Just so, there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance (Luke 15:7)." In my view, this includes the joy of deceased saints over earthly repentance that they are monitoring.

It doesn't matter what commentaries point out. What matters is what the Scriptures say. Paul explains how they are witnesses in the Hebrews 11. It doesn't mean dead people are watching what is going on. John uses the word witness in a metaphorical sense too.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (1 Jn. 5:8 KJV)

Are the water and the blood watching what is happening in the world? Of course not, it's a metaphor.

Orthodox Christians believe in and at times recite the Apostles' Creed. But do you really understand the affirmation, "I believe in the communion of saints?" This affirmation is based in part on the unity of Christ's body in 1 Corinthians 12, but it also includes the unity and interconnectedness of living and deceased saints, including especially the intercession of dead saints on the basis of the precedents established by 2 Maccabees 15 and Hebrews 12:1.

The Scriptures say nothing about cumming with the dead. You're simply imposing that on the text. God forbid Israel from that very thing.

4. Where can we find an NDE and a possible OBE in Scripture?
As Stephen is about to be stoned to death, he has a sort of NDE vision of heaven, the glory of God, and Jesus (Acts 7:54-58) and Paul boasts of what seems to be an out of body experience in 2 Corinthians 12:1-8. Such experiences seem to be commonplace among the Corinthians.

And neither Stephen nor Paul were communicating with the dead. Stephen spoke to Jesus who is quite alive. Paul was caught up to Paradise and there aren't any people there so he couldn't be talking to the dead either.

 

[Deadworm]

Jesus seems to disagree with your theory: "He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” (Luke 16:31)

No, I think NDEs and ADCs are Jesus' most persuasive tools for reaching lost intellectuals. First of all, Jesus is not referring to apologetics.
Secondly, it's not about my "theory;" I said "in my experience," that is, in my experience of striving to open up skeptics to biblical and spiritual truths.
Thirdly, ADCs and NDEs provide a volume of cases with such impressive and varied verifications that the testimony of one revived corpse from the morgue cannot even remotely match this quality and quantity of evidence.

And Butch, I will systematically refute all your misunderstandings and misinterpretations after I post a few more powerfully evidential NDEs and ADCS.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

No, I think NDEs and ADCs are Jesus' most persuasive tools for reaching lost intellectuals. First of all, Jesus is not referring to apologetics.
Secondly, it's not about my "theory;" I said "in my experience," that is, in my experience of striving to open up skeptics to biblical and spiritual truths.
Thirdly, ADCs and NDEs provide a volume of cases with such impressive and varied verifications that the testimony of one revived corpse from the morgue cannot even remotely match this quality and quantity of evidence.

And Butch, I will systematically refute all your misunderstandings and misinterpretations after I post a few more powerfully evidential NDEs and ADCS.

Jesus was speaking of precisely what you are here. Not only in that instance, but in many others, and in many ways, Jesus disagrees with you. I would list them, but you obviously are hell-bent on this theory, so all of the evidence of scripture will be of no use, which is the very thing that can be said for a million "NDEs" & "ADCs" which are of no use in bringing sinners to repentance.

God spelled out the message and the method. I believe that you can intellectually understand that, but you will not accept it. You have a problem of the will. You can understand, but you simply don't want to comply. This is the same state that all sinners are in. They don't have an intellectual problem. They have a problem of the will. They are enemies of God. They hate Him, so they will never come to Him of their own accord. That's the problem, and it's a problem that can only be resolved by God's Spirit regenerating them, and that happens through His Word. This is all plainly laid out in scripture. I'll leave you with 3 texts for good measure:

And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers[b]—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

​

 

[Deadworm]

Like Butch's uninformed religious screed, your comments display uneducated hubris. I will refute you both comprehensively after I have posted more examples of different types of powerfully evidential NDEs and ADCs. Before these new posts, I think I should at least illustrate how poorly informed your pontifications really are by addressing just one of your absurd statements:

Brian: "A million "NDEs" & "ADCs" ...are of no use in bringing a sinners [sic!] to repentance."

To release your poorly informed prejudice, watch atheist Howard Storm's testimony of how he found Jesus and God through his NDE, a conversion which led to Storm becoming a fulltime Christian pastor:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...7AA67E3A845BAB2052417AA67E3A845BAB2&FORM=VIRE

The video offers just a taste of Storm's paranormal experiences, which are fully expressed in his enthralling book "My Descent into Death." which, among other things, discusses his later angelic apparitions during his first church worship service and a gift of a book poetry from an apparition of Catholic mystic Thomas Merton at Gethsemane monastery in Kentucky, the place where Merton lies buried.

Then read Kevin Williams survey of how NDEs transform atheists sometimes into Christians, at other times into theists with a burning spiritual quest:

http://www.near-death.com/religion/atheism/an-analysis-of-the-ndes-of-atheists.html

I don't agree with everything Williams says, but he illustrates how NDEs can open hearts to God when the Bible and Christ have previously been summarily dismissed.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Like Butch's uninformed religious screed, your comments display uneducated hubris. I will refute you both comprehensively after I have posted more examples of different types of powerfully evidential NDEs and ADCs. Before these new posts, I think I should at least illustrate how poorly informed your pontifications really are by addressing just one of your absurd statements:

Brian: "A million "NDEs" & "ADCs" ...are of no use in bringing a sinners [sic!] to repentance."

To release your poorly informed prejudice, watch atheist Howard Storm's testimony of how he found Jesus and God through his NDE, a conversion which led to Storm becoming a fulltime Christian pastor:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...7AA67E3A845BAB2052417AA67E3A845BAB2&FORM=VIRE

The video offers just a taste of Storm's paranormal experiences, which are fully expressed in his enthralling book "My Descent into Death." which, among other things, discusses his later angelic apparitions during his first church worship service and a gift of a book poetry from an apparition of Catholic mystic Thomas Merton at Gethsemane monastery in Kentucky, the place where Merton lies buried.

Then read Kevin Williams survey of how NDEs transform atheists sometimes into Christians, at other times into theists with a burning spiritual quest:

http://www.near-death.com/religion/atheism/an-analysis-of-the-ndes-of-atheists.html

I don't agree with everything Williams says, but he illustrates how NDEs can open hearts to God when the Bible and Christ have previously been summarily dismissed.

I'm out. You win. Had I noticed "Methodist" under faith, I would have never jumped in here or tried to reason with you. My mistake. Apologies.

 

[farout]

In my experience, the near- and post-death experiences that I will recount and discuss in this thread are more compelling for skeptics than more traditional Christian apologetics. But these paranormal experiences raise many questions about the extent to which they are compatible with biblical teaching and traditional Christian perspectives on the afterlife. Despite such problems, many skeptics have been motivated to reassess their anti-Christian stance through exposure to the most compelling of these NDEs (Near-death experiences) and ADCs (After-Death Communications). Will that be true on this site? I invite skeptics and believers alike to weigh in as the collective evidence from these cases mounts.

This thread will initially focus on unique evidence from 5 categories of NDEs (Near-Death Experiences) and ADCs (After-Death Communications):
(1) ADCs in which the Dead Drive a Vehicle to Help or Comfort the Percipient
(3) Artifacts Left as Evidence by the Deceased
(4) Encounters with Unknown Deceased People Whose Identity Is Later Verified
(5) Other Forms of Paranormal Verifications of NDEs

(1a) Most of you recall actor Telly Savalas, who starred as a tough detective in the TV series Kojak and had roles on several movies. Telly unexpectedly experienced the most remarkable kind of ADC. A man came back from the dead, driving a vehicle, and helped Telly get gas for his empty tank. Here is Telly's account:

1. 
   
   My friend Leonard Sleight had a similar encounter with his late son Jeff and Jeff's wife Karen, shortly after they and their two children were killed in a small place crash. I will share Leonard's testimony in my next post.

Hebrews 9:27 "And just as it is appointed for people to die once, and after this, judgment." Luke 16:24-31 tells the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Throughout all of Scripture it is stated once a person dies they are in the presence of God Almighty. There is no returning to Earth to warn family, or give genuine reports of what heaven is like or hell.

There are demons who can take on the appearance of people we know, and do things that people would do that are like our passed on fiends and family would do, People do have dreams that are very lifelike, and even report being in heaven seeing lights and the like. But the Scriptures contradicts these ACDs and NDEs. I will take the WORD over anyone's experience 100% of the time. Yes I do have a closed mind. The Bible is always truth, so that is what I trust.

 

[Deadworm]

farout: "Hebrews 9:27 "And just as it is appointed for people to die once, and after this, judgment."

So do you just throw away all the NT texts that deal with second chances to respond to Christ AFTER the judgment? By the way, you have misinterpreted Luke 16:24-31 in this respect. I will deal with all these texts when I've finished posting the evidential cases.

farout: "There are demons who can take on the appearance of people we know, and do things that people would do that are like our passed on fiends [!] and family would do."
So I guess you believe that demons want to serve Jesus and get atheists and other skeptics saved through NDEs, huh? Or did you even watch atheist Howard Storm's video testimony of how he got saved through an NDE contact with Jesus? Many skeptics have been converted through NDEs.

farout: "People do have dreams that are very lifelike, and even report being in heaven seeing lights and the like."

That's one reason why all the evidential verifications produced by NDEs and ADCs are so important for apologetics. You should really read all of a thread you presume to criticize and view the supporting videos.


farout: "But the Scriptures contradicts these ACDs and NDEs.

No, the Bible never even raises the question of NDEs and ADCs.

farout: "I will take the WORD over anyone's experience 100% of the time."

You might try reading my case here that "The Word" is quite compatible with NDEs and ADCs.

 

[Butch5]

No, I think NDEs and ADCs are Jesus' most persuasive tools for reaching lost intellectuals. First of all, Jesus is not referring to apologetics.
Secondly, it's not about my "theory;" I said "in my experience," that is, in my experience of striving to open up skeptics to biblical and spiritual truths.
Thirdly, ADCs and NDEs provide a volume of cases with such impressive and varied verifications that the testimony of one revived corpse from the morgue cannot even remotely match this quality and quantity of evidence.

And Butch, I will systematically refute all your misunderstandings and misinterpretations after I post a few more powerfully evidential NDEs and ADCS.

You can't refute what the Scriptures say. I'll be waiting.

 

[Deadworm]

Butch, are you honest enough to actually watch the posted video on how atheist Howard Storm's NDE landed him in Hell, and he was rescued from there and gloriously saved through his encounter with Jesus? There are numerous such NDE testimonies.

 

[Butch5]

Butch, are you honest enough to actually watch the posted video on how atheist Howard Storm's NDE landed him in Hell, and he was rescued from there and gloriously saved through his encounter with Jesus? There are numerous such NDE testimonies.

I'm as honest as they come. However, tell me why I should believe something that is contrary to Scripture. By "Hell" I assume you're not talking about the grave, correct? People give these accounts yet there is no way to verify what they say.

 

[Korah]

No sense listening to a Seventh Day Adventist.

 

[Deadworm]

In other words, Butch, you've answered my question; you're not honest enough to watch his testimony. I thought so. But if you were also honest enough to watch the other videos I posted and the examples I described, you would realize that, contrary to your claim, they provide very impressive verifications. If you're going to debate someone, you really are morally obligated to carefully read and watch what they present.

And Korah, I don't know why you're bigoted towards 7th Day Adventists and won't listen to what they have to say. In any case, this denomination has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[Butch5]

In other words, Butch, you've answered my question; you're not honest enough to watch his testimony. I thought so. But if you were also honest enough to watch the other videos I posted and the examples I described, you would realize that, contrary to your claim, they provide very impressive verifications. If you're going to debate someone, you really are morally obligated to carefully read and watch what they present.

And Korah, I don't know why you're bigoted towards 7th Day Adventists and won't listen to what they have to say. In any case, this denomination has nothing to do with this thread.

As I said, I'm as honest as they come. And actually I did watch the video. Tell me why should I believe what he said? I didn't see any of the "verifications" that you speak of. What I did hear were things that were contrary to Scripture. For instance, he said, 'when we go to heaven we are finally home'. That is not Scriptural. People don't go to Heaven. Also he talked about walking through space, how does one do that? I really don't know what you saw in that video that would make you believe it. I also didn't see anything that I think would convince a skeptic.

 

[Deadworm]

Reread what I said, Butch; I asked you to watch and read the video and post that document how atheists become believers through NDEs. I referred you to my other numbered NDEs and videos for the verifications. You have never acknowledged those verifications. I now believe that when I finish posting my NDE and ADC cases, I wlll actually bring you around to my way of thinking. How's that for a challenge? All I ask is that you read and view everything I've posted on this thread. I don't believe you've done that.

(3b) Rick was a former school superintendent in my city. He shared this ADC with me, at a time when his wife Elaine was dying of cancer. Elaine's niece Tami had recently died unexpectedly while a student at Washington State U. But her Mom's grief was mitigated by several full-body visions of Tami, during which Tami conversed with and comforted her Mom. But after several months of visions, Tami appeared one last time, this time only from the waist up. Tami explained that due to her progresss "on the other side," she was no longer permitted to appear to her Mom.

This Mom visited her sister Elaine and Rick in a Christmas family reunion. On Christmas Eve, Elaine asked Rick to go the the local mini-mart and buy a dozen eggs and a gallon of milk, andperhaps something else. Rick paid the cashier and received a dollar and change back. His attention was awestruck by the dollar bill. Written across it in thick black ink was "Tami" with a smiley face!!! Rick didn't even know the cashier and the cashier was oblivious to Tami's last message from Heaven. The correct spelling of the name "Tami" is very striking because this name is normally spelled "Tammy." This love message is a tender example of "an aritfact from heaven"--the writing, but perhaps not the dollar itself.

 

[Butch5]

Reread what I said, Butch; I asked you to watch and read the video and post that document how atheists become believers through NDEs. I referred you to my other numbered NDEs and videos for the verifications. You have never acknowledged those verifications. I now believe that when I finish posting my NDE and ADC cases, I wlll actually bring you around to my way of thinking. How's that for a challenge? All I ask is that you read and view everything I've posted on this thread. I don't believe you've done that.

(3b) Rick was a former school superintendent in my city. He shared this ADC with me, at a time when his wife Elaine was dying of cancer. Elaine's niece Tami had recently died unexpectedly while a student at Washington State U. But her Mom's grief was mitigated by several full-body visions of Tami, during which Tami conversed with and comforted her Mom. But after several months of visions, Tami appeared one last time, this time only from the waist up. Tami explained that due to her progresss "on the other side," she was no longer permitted to appear to her Mom.

This Mom visited her sister Elaine and Rick in a Christmas family reunion. On Christmas Eve, Elaine asked Rick to go the the local mini-mart and buy a dozen eggs and a gallon of milk, andperhaps something else. Rick paid the cashier and received a dollar and change back. His attention was awestruck by the dollar bill. Written across it in thick black ink was "Tami" with a smiley face!!! Rick didn't even know the cashier and the cashier was oblivious to Tami's last message from Heaven. The correct spelling of the name "Tami" is very striking because this name is normally spelled "Tammy." This love message is a tender example of "an aritfact from heaven"--the writing, but perhaps not the dollar itself.

You wont be able to bring me around to your way of thinking by presenting "evidence" that is contrary to Scripture. When you post a video of someone who tells us what it's going to be like when we get to Heaven, I'm going to disregard what he says. People don't go to Heaven and the Scriptures don't teach that. So, I have to assume that he either had a dream or is making things up at best. At worst I would suspect demonic activity.

 

[Butch5]

Deadworm,

Someone who is near death is likely in a very stressed frame of mind. Someone who have been near mortally wounded even more so. Why do you put so much credit in what they say? Look at when a crime is committed. The eye witnesses often give differing accounts of the same event. How can that be? Could it be that the mind when under extreme stress can play games with reality?

 

[Deadworm]

No. Butch, you lack the intellectual honesty and spiritual curiosity to watch and read all my video and website posts, even though I'd gladly watch any you posted. But I realize that you don't read academic Bible book commentaries, you don't know Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and you haven't studied the cultural background of the texts under discussion, background that helps establish their meaning. In fact, given the way you duck the obvious implication of the intercession and cries of the deceased martyrs in the Book of Revelation demonstrates that you haven't read any of the other ancient apocalypses that help scholars to understand them. Put simply, I think you're perverting the Word of God, and I owe it to you to demonstrate that to you. So continue to ignore the ADC and NDE verifications that I've provided, but be prepared for an in depth confrontation of your misinterpretations, when I've finished posting my evidential cases.

 

[FireDragon76]

And Korah, I don't know why you're bigoted towards 7th Day Adventists and won't listen to what they have to say. In any case, this denomination has nothing to do with this thread.

One of their distinctive doctrines is the denial of a conscious intermediate state after death.

 

[Butch5]

No. Butch, you lack the intellectual honesty and spiritual curiosity to watch and read all my video and website posts, even though I'd gladly watch any you posted. But I realize that you don't read academic Bible book commentaries, you don't know Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, and you haven't studied the cultural background of the texts under discussion, background that helps establish their meaning. In fact, given the way you duck the obvious implication of the intercession and cries of the deceased martyrs in the Book of Revelation demonstrates that you haven't read any of the other ancient apocalypses that help scholars to understand them. Put simply, I think you're perverting the Word of God, and I owe it to you to demonstrate that to you. So continue to ignore the ADC and NDE verifications that I've provided, but be prepared for an in depth confrontation of your misinterpretations, when I've finished posting my evidential cases.

I'm beginning to tire of you're questioning my honesty. You're barking up the wrong tree. It's not a lack of intellectual honest to avoid wasting time watching videos that counter Scripture. That you keep posting this stuff suggests to me that you believe Greek philosophical teachings rather than the Scriptures.

Please, Please, Please, give your refutation of what I've stated. I know the passages I've studied them over and over for years. I know the background, the historical settings, and beliefs. So, please give your refutation so that we can see that your understanding of Scripture in accord with your beliefs about NDE's rather than what the Scriptures teach.

 

[Deadworm]

So you at last admit that you haven't watched my videos or posted websites,, indeed, you probably haven't even carefully read and pondered all my evidentiary cases. I'm reminded of what one of the most famous and prolific Protestant theologians of the 20th century once said: "I don't ask people to agree with me. I don't even ask them to read me. But if they're going to criticize me, then I expect them to read me, and preferably all of me." You are like the JWs who come to my door, but when I try to pose questions and issues to them, they're barely paying attention, already thinking of the canned answer they need to give to the question.

One last time, Butch, I'm asking you to be honest and view my entire thread and its videos. I'll do the same for you, if requested to read your threads. Leave your carefully insulated theological Ghetto and breathe the refreshing air of honest and open inquiry. Ot just simply show courtesy by being a good listener and reader.