NDEs and ADCs: Awesome Verifications

[Deadworm]

In my experience, the near- and post-death experiences that I will recount and discuss in this thread are more compelling for skeptics than more traditional Christian apologetics. But these paranormal experiences raise many questions about the extent to which they are compatible with biblical teaching and traditional Christian perspectives on the afterlife. Despite such problems, many skeptics have been motivated to reassess their anti-Christian stance through exposure to the most compelling of these NDEs (Near-death experiences) and ADCs (After-Death Communications). Will that be true on this site? I invite skeptics and believers alike to weigh in as the collective evidence from these cases mounts.

This thread will initially focus on unique evidence from 5 categories of NDEs (Near-Death Experiences) and ADCs (After-Death Communications):
(1) ADCs in which the Dead Drive a Vehicle to Help or Comfort the Percipient
(2) NDEs Shared by Witnesses Present
(3) Artifacts Left as Evidence by the Deceased
(4) Encounters with Unknown Deceased People Whose Identity Is Later Verified
(5) Other Forms of Paranormal Verifications of NDEs

(1a) Most of you recall actor Telly Savalas, who starred as a tough detective in the TV series Kojak and had roles on several movies. Telly unexpectedly experienced the most remarkable kind of ADC. A man came back from the dead, driving a vehicle, and helped Telly get gas for his empty tank. Here is Telly's account:

My friend Leonard Sleight had a similar encounter with his late son Jeff and Jeff's wife Karen, shortly after they and their two children were killed in a small place crash. I will share Leonard's testimony in my next post.

 

[Deadworm]

The paranormal evidence doesn't get any better than this for the 2 men who had these ADC experiences.
(1a) Here is Telly Savalas's mind-boogling ghost encounter:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...8830B507DA76D0D269568830B507DA76D0D&FORM=VIRE

(1b) Next is my friend Leonard's equally supernatural ADC. Leonard was a wealthy retired construction baron and a member of the United Methodist church I pastored in the late 1990s in western New York. We became friends and I sometimes had dinner with him and his wife Helen when I paid him a visit. He was always worried about the health problems of family members, whom I accordingly visited. One Sunday, he asked me if I'd be willing to visit his dying cousin who lived across the highway from him. His cousin was an atheist recluse, who was dying of lung cancer, but wanted no visitors. But he was so depressed that Leonard wanted me to drop by to discuss whether we should intrude on him anyway to show that we about his suffering. When I arrived at Leonard's house, he was absent due to a shopping errand in town.

As I stood, talking to Helen, this thought struck me: Leonard was a real worry wart; yet he never seemed to grieve the loss of his son Jeff, Jeff's wife Karen, and their 2 children in a small plane crash. For some reason, I mentioned this perception to Helen and was intrigued by her reply. She said that Leonard's grieving had been healed by a postmortem encounter with Jeff, adding, "But he doesn't like to talk about it." The next time I met Leonard I was overcome with curiosity and asked if he'd be willing to talk about his ADC. Leonard seemed very uncomfortable with my intrusive request because he thought Id think he was crazy. This is the story he shared with me.

After the funerals, Leonard was about to drive Jeff's old pickup truck to town to do some errands. As he approached the end of his driveway, he saw someone's figure suddenly loom out of the ditch by the highway. To Leonard's dismay, it was his late son Jeff! Jeff walked up to the pickup and asked, "Can I take my old truck for a spin for old times' sake?" A numb Leonard complied and off Jeff drove north down Cty. Rte. 40 towards Rochester, NY. Jeff's conversation with his Dad had at least 2 purposes: (a) to reassure his Dad that he, his wife, and his kids were all together and OK; (b) to give Leonard the information he needed to tie up the loose ends of Jeff's investment history. After driving a couple of miles, Jeff inexplicably turned right onto a less traveled highway. After a few minutes, he stopped the pickup, turned to his Dad, and said, "I'm sorry, Dad, but I'm not permitted to drive any further." Leonard never learned who was orchestrating this ADC. God? An Angel? Then Jeff got out of the pickup, walked towards a clump of trees, and vanished.

This ADC left Leonard in a state of shock. In retrospect, it now seemed like an odd dream and his grief was not assuaged by the experience. In fact, the next day, he was so overcome with grief that he went for a walk down the path in the woods behind his house. At some point, he sat on a log, overcome with sorrow. Suddenly, he heard the sound of a twig or branch breaking. When he looked up, there stood Jeff's wife Karen. She gently scolded him: "Didn't we tell you we are together and OK? You get back in the house with Mom and comfort her!" This second ADC healed Leonard's grief.

After sharing this experience, Leonard had a pained expression on his face as he gazed at my skeptical expression. I apologized that I was just having trouble processing such an incredible story. I felt badly because it was I who had pressed him to share a story he was reluctant to tell. I asked him if he had shared these ADCs with his daughters, and he replied, "No, they'd find it too hard to believe just like you." Leonard recently passed away, and I learned that a daughter shared this ADCs at his funeral. So coming out of the closet, as it were, with me seems to have emboldened him to tell his daughters.

Leonard's ADCs are the most supernatural experiences I have ever heard from someone I know well. Yet this story does not inspire me as much as other paranormal experiences I have either had or encountered. I think the reason for this is that these ADCs are far more disanalogous to my ordinary life experience.

 

[beforHim]

Your first post is missing number 2), wonder what it is.

As for NDEs and ADCs, they might (might) show evidence of the supernatural, but by no means do they get us to Christianity, or even theism. Buddhists and Hindus and Wiccans have their own experiences as well. But this is good for naturalists.

And it's good to see a fellow Methodist on here!

 

[Deadworm]

Your first post is missing number 2), wonder what it is.

As for NDEs and ADCs, they might (might) show evidence of the supernatural, but by no means do they get us to Christianity, or even theism. Buddhists and Hindus and Wiccans have their own experiences as well. But this is good for naturalists.

The greatest enemy of Christian faith is secular materialism. The most compelling NDEs and ADCs are the most effective way to shatter that vitality sapping worldview. Also, they provide striking parallels to biblical resurrection reports and angelic visions. Together with the most evidential paranormal experiences (healings, premonitions, etc.) they are the most effective rational tool for persuading skeptics, though they are no substitute for biblical understanding and traditional Christian apologetics. Stay tuned for more powerfully evidential NDEs and ADCs.

 

[beforHim]

The greatest enemy of Christian faith is secular materialism.

As far as looking strictly at world views- in America yes, you're correct. Go to India or the Middle east, and you'll have other enemies. I don't want to necessarily nitpick, I just want to be clear. I'd say something like, "The greatest enemy of the Christian faith of the modern westernized culture, is secular materialism."

Also, they provide striking parallels to biblical resurrection reports and angelic visions.

I don't see them as being as parallel as you do. How does one person seeing and communicating with dead relatives, parallel God Incarnate communicating with people and groups of people over the period of a few weeks? How does someone seeing a dead relative, parallel to the stories about angels- leading people out of jails through locked doors; disappearing into flames in the sky; grabbing and shoving people, blinding others. Your rhetoric just seems a little strong.

I do see that you said, "though they are no substitute", so please take my criticism as kind and constructive. Hopefully my tone doesn't seem rude or anything

 

[Deadworm]

sbeforHim: "I don't see them as being as parallel as you do. How does one person seeing and communicating with dead relatives, parallel God Incarnate communicating with people and groups of people over the period of a few weeks?

(2) Your comments are timely because, though I absent--mindedly neglected to type in (2) provides more immediate evidence of postmortem survival than Jesus' resurrection appearances. In so doing, though not even remotely as important as Jesus' resurrection, shared NDEs and shared ADCs provide powerful support for the possibility of Jesus' resurrection appearances. How? Because they are easier to verify through direct contact with the eyewitnesses and provide far more verifiable cases, even including artifacts provided from the other world!

(2) SHARED NDEs and ADCs:
(2a) Dr. Raymond Moody has co-authored a new book on this type of NDE and indeed has experienced a shared NDE at his own mother's passing:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...39ED7A4DC705FEC6705639ED7A4DC705FEC&FORM=VIRE

In shared NDEs, one or more witnesses actually witness the departing spirit of their loved one and join them in part of their heavenward journey. They often experience such elements as the accompanying spirits, the journey through the tunnel, the Being of Light, even the dying loved one's past life review! Such shared NDEs decisively refute efforts to explain away NDEs on the basis of hallucinations of the dying brain triggered by oxygen deprivation and imply how primitive materialistic science really is by virtue of its failure to take spiritual dimensions into account.

(2b) Shared NDEs can be supplemented by shared ADCs that can even include an artifact provided to loved ones from the realm of spirit. The quotation below is taken from "Lighted Passage (1950)," a book authored by Presbyterian minister, Howell Vincent, whose daughter Rae and her new husband Herbert were killed on their honeymoon in a car accident. The book mostly deals with his daughter Rae's life, and the ADC irecounted on p. 25 would hardly be expected from a Presbyterian minister. The ADC is as miraculous as Leonard's ride with his deceased son, Jeff, and is reminiscent of the shared Resurrection appearances of Jesus in the Gospels. I recount only one of Rae's 2 ADCs:

"On at least two occasions this radiant mother (Nellie) had come to Rea in visible, tangible form and talked with her. In 1933, I was privileged to be present at one of these heavenly visits by Mother Nellie. Together with Rea, I talked with Nellie, fully recognizing her face and form and voice. I saw her place her hand on Rea's head in blessing, and I saw her give Rea a flower, a calendula, which we pressed and kept. At that time three other members of our family were present, including Rea's second mother, Agnes, and they all saw Nellie and talked with her, as Rea and I did. We were all wide awake and walked about the room with Nellie (p. 25)."

The book was mailed to me by an agnostic friend, Roger, who works for a large Federal government agency. Roger in turn received the book from a co-worker who is a relative of Rev. Howell Vincent. Though he remains an agnostic, Roger's skepticism was shaken to the core by this book.

Roger and I became friendly on another website and he is the only poster I have met personally. I drove up from Buffalo, NY, to Fort Erie, Ontario to spend an afternoon with him. He took me to a wooded area where, as an 8-year-old, he had an experience very similar to an ADC. He and his young friend were looking for pollywogs near woods, when a stranger approached them, wrapped his arm in a choke hold around Roger's neck, and began dragging him into the woods. Just then, a women in a red dress appeared out of nowhere nearby and asked, "Is there a problem here?" She spooked the man and he released his grip and ran to his truck. When Roger turned to thank the woman, she had vanished, apparently dematerializing It was a long walk from her convertible to Roger; so she didn't have time to span that distance and get in her car. Roger feels compelled to view this as a guardian angel sent to save his life. What frustrates me is that this experience and Howell Vincent's ADC seem insufficient to dislodge Roger from his agnosticism.

 

[Deadworm]

(2c) A UNIQUE SHARED NDE:

Albert Baldeo was a friend of my Uncle Larry. Perhaps he was also the most universally respected pastor in Kelowna, BC, Canada--so well respected that he was given a weekly column in the local newspaper. In one column he shared this shared NDE, an NDE which I confirmed in a private conversation with him. Albert died a few years ago.

Albert's father lay dying in a nursing home. Suddenly he sat up, gazed intently at some invisible person, and shouted, "Hurry up, brother! Hurry up!" Within a few seconds he passed away. Albert noted the exact time of death--11:45 AM on Tuesday. Unknown to Albert, his Dad's brother was also dying in a nursing home 10 miles away in the presence of loved ones. Just before he died, he sat up and shouted, ""Wait for my, brother! Wait for me!" When he then passed away, loved ones noted the time--11:45 AM, Tuesday. Yes, both brothers died at the same time and had a conversation which only makes sense and can only be pieced together when family members shared notes from both nursing homes. Apparently, as these brothers were detaching from their bodies, their center of consciousness was in a nonspatial realm which allowed them to converse, even though they were physically 10 miles apart.

 

[Deadworm]

(3) ARTIFACTS LEFT AS EVIDENCE BY THE DECEASED

In the shared ADE in (2b), Nellie gave her family an etheric flower, a calendula, which they kept and preserved. So now I will share other accounts of such materializations.

(3a) Dr. Lermer shared this experience with us. He was at a female patient's deathbed in Houston, when he witnessed a light over her body and heard her talking to some etheric being present to take her away. But before she passed, she cupped her hands to receive something and beckoned Dr. Lermer to come and take it. It was a 4-leaf clover, reminiscent of Nellie's calendula. After he received this, the woman passed away. Curious, Dr. Lermer put the 4-leaf clover inside a jar and kept it under observation. To his astonishment, he observed it slowly dematerialize over a 2 week period, evidently because it was made of etheric matter.

In my former 2-church UMC charge in western NY, I once preached a sermon on the Transfiguration. At the sermon's conclusion, I found myself saying, "And some of you will have a mountaintop experience very shortly. I was surprised to hear those words come out of my mouth and immediately regretted them.

But the next day, John, a parishioner and a Kodak executive , contacted me to discuss a strange discovery he had made on a tiny ledge well up the mountain, a nice ring that fit him perfectly. While I was pondering the unlikelihood of this discovery, my worship chairman, Bob, called to tell me that his mother's ring, which had vanished 30 years ago, suddenly materialized on the bedspread of his made bed. Bob had just moved into this house 4 years ago. He set the ring aside to show me, but it dematerialized the next day. To his astonishment, his friend later told him that a family ring had suddenly materialized in his home as well!

It struck me that John's discovery of the ring high up on a mountain ledge was the fulfillment of my prophecy of an immediate mountaintop experience. But the materialization and later dematerialization of the ring owned by Bob's late mother was apparently intended to cast John's discovery in the light of another mountaintop experience. I had just preached on the Transfiguration, during which Moses and Elijah suddenly materialize to be present with Jesus, Peter, James, and John, and then dematerialize. I had recently preached a sermon on the Parable of the Prodigal Son in which I stressed the symbolism of the ring of sonship that the Father gave his returning son. I wondered if Nellie's etheric canlendula had also dematerialized from the scrap book. I have no way of finding the answer now.

 

[Butch5]

Since it isn't possible for the dead to communicate with the living the only possible explanation is that these encounters are either angels or demons. They are not dead people. The Scripture are clear on what a man is and what happens to him when he is dead.

 

[Deadworm]

Since it isn't possible for the dead to communicate with the living...

To help you save face with this misguided pontification about Scripture, I pose 4 questions to you in the hope that you can figure out the answers. I'll wait a few days to see if you can, and then provide the answers.

1. In the OT where does a dead spirit communicate with the living?
2. In what 2 Gospel stories do dead spirits return to appear to the living?
3. Which NT and Catholic OT text portray the dead as monitoring the progress of the living, cheering them on, and offering them aid. [2 Hints: (a) There is an allusion to this Catholic OT event in Mathew. (b) Do you believe in the Apostles' Creed? Do you know what each affirmation in it means?]
4. Where can we find an NDE and a possible OBE in Scripture?
None of these 4 questions has Jesus' Easter appearances in mind.

 

[Butch5]

To help you save face with this misguided pontification about Scripture, I pose 4 questions to you in the hope that you can figure out the answers. I'll wait a few days to see if you can, and then provide the answers.

1. In the OT where does a dead spirit communicate with the living?
2. In what 2 Gospel stories do dead spirits return to appear to the living?
3. Which NT and Catholic OT text portray the dead as monitoring the progress of the living, cheering them on, and offering them aid. [2 Hints: (a) There is an allusion to this Catholic OT event in Mathew. (b) Do you believe in the Apostles' Creed? Do you know what each affirmation in it means?]
4. Where can we find an NDE and a possible OBE in Scripture?
None of these 4 questions has Jesus' Easter appearances in mind.

I don't have to save face. The Scriptures are clear about the dead. They are dead. You asked two questions about dead spirits. Where in Scripture do you ever see anything about a dead spirit? If we looked at the passages you're referring too I'd bet what we'd find is that things are being read into the text.

 

[Deadworm]

In other words, you don't know and are too close-minded even to investigate. OK, before I answer the 4 questions for you, will you at least explain what you mean? Are you just telling me you believe in "soul sleep?"

 

[FireDragon76]

I think NDE's, if they are real experiences of what happens after death, are potential challenges to things some Christians might hold dear as part of the package we call faith, particularly the exclusivity of salvation:

Anita Moorjani had a near-death experience, and wrote a book about it ( Dying to be Me ). Anita is a nominal Hindu who was dying of cancer in her home in Hong Kong, had a period where her body was collapsing, went into a tunnel with light at the end and talked to dead friends and relatives who told her it was not her time. A mysterious remission of her cancer occurred within days after she was revived. Her NDE was a lot like western accounts, but seems interpreted through nominal Hindu influences. Honestly, I read her book and I'm not sure exactly what the message is, except perhaps to believe in your self-worth despite the pressures of your upbringing or society- it reads like a biography in many ways. But it's been a while since I read it.

Another book to read is this one, from an Episcopalian pastor coming to terms with the accounts of his parishoners who had near death experiences, and what they meant for his Christian faith :

 

[Butch5]

In other words, you don't know and are too close-minded even to investigate. OK, before I answer the 4 questions for you, will you at least explain what you mean? Are you just telling me you believe in "soul sleep?"

I'm not close minded. If I was I'd still believe that man was a spirit and/or soul that could live on after the death of the body and that he would would go to either Heaven or to Hell to be tortured forever.

However, I am interested in where you find dead spirits in the Scriptures. The Scriptures tell us that the dead are dead. Since that is the case they cannot be communicating with anyone.

 

[dysert]

To help you save face with this misguided pontification about Scripture, I pose 4 questions to you in the hope that you can figure out the answers. I'll wait a few days to see if you can, and then provide the answers.

1. In the OT where does a dead spirit communicate with the living?
2. In what 2 Gospel stories do dead spirits return to appear to the living?
3. Which NT and Catholic OT text portray the dead as monitoring the progress of the living, cheering them on, and offering them aid. [2 Hints: (a) There is an allusion to this Catholic OT event in Mathew. (b) Do you believe in the Apostles' Creed? Do you know what each affirmation in it means?]
4. Where can we find an NDE and a possible OBE in Scripture?
None of these 4 questions has Jesus' Easter appearances in mind.

I hope no one minds if I take a shot...

1. 1 Sam. 28, where the spirit of Samuel is apparently called up by the witch at En Dor. (This one has always bugged me.)
2. Transfiguration.
3. Sorry, but I don't know Catholic stuff.
4. Would you be talking about Paul's visit to the third heaven in 2 Cor. 12?

 

[Butch5]

I hope no one minds if I take a shot...

1. 1 Sam. 28, where the spirit of Samuel is apparently called up by the witch at En Dor. (This one has always bugged me.)
2. Transfiguration.
3. Sorry, but I don't know Catholic stuff.
4. Would you be talking about Paul's visit to the third heaven in 2 Cor. 12?

I think they are likely the ones being mentioned.

 

[Deadworm]

The Scriptures tell us that the dead are dead. Since that is the case they cannot be communicating...Since it isn't possible for the dead to communicate with the living the only possible explanation is that these encounters are either angels or demons. They are not dead people.

Your dogmatic claims remind me of some Fundamentalists who argue that Satan created and planted dinosaur fossils in the ground to deceive sinners.
This post will refute your claims. A follow-up post will answer the 4 questions posed in Post #10 and defend ADCs and NDEs on biblical grounds.

Jesus:
(1) Luke 16:22-31: In this parable, the rich man, fully conscious in Hades, converses with Abraham. Such conversations can also be found in 1 Enoch.

(2) Mark 12:26-27: "Have you not read in the Book of Moses in the story about the bush, how God said to him (Moses), "I am [not "was") the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" He is God not of the dead but of the living. You (Butch ) are quite wrong." The clear implications is that the long dead OT Patriarchs were alive at the time of Moses.

(3) Luke 23:43: "Jesus replied [to the penitent thief): 'Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.'" "Paradise" means "park" or "garden." Jesus comforts the dying thief with the assurance that He will join Jesus, fully conscious in Paradise to enjoy its beauty.

(4) John 11:25-26: "Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and whoever lives and believes in me will never die."
By implication, death is just a doorway to continuous consious life.

Paul:
(5) 2 Corinthians 5:6-8: "...While we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord...Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
Paul expresses the preference to be at home, by implication fully conscious with the Lord, rather than at home in his body. He envisages no interim soul sleep state.
(6) Philippians 1:22-24: "For to me living is Christ, dying is gain...I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better; but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you." Again, Paul implies that it is "far better" to die because that brings him immediately , fully conscious, into the Lord's presence.

(7) John in Revelation 6:9-11: Already in heaven, white-robed Christian martyrs in John's day complain about "how long" it is taken for God to vindicate them and engage in intercessory prayer for this to happen sooner rather than later.

 

[Butch5]

Your dogmatic claims remind me of some Fundamentalists who argue that Satan created and planted dinosaur fossils in the ground to deceive sinners.
This post will refute your claims. A follow-up post will answer the 4 questions posed in Post #10 and defend ADCs and NDEs on biblical grounds.

Jesus:
(1) Luke 16:22-31: In this parable, the rich man, fully conscious in Hades, converses with Abraham. Such conversations can also be found in 1 Enoch.

(2) Mark 12:26-27: "Have you not read in the Book of Moses in the story about the bush, how God said to him (Moses), "I am [not "was") the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?" He is God not of the dead but of the living. You (Butch ) are quite wrong." The clear implications is that the long dead OT Patriarchs were alive at the time of Moses.

(3) Luke 23:43: "Jesus replied [to the penitent thief): 'Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.'" "Paradise" means "park" or "garden." Jesus comforts the dying thief with the assurance that He will join Jesus, fully conscious in Paradise to enjoy its beauty.

(4) John 11:25-26: "Those who believe in me, even though they die, will live, and whoever lives and believes in me will never die."
By implication, death is just a doorway to continuous consious life.

Paul:
(5) 2 Corinthians 5:6-8: "...While we are at home in the body, we are away from the Lord...Yes, we do have confidence, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord."
Paul expresses the preference to be at home, by implication fully conscious with the Lord, rather than at home in his body. He envisages no interim soul sleep state.
(6) Philippians 1:22-24: "For to me living is Christ, dying is gain...I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better; but to remain in the flesh is more necessary for you." Again, Paul implies that it is "far better" to die because that brings him immediately , fully conscious, into the Lord's presence.

(7) John in Revelation 6:9-11: Already in heaven, white-robed Christian martyrs in John's day complain about "how long" it is taken for God to vindicate them and engage in intercessory prayer for this to happen sooner rather than later.

These are the typical passages that are cited to try to prove that man is somehow not dead when he is dead. However, they when understood in context they do not say what you are preposing. It is only by taking them out of context that one can make then appear to say what you are proposing.

The parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, when understood in context is not about the afterlife, but rather is about the destruction of the priesthood.

The passage in Mark when compiled with the account in the other Gospels also will show that Jesus was speaking of the resurrection and not the current state of those men.

The passage in John 11 states right there in the passage that they first died and then lived and shall never die. It's talking about them being resurrected and then never dying.

In 2 Cor 5 Paul is saying the opposite of your claim. At home there doesn't mean his physical body. Read n context can see that Paul doesn't want to be found naked, without a body.

Regarding Philippians, no Paul doesn't give any indication that he would "immediately" be with Christ. He give no time element. Immediate, is your word.

Regarding Rev 6, we're looking at a book which uses a lot of figurative language. The first thing we have to determine is whether or not this literal. So, why are these "souls" under the alter?

In addition to these passages not teaching that the dead are somehow alive, there is the fact that there are quite a few passages of Scripture that you have to reconcile with your interpretation of the above passages. David said,

3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. (Ps. 146:3-4 KJV)

How is a person conscious with the Lord if his thoughts perish the very day he dies?

4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? (Ps. 6:4-5 KJV)

Here David says in death there is no remembrance of God. How can a man go and be with the Lord when there is not remembrance of the Lord in Death. Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees, I'm quite sure he was aware of these words of David. How then do you argue that Paul expected to go immediately to be with the Lord at death? The answer is that he didn't. We know what Paul believed about what happens to the dead. He said to the Corinthians,

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Cor. 15:12-18 KJV)

Notice what Paul said, if there is no resurrection then those who have died in Christ have perished. He didn't say they were up in Heaven with Jesus or God, he said they'd perished. The "only" hope Paul holds out for these believers is the resurrection, not a disembodied experience with the Lord.

These are just a few passages, there are more. You have to reconcile these along with the ones you posted. You see, I've done that already which is why I said what I said in the first post. The dead are dead. All of the passages you posted above are easily explained in a way that fits perfectly with the Biblical teaching that the dead are dead.

We can take any of those passages and address them more deeply if you're so inclined.

 

[Deadworm]

All of Butch's comments ignore or miss the point of the texts I discuss and no modern academic commentary supports them. I encourage other readers to read our debate and weigh in to provide context for my forthcoming refutation of Butch's interpretations. Meanwhile, I will move directly to the answers to my 4 questions that, I think, provide a biblical warrant for NDEs and ADCs.

1. In the OT where does a dead spirit communicate with the living?
In 1 Samuel 28:8-29, Saul communicates with the deceased prophet Samuel through the medium of Endor. 28:14 makes it clear that this really is the spirit of Samuel! So if Samuel can communicate through a medium, why can't our beloved dead communicate with us through NDEs and ADCs? True, the Bible condemns mediumship as the means for such communications, but it doesn't condemn the claim that the dead can take the initiative in contacting the living.

2. In what 2 Gospel stories do dead spirits return to appear to the living?
First, in Jesus' Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appear to Peter, James, and John and discuss Jesus' future fate (Luke 9:28-36). If Moses' spirit can return from the dead to appear to the disciples, why can't our beloved dead manifest to us in NDEs and ADCs? Second, at the moment of Jesus' death, some of the saintly dead are resurrected and they appear to Jerusalem residents until after Jesus' resurrection (Matthew 27:52-53).

3. Which NT and Catholic OT texts portray the dead as monitoring the progress of the living, cheering them on, and offering them aid.
(a) At Caesarea Philippi, Jesus asks His disciples who people think He really is and they guess that Jesus is Jeremiah the prophet (Matthew 16:14). How can anyone imagine Jesus is really the long-dead Jeremiah? The answer can be found in a waking vision of Judas Maccabaeus, the great Jewish leader of the Maccabean revolt against the Syrian Greeks in 175-163 BC (see 2 Maccabees 15:11-16 in the Catholic OT). In his vision, Judas sees the murdered high priest, Onias, who is monitoring the course of the revolt and is therefore engaged in a ministry of intercessory prayer in support of the Jewish freedom fighters. Onias introduces the late prophet Jeremiah as another prayer intercessor who has also been monitoring military affairs in Israel: "Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword and as he gave it, he addressed him thus: "Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries (15:15-16).""

(b) "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight and the sin that clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us (Hebrews 12:1)."
Commentaries point out that this verse employs the poetic image of a great heavenly Coliseum in which distant spectators ("the cloud of witnesses") watch us compete in our athletic long races of endurance. Who exactly are these witnesses? The introductory "therefore" includes among them the OT heroes of faith discussed in chapter 11, who often suffered martyrdom, but this crowd likely includes all deceased saints. In Hebrews "witnesses" (Greek: "martyres") means "eyewitnesses." So the image is reminiscent of the vision of Onias the high priest and the prophet Jeremiah in 2 Maccabees 15:11-16, a text that serves as its background. The beloved dead saints monitor our difficult progress, cheer us on, and bring us aid. Consider this comment about the joy of "friends and neighbors" in the rescue of the lost sheep: "Just so, there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over 99 righteous persons who need no repentance (Luke 15:7)." In my view, this includes the joy of deceased saints over earthly repentance that they are monitoring.

Orthodox Christians believe in and at times recite the Apostles' Creed. But do you really understand the affirmation, "I believe in the communion of saints?" This affirmation is based in part on the unity of Christ's body in 1 Corinthians 12, but it also includes the unity and interconnectedness of living and deceased saints, including especially the intercession of dead saints on the basis of the precedents established by 2 Maccabees 15 and Hebrews 12:1.

4. Where can we find an NDE and a possible OBE in Scripture?
As Stephen is about to be stoned to death, he has a sort of NDE vision of heaven, the glory of God, and Jesus (Acts 7:54-58) and Paul boasts of what seems to be an out of body experience in 2 Corinthians 12:1-8. Such experiences seem to be commonplace among the Corinthians.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

In my experience, the near- and post-death experiences that I will recount and discuss in this thread are more compelling for skeptics than more traditional Christian apologetics. But these paranormal experiences raise many questions about the extent to which they are compatible with biblical teaching and traditional Christian perspectives on the afterlife. Despite such problems, many skeptics have been motivated to reassess their anti-Christian stance through exposure to the most compelling of these NDEs (Near-death experiences) and ADCs (After-Death Communications). Will that be true on this site? I invite skeptics and believers alike to weigh in as the collective evidence from these cases mounts.

This thread will initially focus on unique evidence from 5 categories of NDEs (Near-Death Experiences) and ADCs (After-Death Communications):
(1) ADCs in which the Dead Drive a Vehicle to Help or Comfort the Percipient
(3) Artifacts Left as Evidence by the Deceased
(4) Encounters with Unknown Deceased People Whose Identity Is Later Verified
(5) Other Forms of Paranormal Verifications of NDEs

(1a) Most of you recall actor Telly Savalas, who starred as a tough detective in the TV series Kojak and had roles on several movies. Telly unexpectedly experienced the most remarkable kind of ADC. A man came back from the dead, driving a vehicle, and helped Telly get gas for his empty tank. Here is Telly's account:

1. 
   
   My friend Leonard Sleight had a similar encounter with his late son Jeff and Jeff's wife Karen, shortly after they and their two children were killed in a small place crash. I will share Leonard's testimony in my next post.

Jesus seems to disagree with your theory: "He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’” (Luke 16:31)