NC towns cancel Christmas parades after protests over Confederate group

durangodawood

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1. Responding in kind to your comment"Destruction of propaganda monuments is ok tho. I mean some people may prefer that giant statue of Saddam Hussein still tower over the square in Baghdad. But my sense is that most feel he did not deserve a place of honor." Completely off point. We aren't Baghdad and don't have a dictator who is killing millions of Americans.
Yeah Saddam was a brutal tyrant. But how much worse is that than wanting to literally own other humans as property? Plus, it was the principle we were discussing about propaganda monuments vs historical monuments. And if the Saddam statue illustrates the principle, then its a valid example for discussion.

2. Pelosi is a big issue.
Yes she is!.... but her opinion on this matter is neither here nor there. I'm not quoting her. Why are you? I mean who cares what she thinks about this.

3. I dont think so.
You dont think I would support you in opposing a public square "P*** Christ"?
Or you dont think you got the artist wrong?
Either one, youd be wrong.
 
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Speedwell

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Biscuits and gravy? Sweet tea? Being southern? How should I know?

The point is that they don't see it as racist. That means all this nonsense about slavery and racism is unfounded propaganda. If they don't see it as racist...then they aren't defending it because they're racist.
"They don't see it as racist" is not a disqualifier. Racism is not necessarily an intentional act. It is often a matter of ingrained attitudes and opinions which may not even be recognized by the holder as racist. The person, for example, who seriously believes that blacks were better off under their benign Christian owners than at any time before or since is just as racist--and in perhaps a more insidious way--than an angry white man yelling the n-word in the street.
 
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rjs330

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Am I consistent? Yes, I hope so anyway. As for "the left", I dont answer for every dumb thing someone on the left says.

I guess I mean do you call out people for using the phobia assignment? Or have you used that yourself?
 
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rjs330

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Only those who subscribe to the "Lost Cause" mythology. But ask yourself: where do the majority of conservative white Evangelicals live?

If you are going to accuse the majority of white Christian conservatives of down playing slavery in order to subscribe to a noble south you better have some proof of that. Do you have some evidence that the majority of white conservative Christians believe that?
 
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rjs330

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What are they proud of?
They can be proud of any number of things that have nothing to do with slavery. Slavery was part of this country yet we are still proud of our country, because we have things to be proud of despite our faults.
 
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durangodawood

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I guess I mean do you call out people for using the phobia assignment? Or have you used that yourself?
I try to keep my use of ad-hominem to a minimum and deploy it only where people really deserve it.

Best to look at my actual posts if youre interested.
 
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Speedwell

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If you are going to accuse the majority of white Christian conservatives of down playing slavery in order to subscribe to a noble south you better have some proof of that. Do you have some evidence that the majority of white conservative Christians believe that?
"White conservative Christian" is not quite the same as "white conservative Evangelical Christian who lives in the South and subscribes to the Lost Cause mythology." Part of the Lost Cause trope is downplaying slavery in order to regard the Confederacy as the high point of a golden age.
 
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Ana the Ist

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"They don't see it as racist" is not a disqualifier. Racism is not necessarily an intentional act.

Well we're talking about racist beliefs and actions....and yes, they have to be intentional. I can't even think of an example of someone being "accidentally racist".

It is often a matter of ingrained attitudes and opinions which may not even be recognized by the holder as racist.

....but they have to be racist. We're either talking about beliefs or actions based on skin color. If the actions or beliefs aren't based on race...it's not racism.

The person, for example, who seriously believes that blacks were better off under their benign Christian owners than at any time before or since is just as racist--and in perhaps a more insidious way--than an angry white man yelling the n-word in the street.

Fun...we're talking about what people think the Confederate flag represents though. According to the survey, the majority see it as a symbol of southern pride.
 
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Speedwell

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They can be proud of any number of things that have nothing to do with slavery. Slavery was part of this country yet we are still proud of our country, because we have things to be proud of despite our faults.
The Confederacy was all about slavery.
 
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Speedwell

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Well we're talking about racist beliefs and actions....and yes, they have to be intentional. I can't even think of an example of someone being "accidentally racist".
I gave you an example. Racism is sometimes embodied in attitudes that the holder is not aware are racist.



.
Fun...we're talking about what people think the Confederate flag represents though. According to the survey, the majority see it as a symbol of southern pride.
And a part of what they are proud of may be attitudes about race. Regarding the Old South as a beneficent and ethical way of life is racist.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I gave you an example. Racism is sometimes embodied in attitudes that the holder is not aware are racist.

Lol that is intentionally racist though...it doesn't matter if the person holding that belief doesn't know it's racist.

I'm not sure why you're bringing this up anyway....nobody in the OP expressed any racist beliefs, whether they realized it or not.



And a part of what they are proud of may be attitudes about race.

I'd suggest you reread my earlier post about not assuming people are racist. Remember when you said that was a good idea?

Perhaps you should be asking yourself why you seem to believe people are racist despite the lack of any evidence.
 
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SummerMadness

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Germany isn't a country defined by antisemitism, but the era during the Third Reich certainly is. Likewise, the Confederacy was defined by slavery. Maybe if they had stuck around longer, they might have done other things, but when you lose a war you defined by your crime against humanity, pretending that crime was immaterial or not part of your ethos is just a blatant lie. The Confederacy was built on racism, and for 100 years following the war, they continued that campaign of terrorism and oppression.
 
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rjs330

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So there is nothing the south can be proud of? Perhaps they ought to come up with a different flag to fly. I do get the dislike of the flag. It did represent a south that went to war to protect their way of life of slavery. Much like the Nazi flag represents a time of Nazism. We'd wonder what Germans were doing if they marched carrying a Nazi flag. So, I think people have a right to an opinion that says they shouldn't do that. And I'd also understand if the Jews were offended by it.

Perhaps if southerners want to show their southern pride they should find a different or new symbol.
 
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Speedwell

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Lol that is intentionally racist though...it doesn't matter if the person holding that belief doesn't know it's racist.

I'm not sure why you're bringing this up anyway....nobody in the OP expressed any racist beliefs, whether they realized it or not.





I'd suggest you reread my earlier post about not assuming people are racist. Remember when you said that was a good idea?

Perhaps you should be asking yourself why you seem to believe people are racist despite the lack of any evidence.
I said "may be" not "are."
 
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Speedwell

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So there is nothing the south can be proud of?
I don't know. Regional pride seems an odd thing to me. In this case the pride seems to be in the courage and determination shown in sustaining a bloody rebellion in defense of slavery, which seems even stranger. The courage and determination were real and worthy, perhaps, of continuing pride, but the goal was despicable.
 
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rjs330

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I don't think government entities ought to be flying the flag of the Confederacy due to what it represents. Anymore than German governments should fly the Nazi flag. Unless if course you are willing to stand up for what the flag represents.

But people ought to be able to fly and March with any flag they like. In America we have the right to peacably assemble. If you want to march with the Confederate flag and say you don't believe in slavery and do not support white supremacists or racism then for it.

I have a right to think it's dumb. But I don't believe it should be shut down. I also think it's absolutely wrong to assume racism when nothing they are saying is racist or the way they live and believe is racist.

We shouldn't be trying to shut people down just because we are offended.
 
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Speedwell

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I don't think government entities ought to be flying the flag of the Confederacy due to what it represents. Anymore than German governments should fly the Nazi flag. Unless if course you are willing to stand up for what the flag represents.

But people ought to be able to fly and March with any flag they like. In America we have the right to peacably assemble. If you want to march with the Confederate flag and say you don't believe in slavery and do not support white supremacists or racism then for it.

I have a right to think it's dumb. But I don't believe it should be shut down. I also think it's absolutely wrong to assume racism when nothing they are saying is racist or the way they live and believe is racist.

We shouldn't be trying to shut people down just because we are offended.
I know and agree, but the discussion about it here has been interesting. I have taken the position that it is possible to understand why display of the "confederate" flag might be seen as racism. I have also taken the position that there is a considerable overlap in the South of conservative white Evangelicals and those subscribing to the "Lost Cause" mythology. I have tried to be careful in limiting and specifying my generalizations, but the response has been in the nature of, "You are accusing all...How dare you!" Very interesting.
 
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SummerMadness

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I know and agree, but the discussion about it here has been interesting. I have taken the position that it is possible to understand why display of the "confederate" flag might be seen as racism. I have also taken the position that there is a considerable overlap in the South of conservative white Evangelicals and those subscribing to the "Lost Cause" mythology. I have tried to be careful in limiting and specifying my generalizations, but the response has been in the nature of, "You are accusing all...How dare you!" Very interesting.
Further, I have noticed a pattern with these discussions. When it comes to discussing the racism of the Confederacy, it bounces between to arguments. First is the adamant denial that the South and racism are intertwined. There are multiple excuses here: percentage of Southerners that owned slaves while ignoring the fact the society overall supported the institution; claims that the Confederacy was not built on racism while ignoring they explicitly write African slavery into their constitution; using the "I have a black friend" argument while ignoring that lion share of African Americans see the Confederate flag as racist (many having lived through the terrorism that followed the Civil War to present day).

When all these arguments have been thoroughly debunked, it becomes the "I support free speech and I offer no opinions on their position." This argument would be okay if not for the hypocrisy, as these same folks provide their opinion on other groups they oppose. How many of them complain about Black Lives Matter or Code Pink? These "neutral" arbiters suddenly become quite vocal. Does this mean these folks are racist? Not necessarily, but their complacency with a status quo that props up obviously racist institutions and/or ideologies makes addressing such racism more daunting. But I have seen something new in this thread, there is now an embrace of those expressing neo-Nazi views, now that's a new one.
 
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Ironhold

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So there is nothing the south can be proud of? Perhaps they ought to come up with a different flag to fly. I do get the dislike of the flag. It did represent a south that went to war to protect their way of life of slavery. Much like the Nazi flag represents a time of Nazism. We'd wonder what Germans were doing if they marched carrying a Nazi flag. So, I think people have a right to an opinion that says they shouldn't do that. And I'd also understand if the Jews were offended by it.

Perhaps if southerners want to show their southern pride they should find a different or new symbol.

Back when I was in high school, I got to talking with some of my classmates about what our respective nationalities were. As part of it, I noted that I had German on both sides of my family, and that my maternal grandmother was a war bride. The class troll overheard us, and for the rest of the semester he would make Nazi jokes whenever he saw me.

Similarly, if you look at anti-Mormon writings you'll see that they invariably either wave polygamy around as a bloody shirt or wave Mountain Meadows (in which a group of Utah state militia that had been panicked by word of an invasion partnered with a group of Native Americans to annihilate a wagon train seen as a mutual threat) as a bloody shirt.

What we're seeing here is the same basic principle: there are those who legitimately believe that due to past actions, entire cultures, religions, and ethnic groups need to be made to feel shamed forever, with no chance of redemption. Being a member of this group, even if they were simply born into it, is tantamount to Original Sin, and so the person must be made to wallow in regret and penance for their entire life.

This is what people refer to when they talk about "Cancel Culture" and how horrifically evil it is: there's no chance for a person to be seen as a person, let alone show that whatever people think about them is incorrect or attempt to atone for any legitimate misdeeds.

In this case, the "good and proper" crowd has decided that the South is, and forever will be, linked with slavery and oppression, and so anyone who resides in the South and fails to present themselves as either a victim or proper penitent must be regarded as sub-human.

Simply put, a lot of what we're seeing these days with Confederate flags and other symbols becoming more visible is push-back, people coming to feel that they themselves are being attacked and desiring to push back by whatever means they feel appropriate.

Consider, for example, a situation that happened here in Texas a few years ago. The city of Austin decided to re-name Robert E. Lee Elementary School, and opened it up to the public for suggestions.

School Asks for New Name, the Internet Answers 'Schoolie McSchoolface'

By Snopes, the #2 suggestion was to simply leave the name as it is.

You can read for yourself the other suggestions people had, although the Snopes article omits the fact that "Bruce Lee Elementary" and "John Cena Elementary" had a few nominations as well.

Basically, most of the people who responded either wanted the name to stay the same, proposed clearly unacceptable names as a protest, or proposed unrealistic names as a troll job.
 
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