The New Pope Isn’t Going to Solve Any Problems

[JimR-OCDS]

That's no better. Human beings are complicated and relational beings. Telling them that the only way they can receive God's grace is to break off their relationship, is not the logic of Christ.

God doesn't destroy peoples lives. That's basic spiritual discernment. God draws us deeper into relationship with others, in many cases healing and restoring relationships, not cutting off and isolating people. Relational responsibilities are central to spiritual discernment, any Jesuit that teaches Ignatian spirituality will tell you that.



That's reading Jesus' words out of context. He was speaking to a cultural elite that considered divorce trivial, and women to be property of husbands. He wasn't saying a twice divorced couple who have been married for decades should separate, necessarily. He's saying divorce isn't good. Which is sort of obvious in the modern world. But how we respond to that, with grace or judgement, determines whether we are following Jesus in spirit.

That's why interpreting Jesus' teachings requires embodied and relational wisdom, not just "correct pious answers". This is what incarnational theology is really about.

So, your interpretation is greater than the Catholic Church's. OK I get it, you're an anti-Catholic.

Interpretation of Scripture requires theological knowledge and historical knowledge, which the Church has had
for over 2000 years.

 

[FireDragon76]

So, your interpretation is greater than the Catholic Church's. OK I get it, you're an anti-Catholic.

No. I'm saying the Catholic Church isn't monolithic. And by no means am I "anti-Catholic" (quite the contrary). There are absolutely Catholics that would agree with what I've said. While they don't represent all Catholics, they aren't an inconsequential minority.

Interpretation of Scripture requires theological knowledge and historical knowledge, which the Church has had
for over 2000 years.

And knowledge and understanding never deepens?

 

[Lost4words]

The American media is thrilled that the Roman Catholic Church now has an American Pope. They are following his every word to see what his policy will be. Of course, the media is far more interested in what the Pope says about international events and political figures than anything he says about religion. The media hopes that Pope Leo will be a peacemaker.

Should we see Popes as potential peacemakers? Here is one problem with that. The Roman Catholic Church not only condemns abortion but every other form of birth control as well. Certainly they oppose any form of birth control recommended by doctors. In modern times, the RCC’s condemnation of birth control goes back to a decree issued by Pope Paul VI in 1968.

I am a critic of abortion, but the blanket prohibition of birth control is completely counterproductive. Much of the world is suffering from enormous overpopulation. Many of the world’s problems can be traced back to overpopulation. Opposition to birth control, or birth control not being available, leads to overpopulation, which means there isn’t enough food to feed the people. This leads to malnutrition and starvation. Population pressure leads to war.

If Pope Leo wants to be a force for peace, the first thing he would have to do is get rid of the RCC’s opposition to birth control. Until then, anything the Pope says about peace is just hot air.

1 John 2:15-17
​

15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life[a]—is not from the Father but is from the world. 17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

You can’t evaluate the ethics of an action without looking at the consequences.

So you are a consequentialist. Do fundamental principles, rules and virtue come into play at all?

 

[RileyG]

I don’t believe the world is overpopulated and there’s numerous countries experiencing a fertility crisis and failing to replace the old at the rate they should. But I don’t think birth control should be regulated by the church. It’s a personal choice between a man and wife. Nor is abortion included in that statement.

As for the pope, the majority aren’t impacted by his presence or decisions in a significant fashion beyond the ones who follow him. He isn’t making a difference my life on a personal level nor have the others. But why are you debating his position on birth control as a protestant? It’s none of your business. That’s their problem not yours. If they don’t agree they know what do. And it isn’t illegal.

~bella

I agree. People are starving because people aren’t sharing resources fairly. The cities tend to be overcrowded, and small towns are dying out.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

And knowledge and understanding never deepens?

You assume it doesn't for the Catholic Church?

Do you think the Church is the same as it was 500 years ago?

 

[RileyG]

I am sympathetic to traditional Catholic teachings and the moral clarity this often brings, but the teachings often lack ethical personalism and proportionality . Absolute bans on birth control don't really fit with respecting peoples bodily autonomy, their individual needs, and vocation. It also sends negative messages about sexuality and embodiment, potentially, that dishonors the goodness in creation, instead fostering an overly controlling and fearful mindset, instead of embodied wisdom and respect. Forcing parenthood on people who are clearly unprepared for it turns what is supposed to be into a generative gift into something ugly and twisted.

This is where many progressive Catholics, including many Jesuits, differ from traditionalists who believe that we never can see the truth more clearly, that religious teachings have to be stuck in a particular understanding from the past.

As the Church teaches with sexuality, sexual behavior is only acceptable within marriage between one man and one woman. It’s meant to be open to life and a means for the couple to bond. It’s beyond just physical pleasure.

Up until 1930, all Christian denominations rejected birth control. The Anglican Church rejected it in 1930 at the Lambeth Conference, followed by Protestant Churches.

Only the Catholic Church, Russian Orthodox Church, Amish and some Mennonites, and Orthodox Judaism have consistently rejected artificial birth control as sinful.

Regardless, I don’t care what couples do in their bedroom. It’s private and none of my business.

 

[FireDragon76]

You assume it doesn't for the Catholic Church?

Do you think the Church is the same as it was 500 years ago?

It does deepen, but often in a lagging, uneven, and tentative manner. Which makes it seem more than a little reactionary at times. The American Catholic Church in particular, considering that the United States is an otherwise advanced, developed society. American Catholics are alot more conservative than the German Catholics, for instance, seemingly inexplicably. I can only guess it's due to relative cultural isolation and a great deal of the wider US's culture being steeped in reactionary social movements and ideologies, so that religion gets automatically coded as deeply, and recalcitrantly, conservative. Something that isn't the case in Europe, not for a long time.

 

[Dale]

The world isn't overpopulated. If everyone on earth stood together, they would all fit inside the area of the city of Los Angeles. I can't speak for the rest of the world, but in America, starvation is usually a by-product of drug addiction or untreated mental health conditions. This is just a guess, but we probably throw away enough food to end world hunger in this country alone.

Second, the Bible condemns abortion and, by extension, birth control. God has declared it to be a sin, so it is. Even if overpopulation was a problem, it's still a sin. We need to be careful not to fall into the trap of trying to play God by redefining what sin is based on our own feelings.

Jermayn: “The world isn't overpopulated. If everyone on earth stood together, they would all fit inside the area of the city of Los Angeles. I can't speak for the rest of the world, but in America, starvation is usually a by-product of drug addiction or untreated mental health conditions.”

In 1965, the population of the world was almost two billion and everyone knew that was way more people than we can feed. In 2023, the world’s population passed eight billion.

I don’t know where you have been if you don’t know that hunger is a massive problem is most of the world. Do you ever read a newspaper?

Jermayn: “Second, the Bible condemns abortion and, by extension, birth control. God has declared it to be a sin,”

I don’t believe that the Bible condemns abortion. Jesus said nothing about abortion in the Sermon on the Mount.

Paul says:
1Co. 7:2 But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband.
1Co. 7:3 The husband should fulfil his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband.
1Co. 7:4 The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.
1Co. 7:5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
I Corinthians 7:2-5 NIV

Paul discusses husband-wife relations and gives us the duties of marital partners. He says nothing about any duty to have children. He does not recommend chastity for people who can’t afford to have children.

I am not in favor of abortion, by the way. In the county I live in, I have infuriated a number of people by speaking out against it.

 

[RileyG]

^ per the worlds population, I trust in God’s sovereignty and Divine Providence. All shall be well in the end.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

The American media is thrilled that the Roman Catholic Church now has an American Pope. They are following his every word to see what his policy will be. Of course, the media is far more interested in what the Pope says about international events and political figures than anything he says about religion. The media hopes that Pope Leo will be a peacemaker.

Well, so far he's not in the news everyday blowing his progressive leftist political trumpet at every opportunity like his predecessor, so we can be thankful for that

 

[Valletta]

That's no better. Human beings are complicated and relational beings. Telling them that the only way they can receive God's grace is to break off their relationship, is not the logic of Christ.

The Word of God says having sex outside of marriage is wrong, and that. You are wrong, that is the logic of Christ. A person has more than one chance to repent, Nineveh repented. People have the chose to obey God's laws or not, to embrace God or reject God.

Matthew 5:31-32 “It was also said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’ But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity,[a] makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. RSVCE