My Psalm 19:1 challenge

[Kylie]

Your reasoning and intelligence would lead you to the wrong conclusions anyway.

Such as when He makes very clear statements in the Bible, but your reasoning and intelligence lead you to conclude otherwise.

So it really doesn't matter.

When the rich man in Hell requested someone be sent to his five brothers, lest they end up in Hell also, Abraham said if they wouldn't listen to the Scriptures, they wouldn't be convinced by objectivity.

In other words, reality can take a hike.

I think I've said it before, you're like the guy who goes to Paris and then spends the entire trip with his head buried in the Lonely Planet guide because he thinks the guidebook is a better way to see what Paris has to offer than actually getting out and walking around the city.

In short, it's a stupid idea.

So if you tell me that reality and the Bible disagree, then I'm going to go with reality. Only a fool would think that reality is NOT the best source of information about reality.

 

[Heissonear]

Scientific methodists here have used reason to bottle themselves up inside a cocoon of empiricism and scientific formulas and observable evidence.

While harping that we should "think outside the box," they have placed themselves in such a small box they can't see straight.

Like a bunch of collerage students piling into a phone booth to look stupid, these guys shout to us: "Come on in! There's room for more!"; and no one in the booth is wise enough to think to use the phone ...

Jeremiah 33:3 Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

... except to Arab phone those who are trying to rescue them from suffocating in their own mundane philosophies.

.

 

[theophilus777]

But it's still wrong. If radiometric dating tells us the rock has existed for millions of years, yet it hasn't, then what science says is wrong. Likewise, if astronomy tells us the stars have existed for billions of years, and they haven't then what we learn from the heavens is false, and the passage is incorrect.

Highly illogical, Captain. Your (false) assumption is we have to take sides here, and that our understanding of either one is correct. Either could be correct, or both, or neither.

 

[AV1611VET]

Highly illogical, Captain. Your (false) assumption is we have to take sides here, and that our understanding of either one is correct. Either could be correct, or both, or neither.

Welcome to CF!

 

[theophilus777]

Why does God give us the gifts of reason and intelligence, and then set up the world so that our reason and intelligence leads us to the wrong conclusions?

Ouch. Two words:

responsibility.

Ok, I couldn't use 2 words. 1 is enough.

 

[Kylie]

Ouch. Two words:

responsibility.

Ok, I couldn't use 2 words. 1 is enough.

And what exactly does this mean? Care to clarify?

 

[Kylie]

Highly illogical, Captain. Your (false) assumption is we have to take sides here, and that our understanding of either one is correct. Either could be correct, or both, or neither.

So you are saying that if you get many people conducting experiments to find out one particular thing, and all of their experiments say the same thing, despite being done by different people, in different ways, at different times and at different places...

They could still all be wrong, and a claim made by people living thousands of years ago is just as likely?

REALLY?

 

[ThinkForYourself]

Highly illogical, Captain. Your (false) assumption is we have to take sides here, and that our understanding of either one is correct. Either could be correct, or both, or neither.

So, Santa and the Tooth Fairy could also be real. Does that mean we also have to consider them in any discussion?

I say the Tooth Fairy wrote the bible to encourage people to get into fights, and thus lose teeth. I am glad you accept that this is a viable explanation of how the bible came into existence.

 

[KWCrazy]

I hate to break it to you guys, but I am not exactly a fan of the idea of finding reasons to downgrade the use of reason. I disagree with asserting one has any reason to refuse to reason.

Reason is not a synonym for naturalism.
If God ever existed, it stands to reason that He would still exist. If He sent His son to die for the redemption of mankind, then obviously mankind needed redemption. If Jesus rose again both in body and in spirit, then the spirit must exist. Also, if He cast out demons then demons must exist. So the established premise is that there IS a supernatural God, there IS a son of God which came to earth, there ARE demons and there ARE angels. With that established, reason holds that there are supernatural happenings and miracles today just as they have always been. Do you deny this?

This world is a construct. It will exist for a time and then pass away. Our spiritual existence is the ultimate reality. We WILL live forever.... somewhere. Why, then, should one put the opinions of those who study the natural creation above those who study the supernatural Creator?

 

[Archie the Preacher]

If God is hiding the true nature and age of the universe, then wouldn't that make this verse false?

Of course it would. If nature does not demonstrate the actual age of the Universe, then God is a liar.

You and I know better than that. So called "creationists" who are the spiritual and mental descendants of the Pharisees, simply don't care one way or the other. As long as they can feel self-righteous, God can be a liar for all they care.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Reason is not a synonym for naturalism.
If God ever existed, it stands to reason that He would still exist. If He sent His son to die for the redemption of mankind, then obviously mankind needed redemption. If Jesus rose again both in body and in spirit, then the spirit must exist. Also, if He cast out demons then demons must exist. So the established premise is that there IS a supernatural God, there IS a son of God which came to earth, there ARE demons and there ARE angels. With that established, reason holds that there are supernatural happenings and miracles today just as they have always been. Do you deny this?

This world is a construct. It will exist for a time and then pass away. Our spiritual existence is the ultimate reality. We WILL live forever.... somewhere. Why, then, should one put the opinions of those who study the natural creation above those who study the supernatural Creator?

I certainly don't deny the reality of miracles even today, I have experienced some in my own life.

We should, however, accept the results of studying the natural creation and not deny them; natural creation is open to being studied by all of us, those who are redeemed, and those who are not; it is of no consequence to me if the maker of my maps was saved or not when I am planning a road trip.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Of course it would. If nature does not demonstrate the actual age of the Universe, then God is a liar.

You and I know better than that. So called "creationists" who are the spiritual and mental descendants of the Pharisees, simply don't care one way or the other. As long as they can feel self-righteous, God can be a liar for all they care.

JESUS wasn't too fond of them either
They [and the Sadducees] are an interesting study.

http://www.christianforums.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=65682216
JESUS VS THE PHARISEES AND SADDUCEES

Matthew 3:7
Seeing yet many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming upon the baptism he said to them, prodigy of vipers! who intimates to ye, to be fleeing from being about wrath?

Pharisees - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Pharisees were at various times a political party, a social movement, and a school of thought in the Holy Land during the Second Temple period, beginning under the Hasmonean dynasty (140–37 BCE) in the wake of the Maccabean Revolt.
After the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, Pharisaic beliefs became the liturgical and ritualistic basis for Rabbinic Judaism (commonly known as simply Judaism).

Josephus (37 – c. 100 CE), himself a Pharisee, estimated the total Pharisee population prior to the fall of the Second Temple to be around 6,000 ("exakischilioi").[2] Josephus claimed that Pharisees received the backing and goodwill of the common people, apparently in contrast to the more elite Sadducees.

Pharisees claimed Mosaic authority for their interpretation[3] of Jewish Laws, while Sadducees represented the authority of the priestly privileges and prerogatives established since the days of Solomon, when Zadok, their ancestor, officiated as High Priest.


.

 

[Heissonear]

Of course it would. If nature does not demonstrate the actual age of the Universe, then God is a liar.

You and I know better than that. So called "creationists" who are the spiritual and mental descendants of the Pharisees, simply don't care one way or the other. As long as they can feel self-righteous, God can be a liar for all they care.

No so fast, brother Archie.

I was a godless geologist before meeting Him. I was educated in Historical Geology, of the events on earth over geologic time. And well acquainted with the theories of the solar system evolution and the Cosmos.

I've taken radiometric dating courses, including the sampling, selection of isotopes and the analytical instrumentation, including the testing procedures for obtaining accurate and consistent data.

So I understand the history of nature from the natural sciences, not Biblical interpretations.

That said, I've met Jesus and have been Baptized by His Spirit. Through His Spirit I started learning all over again, being born again through the Spirit. The old way of individually calling the shots, even truth from error, right from wrong, good from evil had to be reestablished, upon the foundation of what He says, not men nor what Naturalists say that nature says by "natural evidence".

You have naively stated being a Creationist is in the order of mere religionists and followers of doctrines and traditions. You made a judgemental mistake.

Again, I know the strata and intrusions/extrusions that make up the Paleozoic, Mesozoic and the like. Their stratigraphic sequences, depositional environments, facies and environmental transitions, the uplifts and basins over time. But God has something to say about this natural realm and processes. He has revelation through the Spirit to be sensitive to and receive. I have learned firsthand without His input through the Holy Spirit that we can miss interpret this world in many ways, including the earths history.

You will be surprised in the future at what God has revealed to His Spirit Filled followers, even of the sedimentary column. I've showed pictures to one fellow brother and Christian who was an academically trained geologist who believed the geologic column is old, even of depositional events, photo after photo, and in his own words he said where did you get these pictures. To say the least, God has many things to reveal Spiritually and naturally. It is not wise to say godless geologists and Naturalists have correctly interpreted the natural world around us. God has the last say, not Naturalists and Pharisees.

I have also known and witnessed many studying the cosmos and how they observed galactic structures and events in process that could not be explained by long time scales.

I encourage you to renew your sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and what He teaches not just in Genesis but about what has happened in nature around us over time, even natural processes and events many have yet to recognize. May the Lord lead and also make us Love one another, and not call each other merely religious and deceived like many groups of the past.

The Heavens declare the Glory of God, the works of His Hands!

 

[lesliedellow]

No so fast, brother Archie.

I was a godless geologist before meeting Him. I was educated in Historical Geology, of the events on earth over geologic time. And well acquainted with the theories of the solar system evolution and the Cosmos.

I've taken radiometric dating courses, including the sampling, selection of isotopes and the analytical instrumentation, including the testing procedures for obtaining accurate and consistent data.

So I understand the history of nature from the natural sciences, not Biblical interpretations.

That said, I've met Jesus and have been Baptized by His Spirit. Through His Spirit I started learning all over again, being born again through the Spirit. The old way of individually calling the shots, even truth from error, right from wrong, good from evil had to be reestablished, upon the foundation of what He says, not men nor what Naturalists say that nature says by "natural evidence".

You have naively stated being a Creationist is in the order of mere religionists and followers of doctrines and traditions. You made a judgemental mistake.

Again, I know the strata and intrusions/extrusions that make up the Paleozoic, Mesozoic and the like. Their stratigraphic sequences, depositional environments, facies and environmental transitions, the uplifts and basins over time. But God has something to say about this natural realm and processes. He has revelation through the Spirit to be sensitive to and receive. I have learned firsthand without His input through the Holy Spirit that we can miss interpret this world in many ways, including the earths history.

You will be surprised in the future at what God has revealed to His Spirit Filled followers, even of the sedimentary column. I've showed pictures to one fellow brother and Christian who was an academically trained geologist who believed the geologic column is old, even of depositional events, photo after photo, and in his own words he said where did you get these pictures. To say the least, God has many things to reveal Spiritually and naturally. It is not wise to say godless geologists and Naturalists have correctly interpreted the natural world around us. God has the last say, not Naturalists and Pharisees.

I have also known and witnessed many studying the cosmos and how they observed galactic structures and events in process that could not be explained by long time scales.

I encourage you to renew your sensitivity to the Holy Spirit and what He teaches not just in Genesis but about what has happened in nature around us over time, even natural processes and events many have yet to recognize. May the Lord lead and also make us Love one another, and not call each other merely religious and deceived like many groups of the past.

The Heavens declare the Glory of God, the works of His Hands!

In spite of all that waffle, you haven't explained how all those "godless" geologists came to get it so wrong, or why you haven't been able to convince them of their error - and no, they are not all atheists.

 

[Heissonear]

In spite of all that waffle, you haven't explained how all those "godless" geologists came to get it so wrong, or why you haven't been able to convince them of their error - and no, they are not all atheists.

Again, in the future you will be surprised. Even of "doctrines" that have made many "misinterprete" the Bible, the same has come for Naturalists to misinterprete natural events in the geologic column. Since such takes "revelation" from the Spirit I do not impose to do His work. Like with Miracles I have found such to be ordained for a select few He purposed it for. What He does about these discrepancies at some point in the history of revealing things on earth in broader scale we can only wait and see.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Heissonear

No so fast, brother Archie.
​

I was a godless geologist before meeting Him. I was educated in Historical Geology, of the events on earth over geologic time. And well acquainted with the theories of the solar system evolution and the Cosmos............

I was once a "godless" infidel until JESUS found me and I became "godly".

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

NIV Search Results for "godless"
"godless"
occurs 19 times in 19 verses in the NIV.

Isa 10:6
I send him[LLoJ] against a godless nation, I dispatch him against a people[godless atheists] who anger me, to seize loot and snatch plunder,
and to trample them down like mud in the streets.

1Ti 4:7
Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales;
rather, train yourself to be godly.

Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care.
Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge,

.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Again, in the future you will be surprised. Even of "doctrines" that have made many "misinterprete" the Bible, the same has come for Naturalists to misinterprete natural events in the geologic column.

So, you have nothing to offer, then?

Since such takes "revelation" from the Spirit I do not impose to do His work.

You've done nothing but since you came to these boards.

Like with Miracles I have found such to be ordained for a select few He purposed it for. What He does about these discrepancies at some point in the history of revealing things on earth in broader scale we can only wait and see.

.

Any day now; just you wait...

 

[lesliedellow]

You've done nothing but since you came to these boards.

From a purely religious standpoint, if he has got nothing he can tell us, it is not obvious why is bothering. It would be like Paul visiting Rome or Corinth, and then saying, "Sorry, there are some things I could tell you, but I am not going to."

 

[Heissonear]

From a purely religious standpoint, if he has got nothing he can tell us, it is not obvious why is bothering. It would be like Paul visiting Rome or Corinth, and then saying, "Sorry, there are some things I could tell you, but I am not going to."

.

Sorry you are neither Rome or Corinth, and that many previous posts initially went over your head.

You may want to read them slower and not presume you already know what it says but let the Holy Spirit reveal.

Many things in the Scriptures cannot be understood, even the very basics, unless God permits.

"Therefore leaving the elementary teachings about the Christ, ............. and this we will do, if God Permits." Hebrews 6:1-3

Yes, even the very elementary things in the Scriptures.

Clearly it is not like learning natural sciences. I understand TLK's problem in apprehending the Spiritual.

.

 

[TLK Valentine]

.

Sorry you are neither Rome or Corinth, and that many previous posts initially went over your head.

That's what hot air does.

You may want to read them slower and not presume you already know what it says but let the Holy Spirit reveal.

It seems unlikely that the Holy Spirit is to be found anywhere in the previous posts, regardless of the speed they are read at.

Many things in the Scriptures cannot be understood, even the very basics, unless God permits.

So you're admitting that your attempts to explain are a waste of time?

Clearly it is not like learning natural sciences. I understand TLK's problem in apprehending the Spiritual.

.

Indeed -- natural sciences require knowledgeable instructors.