Pre-Trib Only My New End Times Chronology

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, I was browsing through your links, and as far as the seven years are concerned you did not take into account the crowns/no crowns on the heads/horns on the beast in Revelation 17:3, 12:3, 13:1, the meaning of those.

The correct chronology has to correspond to those. They eliminate wrong chronologies.

I would need an exhaustive explanation on this one. Is there an article on it? Did you write something on this? I would need to be convinced with Scripture that this is so. You know. Be a good Berean and all.

Also, the 7 years in Ezekiel 39, that precede Jesus's return in Ezekiel 39:21-29, where is those 7 years in your chronology. The 7 years in Ezekiel 39 follow Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 38 and the first part of Ezekiel 39.
________________________________________________________________

I suggest starting with a semi-clean slate, starting with Ezekiel 38/39 as your outline for the end times.

Well, I have Part 2 (Repeat) Gog/Magog War in my chronology with the mention of the final battle listed at the end of the Millennium. I decided to leave out references on the first Gog/Magog war because it was unclear to me on it's placement. I know what others have said, but I do not see the importance of it in my Chronology at this time. I had the Gog/Magog war in my old chronology (Based on what others have said). I decided not to clutter up the chronology this time and only put things in there that I feel that are correct by what I hope is by the leading of the Lord. I would need to do more of an intense study on this and why it is important in the End Times to place it in my chronology.

 

[Dave L]

Dave, Jason has a tag for the thread. I myself would not be in this thread, except Jason gave the reason for his tag, and said he is pretrib and mid-trib.

The restriction was not present when I posted. Had it been I would not have posted.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It wasn't until after I posted. Let's be honorable about this.

It was always a Pre-Trib Only type thread. The chronology was also always Pre-Trib, and Mid-Trib. I recently clarified the original post to make this fact clear. Sorry for any lack of communication on my end, my friend.

Blessings to you in the Lord this fine day.

 

[Dave L]

It was always a Pre-Trib Only type thread. The chronology was also always Pre-Trib, and Mid-Trib. I recently clarified the original post to make this fact clear. Sorry for any lack of communication on my end, my friend.

Blessings to you in the Lord this fine day.

I did not see it and assume you added it later.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The restriction was not present when I posted. Had it been I would not have posted.

It's okay. I don't want to fight or anyone to fight with you. Let's make peace. I am curious. Not that I want to debate that here obviously, but what is your End Times view again? Are you Post Trib, Preterist, No Rapture Futurist?

Anyways, may God's goodness be upon you today.

 

[Dave L]

It's okay. I don't want to fight or anyone to fight with you. Let's make peace. But for your information: Pre-Trib Only was a restriction already in place when I created the thread. Not sure what your End Times view is (i.e. What is your End Times view again?).

Anyways, may God's goodness be upon you today.

I will delete my post assuming this is true.

 

[Douggg]

I would need an exhaustive explanation on this one. Is there an article on it? Did you write something on this? I would need to be convinced with Scripture that this is so. You know. Be a good Berean and all.

Jason, please go back to my post, I made a suggestion on restructuring your "summary" into "summaries".

I will have to look and see if have something on the crowns/no crowns already written up. But if not, I will explain those.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I will delete my post assuming this is true.

Yes, it is true. The Pre-Trib Only restriction was in place when I created the thread. If there was a Pre-Trib and Mid Trib Only option, I would have selected that at the creation of the thread (But there wasn't one). So I selected Pre-Trib at the creation of this thread (Seeing that is the Rapture that happens first).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, please go back to my post, I made a suggestion on restructuring your "summary" into "summaries".

You may agree or disagree, but I see it all as one Summary on the End Times (Future events). Each point is a section on important events in future history involving the church. Multiple summaries on the End Times would suggest be multiple scenarios in my view. I see the End Times events or an End Times Chronology as all one future thing that will happen and I do not see it as multiple timelines or possibilities.

I will have to look and see if have something on the crowns/no crowns already written up. But if not, I will explain those.

Thank you;
And may the Lord bless you today.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, it is true. The Pre-Trib Only restriction was in place when I created the thread. If there was a Pre-Trib and Mid Trib Only option, I would have selected that (But there wasn't one).

I deleted my post.

 

[Douggg]

Well, I have Part 2 (Repeat) Gog/Magog War in my chronology with the mention of the final battle listed at the end of the Millennium. I decided to leave out references on the first Gog/Magog war because it was unclear to me on it's placement. I know what others have said, but I do not see the importance of it in my Chronology at this time. I had the Gog/Magog war in my old chronology (Based on what others have said). I decided not to clutter up the chronology this time and only put things in there that I feel that are correct by what I hope is by the leading of the Lord. I would need to do more of an intense study on this and why it is important in the End Times to place it in my chronology.

The Gog/Magog war correctly placed it is critical. There is a way to know for 100% fool proof way to know when. In Ezekiel 39:21-29, it is Jesus Himself speaking in those verses, having just executed judgement on the heathen, (in Ezekiel 39:17-20 corresponding to Revelation 17-18) and is recounting the past 2000 years which the house of Israel went into nations for transgressing againts him, i.e. refusing him as their king.

So the 7 years which you are concerning with end with Armageddon - which have to be the 7 years in Ezekiel 39 following Gog/Magog. Which the conditions leading up to Gog/Magog are the events that precede the 7 years, are the events that lead up to the 7 years in the summary structure I suggested.

 

[Douggg]

You may agree or disagree, but I see it all as one Summary on the End Times (Future events). Each point is a section on important events in future history involving the church. Multiple summaries on the End Times would suggest be multiple scenarios in my view. I see the End Times events or an End Times Chronology as all one future thing that will happen and I do not see it as multiple timelines or possibilities.

The problem is that you don't know how pre-trib, the pre-trib rapture is. It may be years before the 7 years begin. And thus, imo, should be separate.

Plus your chronology summary lumps everything together. I think that once your start talking about the 1000 years and eternity, those should have some distinction in what you are summarizing - from the 7 years. A line break or something.

 

[Douggg]

Jason, something like this....

Summary:
Pre-Trib Rapture.

Summary:
Events leading up to the 7 years
1. Israel living in peace
2. Gog/Magog invasion
3. Burying the dead for 7 months

Summary:
Events during the 7 years

(Jason, this line item near the bottom)
Armageddon, judgement on the heathen, Ezekiel 39:17-20, Revelation 19:17-18

Summary:
Events following the 7 years

 

[Revealing Times]

4. Earth is Purified by Fire & Satan is Bound.

A question here, why do you think the earth is purified by fire ? Nevermind, I see its below.

The Earth is Purified by Fire
(Conclusion of the Day of the Lord):
(All Things Upon the Earth Are Destroyed By Fire):
(And the Polluted Atmosphere Passes Away With a Great Noise):

• 2 Peter 3:10-12

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. ...all these things shall be dissolved, .... wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat."

OK, this is the verse I thought you were referencing. Let me throw out this idea that I have become privy to only lately as per being a possibility.

The Day of the Lord is not just the 3.5 years of God's Wrath, but it STARTS God's/Jesus' rule over earth, the punishment, followed by the 1000 year reign, THEN 2 Peter 3:10-12 happens, and I would suggest that Earth might very well be Hell, or the earth could just vanish/burn up. But I don't think 2 Peter 3 happens, and then Jesus rules on earth 1000 years.

The Rapture:
(the Pre-Tribulation Rapture):

Prologue:

The Present: Time of False Christs, Wars, and Rumors of Wars:
(The Present: A Period or Age of Time That is Not the End):

• Matthew 24:4-6

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

We agree about the Rapture. But I suggest Matt. 24:4-6 is specifically about 70 AD, I don't know your opinion on that yet. The REASON they are told the End is NOT YET is because 70 AD is just like Zechariah 14:3-4, where Jesus saves Jerusalem. As a matter of fact, if Israel had of accepted Jesus, I think the Kingdom would have come at that time, but of course God knowing all things knew they would reject Jesus Christ at that time. Thus the FOURTH BEAST went away, for 2000 some odd years, until the Church age was over, then when the Rapture happens, the 70th week is suddenly upon the world, Amen.

The Dead in Christ Are Taken From Abraham's Bosom By the Rapture:
(Both the Old Testament Saints and Church Age Saints in Abraham's Bosom Are Called to Rise To Meet the Lord in the Air. For in the Rapture: The Dead in Christ Shall Rise First):

• Zechariah 9:11 NIV and 1 Thessalonians 4:16

For... I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit. And with the trump of God... the dead in Christ shall rise first:

We disagree here a wee bit. Those in Abraham's Bosom, who are "MARRIED" to God will be raised at the very end when Jesus returns to SAVE Israel, thus Daniel was told he would stand in his lot at the VERY END. The Church has to go to Heaven to Marry the Lamb. REMEMBER: there were two Brides, the prefered {Rachel} and the one that was forced {Leah}.

Try this for a reference brother, see if it works...By the way, overall, excellent work !!

Dan. 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

We know Michael STANDS UP at the Midway point or at the 1260 to SAVE Israel who flees Judea, we see that in Rev. 12 also, and then what happens ? Well in verse 2, the Jewish Saints are RAISED UP at that time, really 3.5 years later, but we know they are raised up after the 3.5 years of troubles, when Jesus returns. They don't need to Marry Christ, they are the Fathers Bride.

1st Half of Tribulation
(The Beginning of Sorrows):
(The First 3 ½ Years of the Tribulation):
(Also Known As the "Beginning of Birth Pains"):

The Beginning of Sorrows Described:
(Nations Rise Against Nations, Famines, Pestilences, and Earthquakes, etc.):

• Matthew 24:7-8

For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.

People have taught this for so long its easy to see why people go down this road, but just following the clues tell us Matt. 24:1-14 CAN NOT be the Tribulation Period. And I can show that. For starters the SORROWS means Birth Pangs, and Birth Pangs birth something, so when the 70th week is born, or the Tribulation is born, it will not be a part of the sorrows, but after the sorrows !!

Verses 4-6 is about 70 AD, verses 7 and 8 is about the 2000 some odd year Church Age, not the 70th Week Tribulation period. Kingdom arises against kingdom and Nation vs. nation describes the Church Age Wars, the famines, the pestilences and the EARTHQUAKES that will all give birth to the 70th Week of terror !! Or of hell on earth.

We just miss the clues !!

Matt. 24:9 Then shall they deliver you {DISCIPLES} up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

The Disciples are mentioned as DYING AFTER the Sorrows begin !! The false prophets are two fold here IMHO, they are Jewish Rabbis who lead astray at that time, and the many Jim Jones, David Koresh {and Armstrong} types that would exist in the Church Age Period. Verse 14 says the Gospel has to be preached unto ALL THE WORLD, and then the end will come, or the 70th week tribulation.

The Beginning of Sorrows Begins:

The Anti-Christ Comes Forth:
(Being a Savior to the Entire World by possibly stopping Destructive Nations):

The First Seal:

• Revelation 6:1-2

The First Seal Opened

And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four living creatures saying, Come and see. And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

The Sorrows/BIRTH PANGS, Birth the 70th week.

I will go over the rest later.......Good job overall.

 

[Oldmantook]

I have Revelation 16:15 as the Second Coming of Christ with the final part of the 6th bowl (or vial) judgment. You can check that out within part 3 of the 2nd Half of the Tribulation... here.

As for Revelation 16:16:
You can check that placement out in part 4 of the 2nd Half of the Tribulation... here.

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you.

Thanks for your reply. I don't question your placement of the 2nd Coming in term of vials, etc. but my question was since the pretrib view references the rapture as Jesus' coming as thief before the tribulation, why does Jesus state that he comes as a thief (rapture) in Rev 16:15-16 just before Armageddon? Does Jesus then come twice as a thief - before the tribulation and again at the end of the tribulation? And if so, at the second time as a thief he would take no one one by surprise since he already came previously which negates the "thief" scenario. It seems to me that the rapture and the 2nd Coming are one and the same event which takes place at the end the great tribulation.
You need not reply if you don't wish to since I posted my earlier query, not realizing this was only for the pretrib so don't I want to sidetrack your discussion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

A question here, why do you think the earth is purified by fire ? Nevermind, I see its below.

OK, this is the verse I thought you were referencing. Let me throw out this idea that I have become privy to only lately as per being a possibility.

The Day of the Lord is not just the 3.5 years of God's Wrath, but it STARTS God's/Jesus' rule over earth, the punishment, followed by the 1000 year reign, THEN 2 Peter 3:10-12 happens, and I would suggest that Earth might very well be Hell, or the earth could just vanish/burn up. But I don't think 2 Peter 3 happens, and then Jesus rules on earth 1000 years.

In my chronology I mention Amos 5:18.

Amos 5:18 says,
"Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light."

If the "Day of the Lord" is the 1,000 year reign of Christ, it would not make any sense because the "Day of the Lord" is a time described as darkness and not light.

Zephaniah 1:14-15 also calls the "Day of the Lord" as a day of wrath, too. I also have this verse listed in my chronology. In other words, the "Day of the Lord" is connected in part with the period of time known as the "Day of Wrath." The "Day of the Lord" extends (beyond the "Day of Wrath) to the Lord's return, and a purification of this world by fire. For Revelation 15:1 ends the Wrath of God.

We agree about the Rapture.

I know we agree on the Pre-Trib Rapture.

I am not sure you agree that there will also be a Mid-Trib Rapture (like me), too (Which is a Rapture for the remaining "resistance of believers" who were not killed by the Antichrist). I believe this because believers are told to look up for their redemption draws near at the Midpoint of the Tribulation (in the Olivet Discourse). Believers at the Midpoint of the Tribulation are also told that the Tribulation days will be shortened for the elect's sake (in the Olivet Discourse). The slaughter of many Christians by the antichrist starts the "Great Tribulation" (Which is the breaking of the 4th seal). The days of the Great Tribulation (Which extends out into the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments) will be shortened for the elect's sake. Meaning, general believers in Christ will see the slaughter of many Christians, but they are not appointed unto the time of God's wrath (Which begins with the breaking of the 1st Trumpet Judgment). The Mid-tribulation saint who will be raptured at the 6th seal were not killed by the antichrist because they were hiding out in secret tunnels and places that the Antichrist was not aware of. They are the resistance of the body of believers that survived his onslaught with the enforcement of the mark.

But I suggest Matt. 24:4-6 is specifically about 70 AD, I don't know your opinion on that yet.

I don't believe so. Nero died in 68AD, and he was a vicious persecutor of Christians, and he never claimed to be some kind of God or Christ so as to deceive Christians. Nero never sat in the holy temple and claimed that he was God.

A Testimony of Jesus Christ : 4.12 - Nero

The REASON they are told the End is NOT YET is because 70 AD is just like Zechariah 14:3-4, where Jesus saves Jerusalem. As a matter of fact, if Israel had of accepted Jesus, I think the Kingdom would have come at that time, but of course God knowing all things knew they would reject Jesus Christ at that time. Thus the FOURTH BEAST went away, for 2000 some odd years, until the Church age was over, then when the Rapture happens, the 70th week is suddenly upon the world, Amen.

I believe the "End" now is most likely the period of time known as the "Day of the Lord" with the breaking of the 1st Trumpet Judgment (i.e. the last 3 and a half years of the Tribulation).
We are in a time of false Christ's, wars, and rumors of wars with the End (7 year tribulation) not happening yet. I believe we are in the last days. Even Peter believed he was in the last days at Pentecost (See: Acts of the Apostles 2:17). But with all the stuff that is happening, we are really really in the last days now; But the "End" (the Day of the Lord) has not yet happened.

As for Zechariah 14:3-4: This is clearly the return of Jesus Christ in the flesh to make war at His Second Coming. I don't see how that fits with 70 AD. Jesus did not return in 70AD (as some have falsely claimed).

We disagree here a wee bit. Those on Abraham's Bosom, who are "MARRIED" to God will be raised at the very end when Jesus returns to SAVE Israel, thus Daniel was told he would stand in his lot at the VERY END. The Church has to go to Heaven to Marry the Lamb. REMEMBER: there were two Brides, the prefered {Rachel} and the one that was forced {Leah}.

I see the Pre-Trib Rapture of the saints as not only a taking up of those who are alive, but also those who are asleep or dead (i.e. Those who are in Abraham's Bosom). Where exactly are the dead in Christ rising from in the Pre-Trib Rapture?

Try this for a reference brother, see if it works...By the way, overall, excellent work !!

Dan. 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I see this as the flesh and blood bodily resurrection and not in any kind of Rapture or spiritual body type resurrection. For to awake is to awake from physical death. They are going to come awake into the real world physically.

We know Michael STANDS UP at the Midway point or at the 1260 to SAVE Israel who flees Judea, we see that in Rev. 12 also, and then what happens ? Well in verse 2, the Jewish Saints are RAISED UP at that time, really 3.5 years later, but we know they are raised up after the 3.5 years of troubles, when Jesus returns. They don't need to Marry Christ, hey are God the Fathers Bride.

Thank you for sharing that Israel is God the Father's Bride. I never really thought about that before. It makes sense in light of various verses in Scripture.

People have taught this for so long its easy to see why people go down this road, but just following the clues tell us Matt. 24:1-14 CAN NOT be the Tribulation Period. And I can show that. For starters the SORROWS means Birth Pangs, and Birth Pangs birth something, so when the 70th week is born, or the Tribulation is born, it will not be a part of the sorrows, but after the sorrows !!

verses 4-6 is about 70 AD, verses 7 and 8 is about the 2000 some odd year Church Age, not the 70th Week Tribulation period. Kingdom arises against kingdom and Nation vs. nation describes the Church Age Wars, the famines, the pestilences ad the EARTHQUAKES that will all give birth to the 70th Week of terror !! Or of hell on earth.

We just miss the clues !!

Matt. 24:9 Then shall they deliver you {DISCIPLES} up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

The Disciples are mentioned as DYING AFTER the Sorrows begin !! The false prophets are two fold here IMHO, they are Jewish Rabbis who lead astray at that time, and the many Jim Jones, David Koresh {and Armstrong} types that would exist in the Church Age Period. Verse 14 says the Gospel has to be preached unto ALL THE WORLD, and the the end will come, or the 70th week tribulation.


The Sorrows/BIRTH PANGS, Birth the 70th week.

I will go over the rest later.......Good job overall.

Interesting take on the Beginning of Sorrows. In order to give a fair reply: I was reading a few different articles on both sides after you have mentioned it. I still lean towards the current position I have for now. For one reason, Jesus was speaking to Jewish believers and not to church age believers (that are compromised of both Jews and Gentiles). So our understanding has to be from the perspective of living in Israel. These things would have to effect Israel. Matthew 24:7 sounds like all out "War" with the breaking of the 2nd seal in Revelation. This is going to be a war unlike we have ever seen before. In it's wake, famine will be the result (3rd seal broken). This has not happened yet.

Second reason: Jeremiah 30:4-7 ties the woman in birth pains as a part of Jacob's Trouble.

"And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." (Jeremiah 30:4-7).

"Now let me ask you a question:
Do men give birth to babies?
Then why do they stand there, ashen-faced,
hands pressed against their sides like a woman in labor?
In all history there has never been such a time of terror.
It will be a time of trouble for my people Israel.
Yet in the end they will be saved!" (Jeremiah 30:6-7) (NLT).

 

[1stcenturylady]

Saints Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked:

The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:

• Isaiah 66:22-24

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."​

For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihilation):

• 2 Thessalonians 1:9

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."​

• 2 Peter 2:6 NHEB

"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”​

• Psalms 68:2

"....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

• Job 4:8-9

“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”​

• Psalms 92:7 NLT

"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."​

• Deuteronomy 7:10

“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”​

• Psalms 1:6

“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”​

• Matthew 10:28

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”​

• Revelation 21:8

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:

A. Destruction of the Devil:

• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”​

‭
• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”
​

B. Destruction of the Entity or Power Known As "Death":

• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”​

Jason, so based on these verses, do you believe that those humans thrown into the lake of fire, are dead already and not suffering for all eternity?

 

[Douggg]

Hi Jason, on the crowns/no crowns - which must be understood to get the chronology right, comes down to the what time stamp is being referenced.

The time stamps
In Revelation 17, it is when the king 6 was ruling, and the beast (the spirit) in the bottomless pit

In Revelation 12, it is when there are 7 years to go, and the beast (the spirit) is still in the bottomless pit

In Revelation 13, it is when there are 42 months to go, and the beast has come out of the bottomless pit.

________________________________________________________________________________
with the time stamps applied...

Revelation 17
7 heads - no crowns... meaning the fulfillment of the 7 kings is not complete in the first century
10 horns - no crowns... meaning the beast has not come to power for the ten kings to rule with him

Revelation 12
7 heads - crowns.... meaning king 7 has come to power, completing the prophecy of the 7 kings, before the 7 years begin.
10 horns - no crowns.... meaning the beast has not come to power for the ten kings to rule with him.

Revelation 13
7 heads - no crowns.... meaning the prophecy of the 7 kings is over.
1 heads - mortally wounded, but healed.... meaning king 7 has been killed, before the 42 months begin, but has come back to life as the beast.
10 horns - crowns.... meaning with 42 months to go, the spirit has come out of the bottomless pit to possess the killed and come back to life king7, so that the ten kings rule with him the last 42 months.
_________________________________________________________________________________

Ezekiel 38/39 gives the general outline of the end times, that's the starter. Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus himself speaking in the text makes only one way, no option, that the 7 years follow Gog/Magog invasion.

The crowns/no crowns gives the parameters, for the chronology of the 7 years, for all the prophecies to fit Ezekiel 38/39.

In order.... incorporating the crowns/no crowns parameters...

- Today, we are presently here, right before everything starts -

Revelation 12, crowns the 7 heads, king 7 has come to power, the ten kings in place but no crowns (beast spirit still in bottomless pit).

(Trump or other peace plan here or before king 7 above comes to power)
Israel living in peace
Gog/Magog invasion
Gog's army destroyed

7 months burying the dead.

7 years follow, the 7 years of Daniel 9:27, confirmation of the (Mt Sinai) covenant takes place triggering false messianic age

first half of the 7 years takes place, Jews and the world saying peace and safety, false messianic age

middle of the 7 years - Revelation 13, crowns the ten kings, beast come to power in the middle of the 7 years, 42 months left

second half of the 7 years takes place, the great tribulation, AoD, 666, mark of the beast, vials wrath of God

Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20, ending the 7 years
Jesus returned to earth, Ezekiel 39:21-29

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Thanks for your reply. I don't question your placement of the 2nd Coming in term of vials, etc. but my question was since the pretrib view references the rapture as Jesus' coming as thief before the tribulation, why does Jesus state that he comes as a thief (rapture) in Rev 16:15-16 just before Armageddon? Does Jesus then come twice as a thief - before the tribulation and again at the end of the tribulation? And if so, at the second time as a thief he would take no one one by surprise since he already came previously which negates the "thief" scenario. It seems to me that the rapture and the 2nd Coming are one and the same event which takes place at the end the great tribulation.
You need not reply if you don't wish to since I posted my earlier query, not realizing this was only for the pretrib so don't I want to sidetrack your discussion.

If you were to do a BlueLetterBible search on the keyword "thief" (See this link here), you will notice that this in reference to the time known as the "Day of the Lord." The "Day of the Lord" is a period of time that starts at the breaking of the 1st Trumpet Judgment (Although it is heralded as having arrived by the wicked at the 6th seal). The time period known as the "Day of the Lord" includes the 2nd Coming of Christ, and it officially ends with the purification of this world by fire (as mentioned by Peter).
The age or time period known "Day of the Lord" is contained within the 7 year Tribulation period.
So in order to truly "not know the day or the hour" is not to know when the 7 year Tribulation will begin that contains the "Day of the Lord" time frame or period. This is why we are to watch for Christ's appearing at any moment. For Scripture says he will come in a time we think not.

I created a table in my recent commentary post here (if you are interested).

Blessings to you in the Lord.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, so based on these verses, do you believe that those humans thrown into the lake of fire, are dead already and not suffering for all eternity?

No. I believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. This is the belief that "hell" is a very real and literal place, but after the Judgment, the wicked will eventually be destroyed (annihilated) both body and soul in the Lake of Fire (Gehenna). The saints will then witness the lifeless remains of the wicked after the passing of several sabbaths and moons.

To learn more and to discuss this topic, check out my Dualistic Conditional Immortality thread here.

Please take note that if you disagree and give a reply in that thread, I am not obligated to reply in turn. If you offer something biblically that is substantial I will consider it with a reply in turn. For now, it is not something I am wishing to debate currently (unless someone offers something really note worthy). For me: It's not only a biblical issue, but a heart (moral) issue, as well.

May God bless you.