My Journey to Universalism

[HSong]

This was originally posted on the Tentmaker site, but I will repost it here so you all know my background and how I came to discover Universalism, the belief that everyone will go to Heaven through Jesus Christ, that God will save all people. From Atheism to Man Made Religions to Eternal Torment to Annihilationism to Universalism

I was born into a Christian household. We were in an extremely fundamentalist legalistic church, but we escaped. After going to a few churches, we settled on a regular one that we now still go to.

Even though I attended church, at that time I did not truly know about God. I would read atheism blogs and study Nihilism by Friedrich Nietzsche. Eventually, I realized these were lies. There is no way that life is meaningless. We must have a purpose. I then started researching other religions Buddhism, Hinduism even Zoroastrianism. The problem with all of them is they required special works. Meditating for a long time, doing specific good deeds, mandatory pilgrimages. It was all man made, fake.

Then I looked back at Christianity. I was never told how to be saved, so I searched online looking for answers. I came across the extremely fundamentalist site Jesus-is-savior.com by Eternal Torment believer David J. Stewart. I don't go to that site anymore, I do not recommend any fellow Universalist to go there, but it's there where I learned a lot about the Bible and how to be saved.

These were the steps of my prayer. I saw myself as a sinner, believed with faith alone that the only way to Heaven was to accept Christ's free gift of salvation. He died on the cross, was resurrected three days later and His blood, by grace, saves me. Afterwards, I felt this wonderful feeling, my head got lighter and I felt a huge wave of relief. That was the moment when I was born again.

However, that was not the end of my journey. Looking more on that site, I could not believe that a loving God would send people to be tormented forever. Looking back at the exChristian sites I was at before, a big reason people rejected Christianity is they thought God would be torturing people in Hell.

Then, I found Annihilationism through rethinkinghell.com, the belief that, instead of torturing people forever, God would simply keep them dead forever. (Similarly, I do not recommend any fellow Universalists go to this site). While better than Eternal Torment, it was not good enough. It felt like a waste. Why would God create people with so much potential, just to destroy them? Logically, God is good, God loves us and would want all of us to be saved, is what I began to think.

Then I found the Tentmaker site, the truth, Christian Universalism, that God will save everyone through Jesus Christ, He will bring everyone to Heaven for happiness because He wills it. And when reading through the site the first time, I felt a similar relief to when I was first saved. Except, even now, when looking through here and all the Bible verses that prove this as the truth, that feeling of happiness stays there.

All this time, I would go on sites by man-made authors, telling me what to believe. I never actually really read the Bible without someone else's interpretation. So I read through it, all the hundreds of verses supporting Universal Reconciliation and it was true. This whole time, the truth was right in front of me, plainly written. I believed myself to by smart and wise to search online, always looking for a man made answer or tradition, but all I needed was to believe like a child, the simple truth, that God loves everyone and will save everyone.

Right now, my Christian parents both still believe in Eternal Torment. Even though they escaped fundamentalism, like I did, they could not escape from man-made views. And even when I tell them about Universalism, they do not believe it. They are both saved, at least. But I also feel relief knowing, eventually, they will understand the truth like I do. All people will in Heaven.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Psalm 30:5 For his anger is but for a moment, and his favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 All will be made alive in Christ, but each in his own turn and ultimately Christ will subdue all his enemies, eliminate death and God will be all in all.

 

[BNR32FAN]

This was originally posted on the Tentmaker site, but I will repost it here so you all know my background and how I came to discover Universalism, the belief that everyone will go to Heaven through Jesus Christ, that God will save all people. From Atheism to Man Made Religions to Eternal Torment to Annihilationism to Universalism

I was born into a Christian household. We were in an extremely fundamentalist legalistic church, but we escaped. After going to a few churches, we settled on a regular one that we now still go to.

Even though I attended church, at that time I did not truly know about God. I would read atheism blogs and study Nihilism by Friedrich Nietzsche. Eventually, I realized these were lies. There is no way that life is meaningless. We must have a purpose. I then started researching other religions Buddhism, Hinduism even Zoroastrianism. The problem with all of them is they required special works. Meditating for a long time, doing specific good deeds, mandatory pilgrimages. It was all man made, fake.

Then I looked back at Christianity. I was never told how to be saved, so I searched online looking for answers. I came across the extremely fundamentalist site Jesus-is-savior.com by Eternal Torment believer David J. Stewart. I don't go to that site anymore, I do not recommend any fellow Universalist to go there, but it's there where I learned a lot about the Bible and how to be saved.

These were the steps of my prayer. I saw myself as a sinner, believed with faith alone that the only way to Heaven was to accept Christ's free gift of salvation. He died on the cross, was resurrected three days later and His blood, by grace, saves me. Afterwards, I felt this wonderful feeling, my head got lighter and I felt a huge wave of relief. That was the moment when I was born again.

However, that was not the end of my journey. Looking more on that site, I could not believe that a loving God would send people to be tormented forever. Looking back at the exChristian sites I was at before, a big reason people rejected Christianity is they thought God would be torturing people in Hell.

Then, I found Annihilationism through rethinkinghell.com, the belief that, instead of torturing people forever, God would simply keep them dead forever. (Similarly, I do not recommend any fellow Universalists go to this site). While better than Eternal Torment, it was not good enough. It felt like a waste. Why would God create people with so much potential, just to destroy them? Logically, God is good, God loves us and would want all of us to be saved, is what I began to think.

Then I found the Tentmaker site, the truth, Christian Universalism, that God will save everyone through Jesus Christ, He will bring everyone to Heaven for happiness because He wills it. And when reading through the site the first time, I felt a similar relief to when I was first saved. Except, even now, when looking through here and all the Bible verses that prove this as the truth, that feeling of happiness stays there.

All this time, I would go on sites by man-made authors, telling me what to believe. I never actually really read the Bible without someone else's interpretation. So I read through it, all the hundreds of verses supporting Universal Reconciliation and it was true. This whole time, the truth was right in front of me, plainly written. I believed myself to by smart and wise to search online, always looking for a man made answer or tradition, but all I needed was to believe like a child, the simple truth, that God loves everyone and will save everyone.

Right now, my Christian parents both still believe in Eternal Torment. Even though they escaped fundamentalism, like I did, they could not escape from man-made views. And even when I tell them about Universalism, they do not believe it. They are both saved, at least. But I also feel relief knowing, eventually, they will understand the truth like I do. All people will in Heaven.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Ephesians 1:10 As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

Psalm 30:5 For his anger is but for a moment, and his favor is for a lifetime. Weeping may tarry for the night, but joy comes with the morning.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 All will be made alive in Christ, but each in his own turn and ultimately Christ will subdue all his enemies, eliminate death and God will be all in all.

Have you studied the Bible? There’s a lot of websites out there that will tell you all sorts of things. It’s best to get your information directly from the source of God’s word instead of middlemen.

 

[William J]

I really hope that you are right and everyone will go to Heaven. However, some of the things that Jesus says make it sound like people could end up in Hell. For example, "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." (Mark 9:43, NIV) Do you think Jesus is saying that there is a place Hell but not that people are actually going there? Will Hell be empty? Again, I want you to be right about this, but there are some passages that make me question.

 

[Der Alte]

* * * 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 All will be made alive in Christ, but each in his own turn and ultimately Christ will subdue all his enemies, eliminate death and God will be all in all.

As with most, perhaps all UR-ites, why have you deliberately altered 1 Cor 15:22 to make it say something it does NOT say?

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. ​

All men are inherently "in Adam" because they are physical descendants of Adam. They do not become "in Adam" when they die.
1 Cor 15:22 does NOT say "All will be made alive in Christ," "all men " are NOT in Christ, that requires a conscious choice by every person, while they are alive. Just as all men are not made "in Adam" by death. All men are NOT made alive in Christ at death.

 

[Joined2krist]

God has given us a glimpse of torment here on earth. Why is there sickness, disease, pain, sadness etc?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I really hope that you are right and everyone will go to Heaven. However, some of the things that Jesus says make it sound like people could end up in Hell. For example, "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." (Mark 9:43, NIV) Do you think Jesus is saying that there is a place Hell but not that people are actually going there? Will Hell be empty? Again, I want you to be right about this, but there are some passages that make me question.

Typically most universalists view hell as a place of temporary punishment until those individuals within repent then they will be released and allowed to enter Heaven.

 

[Der Alte]

Typically most universalists view hell as a place of temporary punishment until those individuals within repent then they will be released and allowed to enter Heaven.

Unfortunately there is no, zero, none scripture which states that the punishment is temporary. In fact, scripture states exactly the opposite.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological, root word fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of continuous Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the 1611 KJV and to define them correctly.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Unfortunately there is no, zero, none scripture which states that the punishment is temporary. In fact, scripture states exactly the opposite.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
Some mis/uninformed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.” However, that is an etymological, root word fallacy. According to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is understood that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of continuous Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete words which occur in the 1611 KJV and to define them correctly.

Amen brother I absolutely agree. Iranaeus, a second century Greek Christian writer, specifically stated that the punishment of the condemned is not merely temporal but eternal. I’m certain he also knew exactly what the Greek words in the scriptures meant seeing that he spoke and wrote fluently in the Greek language. Then there is plenty of additional evidence beyond simply the definitions of these words, like for example “but for the one who betrays the Son of Man it would be better for him if he had never been born” or “not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven” or “he who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven”. All of these statements contradict the idea of universal reconciliation.

 

[FineLinen]

I really hope that you are right and everyone will go to Heaven. However, some of the things that Jesus says make it sound like people could end up in Hell. For example, "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out." (Mark 9:43, NIV) Do you think Jesus is saying that there is a place Hell but not that people are actually going there? Will Hell be empty? Again, I want you to be right about this, but there are some passages that make me question.

William there are many dwelling places in Fathers House. Each abode is distinct in union and degrees of fellowship within Him.

All four hells are consummated in the One who consumes death & hell(s) with one Big Gulp!

 

[FineLinen]

Typically most universalists view hell as a place of temporary punishment until those individuals within repent then they will be released and allowed to enter Heaven.

Our Father ABBA has an outcome to any punishment of His wayward children. It is NOT unending torment but change & transformation.

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!

 

[Der Alte]

...

Our Father ABBA has an outcome to any punishment of His wayward children. It is NOT unending torment but change & transformation.
The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!

The usual unsupported, unscriptural, meaningless UR platitudes.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Hmm]

God has given us a glimpse of torment here on earth. Why is there sickness, disease, pain, sadness etc?

He's given us a glimpse of reality TV shows too but what of that? By the same logic, will these endure forever?

 

[Der Alte]

Amen brother I absolutely agree. Iranaeus, a second century Greek Christian writer, specifically stated that the punishment of the condemned is not merely temporal but eternal. I’m certain he also knew exactly what the Greek words in the scriptures meant seeing that he spoke and wrote fluently in the Greek language. Then there is plenty of additional evidence beyond simply the definitions of these words, like for example “but for the one who betrays the Son of Man it would be better for him if he had never been born” or “not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven” or “he who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven”. All of these statements contradict the idea of universal reconciliation.

Here is an ECF quote I have posted a number of times.

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

So "eternal punishment" in Matt 25:46 cannot mean "eternal death" since the dead are not conscious of the punishment.

 

[Der Alte]

He's given us a glimpse of reality TV shows too but what of that? By the same logic, will these endure forever?

So, it is your belief that it was God who gave us "reality TV shows?" Strange, I can't find that in my Bible. Can you cite book, chapter and vs?

 

[Hmm]

So, it is your belief that it was God who gave us "reality TV shows?" Strange, I can't find that in my Bible. Can you cite book, chapter and vs?

Context is all, Comrade Alte, as you are so fond of saying. I made my comment in response to someone saying that because there is suffering on Earth, there will be suffering (ECT) in eternity. The same logic would indicate that there will be reality TV shows in heaven. I don't mind if there is though as long as I don't have to watch them. I live enough reality, I don't want to watch it on TV as well.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Our Father ABBA has an outcome to any punishment of His wayward children. It is NOT unending torment but change & transformation.

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!

That would probably make a nice postcard but it’s not biblical. The word of God says what it says regardless of whether or not we like it or agree with it.

 

[FineLinen]

That would probably make a nice postcard but it’s not biblical. The word of God says what it says regardless of whether or not we like it or agree with it.

You may not be familiar with the prophet Jeremiah BNR.

"The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!"

 

[HSong]

The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!

This is true! There are many verses that talk about the Lord's steadfast love. It is His desire to love us. And God does what He desires. Therefore, He will save us all because He loves us all. He will never stop until all of us our saved because that's what He wants. His steadfast love guarantees it!

Psalm 33:22 - "Let your steadfast love, O Lord, be upon us, even as we hope in you."

Lamentations 3:22-23 ESV The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;

Psalm 118:1-29 Oh give thanks to the Lord, for he is good; for His steadfast love endures forever!

Psalm 117:1-2 ESV Praise the Lord, all nations! Extol him, all peoples! For great is His steadfast love toward us, and the faithfulness of the Lord endures forever. Praise the Lord!

 

[Der Alte]

...

You may not be familiar with the prophet Jeremiah BNR.
"The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases!"

I did a word search of the prophet Jermiah for that phrase. It ain't there but this is.

Jeremiah 31:3
(3) The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.​

 

[Der Alte]

This is true! There are many verses that talk about the Lord's steadfast love. It is His desire to love us. And God does what He desires. Therefore, He will save us all because He loves us all. He will never stop until all of us our saved because that's what He wants. His steadfast love guarantees it!
Psalm 33:22 - "Let your steadfast love, O Lord, be upon us, even as we hope in you."
Lamentations 3:22-23 ESV The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases;
Psalm 118:1-29 Oh give thanks to the Lord, for he is good; for His steadfast love endures forever!
Psalm 117:1-2 ESV Praise the Lord, all nations! Extol him, all peoples! For great is His steadfast love toward us, and the faithfulness of the Lord endures forever. Praise the Lord!

How do you explain this?

Jeremiah 13:10-14
(10) This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
(12) Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?
(13) Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.​

Or this,

Matthew 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

Jesus did NOT say "everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven!"
Jesus said, "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven."
And to the many not a few, who brag about all the "good things" they claim they did, Jesus will say "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"
When Jesus says "never" He means "never." not someday by and by.