My family is threatening to disown me if I get married to my fiance

[Albion]

You're going to have to show me a biblical case of adultery where sin was not involved.

You're changing the subject. I replied to one aspect of the post in question and you are apparently interested in debating a different one.

 

[com7fy8]

I dont think that somebody who has just been fooled into thinking they are female would have all female tendencies.

Not all females have the same tendencies. Like I offer > some number of things are what humans have decided are female.

I am just trying to get the perspective of other christians to try to understand how my parents think.

I do not personally know your parents; so I don't know if they are copy-cat cultural church people, or if they are growing in how we become because of Jesus in us.

But I do know there are things which the Bible says clearly are wrong.

unforgiveness

my way of self-righteously looking down on others who are wrong

"He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness." (Hebrews 5:2)

arguing and complaining

bitterness

nasty raging anger

immoral imagining

The Bible says for me to be an example; this includes first pointing out how I myself am wrong. Christians get judged "first" > 1 Peter 4:17.

Also >

"nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock." (1 Peter 5:3)

So, I must not lord myself over any other person; yet, I must not give in to what is wrong.

 

[com7fy8]

Loss of virginity by a woman PRIOR to marriage

You list this as a capital offense in the Law of Moses. Please read it again. The offense is not that the woman has lost her virginity, at least according to what I can see, but how she has on purpose misled people by fooling a man into thinking she is virgin so he marries her thinking she is a virgin. Note, how he finds out after they are married. So, to me this means she has on purpose misled people. That is betraying trust. To betray trust is not only doing what is immoral for pleasure, but betraying is an act of hatred, which you might know the Bible says is a form of murder.

This can also be why adultery can be a capital, because it involves betraying.

 

[Dave G.]

Yes but unlike the prodigal son, this man’s parents are disowning him. And note that his parents didn’t disown him when he left their faith, causing him, as you say, to go to hell. They disowned him for getting engaged to a transgender person. So I guess that is worse than not being a Christian?

Ya I suspect this story runs pretty deep and we are hearing one side.. I never agree with disowning. Cutting off of an adult relative maybe but not disowning.

The prodigal son = all is not always as it seems. The father loved the son more deeply than the kid ever knew.

 

[Sparagmos]

Hi everybody,

I grew up in a fairly strict Christian family. Around the age of 19, I started to doubt the religion I had been raised in, & now consider myself agnostic. This in itself caused a lot of problems with my parents, however, they have sort of accepted it, probably because they are hoping I will change my mind again later in life & return to Christianity.

At the age of 21, I met my current fiance, who I am very much in love with, & we are going to get married in 6 months time. When my family 1st met my fiance about 2 years ago, they had no problems with her & seemed very happy that we were together. They also seemed happy when we announced our engagement 6 months ago. My fiance is also from a Christian family, so I think they were relieved about that.

So whats changed? Well, my fiance was born with male genitals, but from an early age, she thinks as early as 4 years old, she started behaving & identifying as a girl. She is on hormone treatment, & as female as any other female I know, & I have never seen her as anything but female. 2 months ago we decided that we should tell my parents about her transition, as they had no idea before. Now my parents are convinced if I marry this girl I will be going straight to hell. They have said that they won't attend our wedding, & if I marry her they will disown me.

My fiance is very upset about this, & I don't know what to do. She thinks we should call off the wedding until my parents accept it, but I don't know if they ever will, & I don't think my parents should dictate who I marry.

My fiances own parents are Christian, but they accepted many years ago the reality that their son is now their daughter, & they are happy for our marriage.

Just looking for advice from the perspective of other Christians I guess.

When parents of same-sex couples refuse to attend their wedding, this mom steps in - CNN

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Now you are verballing me. i was replying to somebody else who made that sugestion, NOT myself. I am not trying to disprove anything. The person I replied to made the comment that he himself suffers from delusional thoughts. I suggest that you read the whole message before you jump to false conclusions.

I didnt come here to 'disprove' religion. But I have been asked the question by you yourself, what would proof consist of, & I have given my answer. You now have the opportunity to prove ME wrong if you want to or think you can.

Well, post a thread in the Christian apologetics section and we will give it a go.

 

[com7fy8]

Firstly, I was raised as a Christian, & believed it was true for most of my life.

Christianity is not only or mainly beliefs.

But God proves Himself to us. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen > see Hebrews 11:1, please.

"faith working through love" > in Galatians 5:6.

This evidence faith has us experience how God in us changes us with His love > Romans 5:5, 1 John 4:17 < basic Bible guarantees of Christianity.

And our basic calling in Jesus includes to be submissive to however our Heavenly Father personally rules each of us in our "hearts" >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

"and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." (Philippians 4:7)

This is a guarantee. God proves this in us by how His peace does this in us. Yes, God is almighty, and therefore this peace is almighty to guard our hearts and minds against any and all cruel things, of fear and it various sorts of "torment" > 1 John 4:18 < more about how God personally proves Himself in each of us who live in "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6).

So, you might talk with your parents about this.

You have not said anything about ever experiencing this and deciding this was not good enough for you.

How much have your parents told you about these basics of Christianity? And how much have they talked about how this is how God is proving Himself in them?

 

[com7fy8]

i wanted to be very sure of what I believed in, because I had also been raised to belive that all non christians are going to hell, & the fear of that probably was the prime motivator that was keeping me IN christianity.

Yes, the Bible says there is hell, but Jesus does not use hell as a threat to get people to do what He wants.

"when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously" (in 1 Peter 2:13).

Jesus suffered and died like He did, on the cross, partly because He knows about hell and He found it worthwhile to suffer that much in order to keep us from going there.

 

[com7fy8]

You ask me what would proof for the existance of god look like. Well the bible could have mentioned some things that are actually testable, to see if the truth of reality relates to what it says in the bible.

My opinion at this point is that human means have no ability to prove who God is or is not.

It is like asking an ant down in an anthill to prove there are humans.

But if a human were to dig down to that ant . . . the human can prove oneself.

God is so different than we are and so superior, that we have no way of realizing this by only our human means. And our logic can be our way of making our own selves the dictators of who and how God is, but He is not fooled.

The proof comes with doing what Jesus says to do. This includes >

"let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me" (in Luke 9:23-24).

"we who first trusted in Christ" (Ephesians 1:12)

So, one needs to come to trust in Jesus, and this is personal, not only doing certain copy-cat things which a church group might be looking for you to do, and not only agreeing to some number beliefs and practices. But God takes care of what you really need to know.

 

[com7fy8]

A real God would

We are not God's dictator, I now am glad to say.

You could also say a real American politician would.

On we could go.

And we have ones who marry the wrong people, and only then are claiming a really loving person would do this or that. But why did they marry someone who was not for real in love? Why could they not tell the difference?

You are saying, I would suppose, in so many words, that your parents do not know how to love.

Now, either they do or they don't. It can be that all of you are wrong, and all of you need to discover how Jesus saves and Jesus has us learning how to love, with "rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30).

Anyone can boss one's own way on others.

But I know we Jesus people have to tell our children the truth about right from wrong, or we aren't loving them. So, we have to tell them what is wrong, even if ones wrong say we hate them.

Little children can scream how their parents hate them when parents know better than to give them what will ruin their teeth or what will help them become unable to learn how to relate in love with real human beings. But because children are born with the tendency to be first about pleasure, they can maybe even feel their parents don't love them because their parents won't spoil them with candy and cake and ice cream and technological toys which do not love them and never will solve their loneliness problem.

The company of pleasure can not solve a person's problem of loneliness.

And if you want real excitement and enjoyment, learning how to love is one of the most worthwhile challenge and the best education you can get.

But it includes knowing what is wrong, so we don't go there.

 

[RDKirk]

You're changing the subject. I replied to one aspect of the post in question and you are apparently interested in debating a different one.

No, you said there were "exceptions" for adultery.

You even said they were explicit.

Which exceptions?

 

[Theo Barnsley]

When parents of same-sex couples refuse to attend their wedding, this mom steps in - CNN

Thanks for sharing that. It made my day, seeing how there are such nice caring people out there.

 

[Theo Barnsley]

No, my friend, you keep bouncing back and forth here, one minute you are talking about adultery as in divorce and remarriage, (exactly what I was talking about/replying to) and now you have jumped back to the punishable by death, straight up adultery.

You aren't paying attention, STOP and listen. Divorce and remarriage was NEVER a a damnable sin as strait up adultery was, even in the OT. The law allowed it. Then later in the NT Jesus only said that was not the way it was meant to be because God intended for us to be together always. You say Jesus never said it was a lessor sin but where did he once call divorce and remarriage damnable? He himself said it was allowed because of the hardness of their hearts, and never once said it was any different then over today where it is still allowed for us to divorce and remarry. IT'S A LESSER ADULTERY, always has been, and as far as I know, always will be. It was allowed by the old law and Christ didn't change that.

If you don't get it this time, oh, well, but don't accuse me of changing the bible. Everything I just said is in line with what the bible says, you are the one calling divorce and remarriage a damnable sin...why? If the law of Moses allowed it, how could it be damnable? There wasn't even a penalty for it like fornication or standard adultery back then, as a matter of fact, it wasn't even considered adultery, Christ coined it adultery in the NT but once again, never said the punishment for it was any more than back then, as in there was none (it's actually it's own punishment)... I realize your view works for you, but it's just not reality. No one is singling HS's out, as much as you'd like that to be the case.

I minimize nothing, you maximized it wrongly, you said Jesus spoke of adultery as a damnable sin, and the sin he was referring to was not. In the beginning of this I said to show me a christian who says adultery is acceptable, and then, knowing you could not do that, you switched gears to the divorce and remarry adultery that is in reality still allowed yet you are still claiming it's damnable when it never was that and still isn't

Just to clear this up once & for all, so there can be no doubt, these are Jesus words quoted direct from the bible:
Mark 10:2-12
2. And some Pharisees came up to Him, testing Him, and began to question Him whether it was lawful for a man to divorce a wife. 3. And He answered and said to them, "What did Moses command you?" 4. And they said, "Moses permitted a man TO WRITE A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND HER AWAY."
5. But Jesus said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. 6. But from the beginning of creation God MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE. 7. FOR THIS CAUSE A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8. AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; consequently they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
10. And in the house the disciples began questioning Him about this again. 11. And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Jesus is clearly saying that RE-MARRIAGE after divorce IS adultery. He gave no caaveats after he said that.

However you want to deny this & try to say that it is 'lessser adultery', but can you quote the scripture that says that it is lesser adultery? Jesus said iti sadultery, full stop. He didnt give any caveat after he said those words & say it is lesser than any other form of adultery. You make this claim, merely because you dont like what Jesus says. However if you find any phrase that says that homosexuality is a sin, then you will be quick to jump on THAT, & point it out, & I bet that if I try to excuse it away, like YOU are trying to excuse away Jesus own words by claiming that they mean something else, then I am sure you will be very quick to jump on me & tell me that I cant excuse away Jesus own words in the bible.

Perhaps the reason you dont want to accept the words of Jesus is because you yourself have divorced & remarried, or one of your children, or some of your friends have.

Now that we can clearly see that Jesus condemns remarriage after divorce as adultery, I hope that you will stop trying to deny it.

I would also ask you one other thing. What does Jesus himself actually SAY about homosexuality. I am not talking about what Paul says, who may only be expressing his own opinion (even though you will try to claim that Paul was talking through God, again without evidence). I am asking you what Jesus himself said about it? Remarriage after divorce is obviously a big enough sin to be mentioned in all 3 synoptic gospels, & Jesus (who you claim is God) is the one who said it. There can be no higher authority than that! So tell me, what is the equivalence for condemnation of homosexuality by Jesus himself, since you are claiming that it is a much worse sin than re-marriage after divorce (adultery), & where does it say that it is a worse sin than adultery?

 

[David Kent]

He has already referred to his fiancé as a woman so I think you know he considers his fiancé a woman.

In that case she is his fiancée to get the spelling correct.

 

[Sparagmos]

In that case she is his fiancée to get the spelling correct.

You posted to correct my spelling? That’s pretty petty.

 

[whereloveandmercymeet]

I don’t think that Theo came here to try and do anything except understand why his parents feel that the way they do and see if he could find a way to connect with them on the issue. It seems to me he’s asking questions about why we believe what we do, and that should be encouraged. After all, that’s how we come to understand other faiths and also how people come to join ours.

Theo, it’s possible you’re going to find very few people who agree with what you’re doing from a biblical standpoint. And they can quote scripture by the dozen to support it. The fact is there’s also non religious reasons. Like the practicality of having children. That could also be weighing on your parents.

If your parents liked your fiancée as a person before they knew, then clearly it’s not to do with behaviour or anything just the transgender issues. Have they said why they are against it? That may help in your approach.

It might be worth talking to their pastor if they have one. Not to go complaining to them or anything, just be honest and tell them you’re having a hard time accepting the way your parents feel and you want to understand why they feel that way. That may help you at least start on the same page.

It may also help to give your parents some information for them to read in their own time, pressure free about Gender Dysphoria so they can understand your fiancée more?

You’ll probably never get them to agree with it (and I don’t think you should force them to abandon their beliefs) but you might be able to get them to accept your chose know life and person which I think from what you’ve been saying is what you actually want, I don’t think you’re trying to make them abandon beliefs just accept your marriage and not disown you for it?

 

[David Kent]

No.
p
People in many other countries indeed give up everything else in their lives when they accept Christ.

I knew someone who was Jewish who became a Christian and his parents disowned him and considered him dead. They held a funeral for him. I have heard that years later they were reconciled, but I never heard that from him.

 

[David Kent]

You posted to correct my spelling? That’s pretty petty.

Well you corrected others spelling. Not just you but all who got it wrong.

 

[Sparagmos]

Well you corrected others spelling. Not just you but all who got it wrong.

This thread isn’t a joke, it involves the life and loved ones of the OP, and sidetracking the discussion just to make petty jabs isn’t helpful, IMO.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I don’t think that Theo came here to try and do anything except understand why his parents feel that the way they do and see if he could find a way to connect with them on the issue. It seems to me he’s asking questions about why we believe what we do, and that should be encouraged. After all, that’s how we come to understand other faiths and also how people come to join ours.

Theo, it’s possible you’re going to find very few people who agree with what you’re doing from a biblical standpoint. And they can quote scripture by the dozen to support it. The fact is there’s also non religious reasons. Like the practicality of having children. That could also be weighing on your parents.

If your parents liked your fiancée as a person before they knew, then clearly it’s not to do with behaviour or anything just the transgender issues. Have they said why they are against it? That may help in your approach.

It might be worth talking to their pastor if they have one. Not to go complaining to them or anything, just be honest and tell them you’re having a hard time accepting the way your parents feel and you want to understand why they feel that way. That may help you at least start on the same page.

It may also help to give your parents some information for them to read in their own time, pressure free about Gender Dysphoria so they can understand your fiancée more?

You’ll probably never get them to agree with it (and I don’t think you should force them to abandon their beliefs) but you might be able to get them to accept your chose know life and person which I think from what you’ve been saying is what you actually want, I don’t think you’re trying to make them abandon beliefs just accept your marriage and not disown you for it?

I think the issue that we were dealing with here on this thread was not that he didn't get his answer as for Christian point of view. It was his reaction to it by pointing out the hypocrisy of his sister's divorce to play the victim, attack Christian's, and make excuses.