[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

[Douggg]

Dougg... I assume you already know that the term "Beast"
represents a "Kingdom"? Right?

In Revelation, in one place. In Revelation 13:1, beast has the dual representation of being a kingdom, and a king.

The False Prophet is the same Man called the "Little Horn"
in Daniel 7 and the "Fierce King" in Isaiah and the "Man of Sin"
in 2 Thess and commonly known as THE Anti-Christ who is
Satan's chief emissary on earth during his "Little Season".

The False Prophet is not himself a King. He is a "false" prophet who will claim to be Elijah, the prophet.

The Abomination of Desolation "standing" (ruling) in the
"Holy Place" (Body of Believers of the Fourth Kingdom) is
the same as the "Man of Sin" who is "sitting" (ruling) in the
"Temple" (Body of Believers of the Fourth Kingdom) so the
answer of WHERE this occurs is in the "Body of Believers"
during the Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]

It is a preposterous claim that the beast is the 100's of millions of people of the world who will worship the beast (themselves?), and be there on the temple mount - to be cast alive into the lake of fire at Jesus's return.

The beast and false prophet are two individuals. Both are individually referred to as he's. Not they's.

 

[Douggg]

The matter of dispensations is based on the word "ages" which I've mentioned in my post. "Ages to come". That is definitely a future term concerning end times.

ages past as well, in dispensatonalism. The entire history of man. Are you a dispensationalist?

 

[fwGod]

ages past as well. The entire history of man. Are you a dispensationalist?

I only quoted "ages" that point to future events. As you've mentioned Daniel who sought to know about the future, as I mentioned Paul who wrote of ages to come, as I mentioned of the disciples who asked Jesus when is the time of your coming and the end of the age.

If you have to ask the question out of uncertainty if I'm dispensational in my views on future events concerning what I've put in my posts then no wonder that you insist that you are not dispensational in your charts or in deciding what should and should not be in it.

As I've read your posts, I noticed that we do not agree on everything, but in a lot of what you've said, we do.

 

[Douggg]

I only quoted "ages" that point to future events. As you've mentioned Daniel who sought to know about the future, as I mentioned Paul who wrote of ages to come, as I mentioned of the disciples who asked Jesus when is the time of your coming and the end of the age.

If you have to ask the question out of uncertainty if I'm dispensational in my views on future events concerning what I've put in my posts then no wonder that you insist that you are not dispensational in your charts or in deciding what should and should not be in it.

As I've read your posts, I noticed that we do not agree on everything, but in a lot of what you've said, we do.

All I asked was if you are dispensationalist or not ? I would like a yes or no. If you are, then you can respond to some of other posters (not me) who have a big battle going on in this forum with dispenationalism. I don't want to get involved that battle, nor dragged into it.

I am a futurist, but not a dispensationalist. So I should not have to defend it. But by the same token, I have not taken up any war on dispensationalists.

I was never a part of that upbringing nor ever subscribed to the approach. It is not part of my thinking.

 

[JacksBratt]

It is not that they have "no" purpose. I only state that their MAIN purpose is the prevent the book from being opened to get Satan kicked off his throne UNLESS or until someone can be found worthy to take the book and open the seals.

Do you not see that the devil is involved in some of the seals that is sealing that book? I am convinced that the "book" is the lease document to earth. Satan usurped Adam's lease and took Adam's great authority and dominion. So God was on the outside looking in, so to speak. Satan because the "god" of this world, and has held that position since Adam. Therefore I think Satan certainly had something to do with the seals.

I see Satan's hand in getting this book sealed so that only someone who could rise from the dead to become the redeemer would be worthy. I am convinced That Satan was SURE no man would ever be able to escape from hell!

God wanted to send out the church (seal 1). Satan OF COURSE would not want that. I can guess He said, "if you send out the church, I get the right to STOP the church (or the advance of the gospel) and cause martyrs. GOd then might have said, "You can use wars, famines, pestilences, and wild beasts, but you are limited to only 1/4 of the earth."

God's goal will be to get the book opened:
5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book...
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book,

The seals, it seems, were there so that NO ONE - not even God himself - could open the seals: ONLY someone who could prevail over death under or by His own power. Did you notice, once a seal is opened, it is never mentioned again?

OF COURSE God wanted to send out the church to make disciples of all nations. But God did not want wars. It is Satan who starts wars. God is not a murderer. It is Satan to does pestilences. It goes without saying, God does not want martyrs. But Satan is the god of this world.

Sorry but I was responding to another poster.

And, as an aside... I doubt that Satan has a hand in anything that God is doing or even knows what God is going to do next...

 

[JacksBratt]

Well said!

Thanks.

 

[keras]

God's "Holy land" in not now found on this rotten, sin-cursed, earth.
See Revelation 11:8 for the spiritual condition of earthly Jerusalem.

This is denial of evident truth.
The holy Land was and remains; all of that area from the Nile to the Euphrates.
At present we worship far off, in Spiritual Jerusalem, but there is coming a time when all the Lords faithful Christian people will live in the holy Land, being the people He always wanted there, but has never yet had.

However, because we have Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, we know the book is not in chronological order.
Therefore, it can only be understood through the recapitulation method.

You cannot rearrange Revelation just on that one verse.
Revelation 16:15 is in [paranthesis] in my Bible. It is an admonition for us to stay alert and keep on our clothes of righteousness.

 

[BABerean2]

This is denial of evident truth.
The holy Land was and remains; all of that area from the Nile to the Euphrates.
At present we worship far off, in Spiritual Jerusalem, but there is coming a time when all the Lords faithful Christian people will live in the holy Land, being the people He always wanted there, but has never yet had.

Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

.

 

[keras]

I certainly don't think it is OK to teach that Gentile believers will go to the Holy Land rather than heaven! You would be run out of SO MANY evangelical churches if you tried to teach that doctrine.

As no one has yet showed me that anyone other than the 2 Witnesses go to heaven; then all those Church's are wrong.
All the 'rapture to heaven' believers will soon know the real Plan of God for His people and they will be very embarrassed for their error.

Jeremiah chapter 13:1-10 Jeremiah is instructed to buy a loincloth. He is then told to hide it near a river. After a long time, he retrieved it, but it was ruined.

Jeremiah 13:11-27 Thus, I shall ruin the enormous pride of Judah, these people with stubborn hearts, who worship other gods – they will become like that cloth, no good for anything. Hosea 8:14, Jeremiah 8:5-12

......I bound all Israel and all Judah to Me, so that they should become a source of renown and praise to Me, but they did not listen. Isaiah 31:6-7

....I shall make all who live in Jerusalem drunk..... I shall show no compassion nor refrain from destroying them. Obadiah 12-16

Pay heed, be not too proud to listen, for it is the Lord who speaks:
Give glory to God, before the light that you look for turns to darkness.

If in the depths you will not listen, then weep bitterly for the Lords people are carried off into captivity.
[Judah conquered by Babylon and again in AD70] Ezekiel 21:14

Say to the King and the Queen mother; take a humble seat, for your crowns have fallen. Ezekiel 21:25-27


The towns in the Negev are besieged, no one can relieve them. Judah has been swept clean away. This is paralleled by Ezekiel 20:46-47, Isaiah 9:18-19, Jer 10:18

Look up and see! Those people who are coming from the North!
The Lord’s people, all true Christians, migrating to the Land. Isaiah 41:8-10

Where is the flock that you were so proud of?
God’s people scattered among the nations.

What will you say when your leaders are missing? When you wonder why this has happened? It is because of your many sins. Isaiah 3:1-3

Can a Nubian change his skin? No more can you, [Judah] do good, so accustomed are you to doing evil. Isaiah 38-9
I will scatter you like chaff, before the desert wind. Jeremiah 33:14

This is your lot – I have decreed this for you, because you have forgotten Me and trusted in false gods. I will bare your shame for all to see. Isaiah 3:16-26

For your adulteries and shameful deeds – woe to you Jerusalem. How much longer will you be unclean? Nahum 1:12-15

This is a clear prophecy about the judgement of Judah in ancient times and again, soon to happen, proved by the unfulfilled prophesies here and throughout the Bible.
Then, the Lord’s faithful Christian people will enter the Land from the North. Isaiah 49:12 They will live there, in peace and security, to prepare for the Return of Jesus.
Reference; Revised English Bible, some verses abridged. logostelos.info

 

[keras]

Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. .

This is the case for all of the Church age. Soon to change!

The City prepared, will come to the earth after the Millennium. Rev 21:1-7

 

[BABerean2]

Thanks for that.

Will you accept that I believe that we are today, and have been for about 6000 years, been under the wrath of Satan?

I mean this entity absolutely hates us lowly humans that will, in the end, judge his kind, judge the angels...

Satan cannot stand it when some human soul is held in the heart of God when it accepts Christ.

So, ya, there is not only the wrath of God in the tribulation. There is heightened wrath of Satan for those that will not take his mark... even unto death.

However, the Tribulation is God's wrath poured out on the earth.

The very end of the tribulation period is God's wrath poured out on the earth.

.

 

[Douggg]

The very end of the tribulation period is God's wrath poured out on the earth.

.

On a very simple timeline chart, I want you to place where the Day of the Lord begins containing God's wrath, and when them saying peace and safety ends. Proportionally on the timeline.

Here is my timeline. Done with the keyboard. "|" is right above the backslash key.


Day 1..peace and safety..|..Day of the Lord begins (wrath).............................................Jesus Returns.

 

[BABerean2]

On a very simple timeline chart, I want you to place where the Day of the Lord begins containing God's wrath, and when them saying peace and safety ends. Proportionally on the timeline.

Here is my timeline. Done with the keyboard. "|" is right above the backslash key.


Day 1..peace and safety..|..Day of the Lord begins (wrath).............................................Jesus Returns.

I am not required to make a timeline...


.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev_6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev_6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


God's wrath is first mentioned in the 6th seal but that is not when the wrath actually begins. The 6th seal speaks of events that happen at the 7th trump:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev_11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This is actually the first time God's wrath actually happens.

 

[Douggg]

I am not required to make a timeline...


.

No you are not required to.

 

[Douggg]

This is actually the first time God's wrath actually happens.

... actually happens in Revelation.

If you go to 1Thessalonians5, it is when the saying "Peace and Safety" is stopped. And the Day of the Lord begins, like a thief in the night. Which the implication is the beginning of the Day of the Lord is when God's wrath begins because of what it says in 1Thessalonians5:

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

 

[ewq1938]

... actually happens in Revelation.

If you go to 1Thessalonians5, it is when the saying "Peace and Safety" is stopped.

Sure but the OP is about when God's wrath begins in Revelation.

 

[Douggg]

Sure but the OP is about when God's wrath begins in Revelation.

You are right, but it was too much for me to resist saying something.

 

[JacksBratt]

The very end of the tribulation period is God's wrath poured out on the earth.

.

Who's wrath is poured out with the seven seals, seven trumpets and the seven bowls?

 

[5thKingdom]

In Revelation, in one place. In Revelation 13:1, beast has the dual representation of being a kingdom, and a king..

Doug, I admit you are correct about this.
Revelation calls the LEADER (the False Prophet) the "Beast"
and it calls his followers the "Beast"

Just like the "kings of the earth" can represent either
the saved people in the church or the unsaved people...
depending on context.

so also the "Beast" can represent the HEAD of the Kingdom
or the FOLLOWERS of the Anti-Christ.

That is a good catch on your part... but easily explained
by the CONTEXT of the passage.

.