[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

[Tim Ray]

The Saints part in the Tribulation

(Rev. 7:9) …lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, …stood before the Lamb, clothed with white robes… 13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me [John] what are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they?14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of the great tribulation…

Contrary to the many post on this thread, God has predetermined that the saints shall play a very important part in the tribulation. Please consider the, Why and How in the following:

The Bible teaches that a Great Tribulation is coming on Earth before Jesus physically appears. (Matt 24:21-29; Dan 11:36; 12:1; Rev 3:10; 8:2-9:21; 19:11-21) Many people have never considered that the Great Tribulation is an act of God rather than a man-made set of problems like Y2K or World War II. (Col 3:5,6; Rev 14:9,10; 15:1)

The Bible teaches that God is righteous, perfect, upright and faithful in everything. (Deut 32:4) Even more, the Father loves man as much as He loves Jesus. (John 3:16) Further, God is not willing that any person miss out on the offer of eternal life. (2 Pet 3:9)Knowing this information, we can safely conclude that God has a righteous purpose for the Great Tribulation since He uses the highest intelligence in His planning. Now, let’s consider a few facts about the ways of mankind.

Man Made Religion Cannot be Trusted

Have you ever noticed how most religions of the world differ widely, but share certain characteristics? Although the world consists of many languages, religions, governments and cultures, the ways of humanity are strikingly similar. It should be no surprise that a number of "natural" laws govern religions of the world. I have found five "natural" laws that affect human beings:

Law #1: Religion usually limits a person to one view or perspective of God and His will. For this reason, 95% of the world’s population remain in the same religious system from birth and most will defend their religion to their death. Moslems tend to stay Moslems, Jews tend to stay Jews, Catholics tend to stay Catholic, Mormons tend to stay Mormon, etc. Why does this phenomenon exist among all mankind? Usually, ideas about God are developed and become part of a person’s conscience at an early age. When an original view of God is challenged, people often feel threatened and become hostile.

Law #2: Religion does not change fast. Christians were expelled from Judaism because Jewish leaders would not change. Protestants were expelled from the Roman Catholic church because Roman leaders would not change. Recently, the Worldwide Church of God (Armstrong) literally disintegrated when leaders changed key doctrines. From a historical perspective, when a religious body does make changes, it usually changes in favor of fewer constraints on behavior. The exception to this is when a religion tries to establish more control over its members, which results in greater constraints upon behavior. This separates its devoted members from those who are indifferent or non-supportive.

Law #3: Each religion embraces a body of knowledge that is far larger than laymen care to understand. For this reason, few laymen thoroughly investigate the origin or teachings of their beliefs. They usually submit (more or less) to the views of their religious authorities unless or until there is a controversy. The confidence and allegiance laymen place in their religious authorities is so great that usually, the laymen will not consider a contradicting point of view, no matter how logical or well presented it may be. Religious controversies are often more about social behavior than theology. One way of maintaining conformity of prevailing religious views is through church ownership of publishing companies that print "approved" material. Of course, this type of indoctrination keeps the views of the laity limited to the confines of that particular religion.

Law #4: Every religion is self-exalting. Each religion concludes it has the truth about God and all other religions have less truth or no truth. No religious system on Earth will concede that another church has greater truth about God than itself.

Law #5: Everyone born on Earth inherits three elements of religion. Just as we inherit a carnal nature from our parents, we also inherit a basic need for religion. Jesus created man this way, so we should not be surprised that religion flourishes on every continent and in every culture. The basic elements of religion are:

1. admiration of someone or something greater than self
2. submission to someone or something greater than self
3. association with others who share similar adoration

Synthesizing all the information presented so far, we can conclude four things about why God sends a tribulation:

1. – God understands the religious grid-lock on Earth and why truth cannot move forward. Simply put, one man cannot prove that his religion is superior over another. (Why do you think there are so many religions on Earth?) Religious diversity prevents six billion people from considering God’s truth because no one religion will concede that another religion has greater truth about God. So, God will send a Great Tribulation to show the human race that no religious system can be trusted and that none of them accurately or perfectly represent Him. God is going to level the playing field by asking each of us not to trust a religious system, but rather to put our faith in Him. As the confidence in each religious system collapses, it will be painful. People will reel with bewilderment, but this painful process is necessary! It will enable every person to consider and intelligently make a decision for or against the everlasting gospel that God’s servants, the 144,000 proclaim. (Matt 24:14; Rev 14:6)

2. – With deepest compassion and tender regard for humankind, God has thoughtfully constructed an Earth shattering event that will yield the highest number of "saved" souls in the end. God intends to test our faith in Him by using the Great Tribulation to separate the sheep from the goats within every religious body. During the Great Tribulation, the 144,000 will proclaim God’s truth. It will cut like a two-edged sword, separating people who love God from people who do not. As the world’s religious systems are shown to be defective, those people who are honest in heart will gladly receive God’s truth, although it will be contrary to what they thought was true all their lives! Consider the powerful significance of this transition! God will lead all "truth loving" people into greater truth and it will separate non-truth loving people from truth loving people. The primary purpose of the Great Tribulation is to save each person who will put their faith in God. Every infrastructure will collapse, including religion. People who do not love God with all their heart, mind and soul will be unable to withstand the persecution that will be inflicted upon those who love truth. Consequently, the just shall live by faith and the unjust will rebel.

3. – God has predetermined that the last generation on Earth will be tested in a way that is consistent with previous generations. Since salvation has always come through faith, why not have our faith tested before the seal of God is granted? Over and over, the Bible record reveals that there have been life and death tests for God’s people. (See Rev 13:10; 14:12, Heb 11, Dan 3 and 6 for a few examples.) Why should the last generation of Christians escape a life and death test over faith, when previous generations have been tested in this extremity?

It is true that wholesale persecution of God’s people has declined since the Dark Ages came to an end in 1798. (Dan 7:25) However, according to Bible prophecy this reprieve is about to end. (Rev 13:3) Revelation predicts that the saints are about to be persecuted again and a crisis government (the beast of Revelation 13:1) will war against the saints for 42 months. (See Rev 13:1-10) Like it or not, persecution has a way of purifying our faith in God. Persecution separates people of faith from people of presumption – pure gold from the dross. (Rev 3:18)
4. – When the Great Tribulation begins, God knows He will be grossly misunderstood. However, a day is coming when everyone will understand why the Great Tribulation was a marvelous necessity. It will allow people from all walks of life and diverse religions to either submit to God’s will or rebel. As a result, a numberless multitude of redeemed people will sing praises to God throughout eternity for His generous ways and incomprehensible love. (Rev 7:9-17) An even larger number (the wicked) will confess at the end of the 1,000 years that God was fair and righteous in all that He has done. (Isa 45:23,24) Please understand that obeying God’s truth is not the same thing as defending your religion. History proves that many have defended their religion to their death and knew nothing about God or His truth. (John 16:1-4)

Three Questions Answered

The first question is: "Why should we [Christians] have to go through the Great Tribulation? Isn’t the Great Tribulation for the conversion and salvation of non-Christians?" The answer is in the question. Christians are in the world for two purposes – to proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ and to demonstrate the love of God. Christians will go through the Great Tribulation because the world needs to see what love and faith in Jesus Christ is all about! No sermon has the power of seeing faith and love in action! Millions of non-Christians will be touched by what they see and respond by accepting the gospel because of the testimony and faith of Christians. The blood of Christian martyrs has always proven to be fertilizer for the gospel.

The second question is: "Why me, Lord? Why should I have to endure the suffering that accompanies the Great Tribulation, when other generations have not had to face such a terrible ordeal?" The answer is simple: God’s grace is sufficient for each situation and God’s purpose for each generation is unique.

Each generation has faced its wars and natural calamities, but none like the persecution during the Dark Ages or the coming Great Tribulation. But remember, God’s grace and His presence are commensurate with man’s extremity. We should not grumble about our upcoming glorious assignment in Earth’s history when God has chosen us to reveal His marvelous grace to a dying world.Yes, our human nature is weak and shrinks from the task that is coming, but by faith, we are more than conquerors through Jesus Christ. (Rom 8:37)

The last question is: "Why does God require a Great Tribulation in the first place? Why not end the world in one day?" God sends the Great Tribulation because He knows it is the best way to do the most good. In the end, God will be justified. He is not concerned about death because He knows the resurrection is coming! If God allowed His very own Son to die for the salvation of many, why should we think He will not allow us to die for the salvation of another person? The most important thing on Earth is not a Christian’s suffering, but rather the salvation of a soul. Do not forget! God will send judgments upon the wicked for their behavior. This is the purpose of the seven last plagues and I believe they will last for approximately 75 days. More importantly, however, is the larger purpose of the Great Tribulation which lasts 1,260 days.

During this time frame, the religions of the world will collapse and the offer of salvation (the gospel) will be powerfully preached throughout the world. Although this process takes time, the Bible says the harvest will be so great it will be numberless! (Rev 7:14) If it takes a Great Tribulation to produce that kind of harvest, then to God be the glory!

 

[Tim Ray]

Are the Jews in Judea told to flee to the mountains when a great global earthquake happens because that is what begins the great tribulation?

Matthew 24:15-16.

 

[Tim Ray]

Are the Jews in Judea told to flee to the mountains when a great global earthquake happens because that is what begins the great tribulation?

Matthew 24:15-16.

Doug, appreciate your question. I"m assuming, you as so many, believe the nation of Israel will play a large role in closing events. I do not share this belief, (you should view my earlier post) I believe God terminated Israel as His trustees of the Gospel commission at the end of the seventy weeks of (Dan.9) The seventy weeks end in AD 33.

The larger contexts of (Mat. 24:15-16) is Christ response to the questions put to him by His disciples, they wanted signs of when the temple would be destroyed, and signs of His coming.
So Jesus's reply covers both events, the destruction of the temple in their life time, 70AD, and His coming, yet future from our day. These events are co-mingled in Jesus's response.

The sign given to the followers of Christ in Jerusalem before the the city and temple complex would be destroyed was "When you see the abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place, you are to Flee to the mountains. My understanding of the actual fulfillment of this sign was, when the gentile Roman army set up it's position inside of the perimeter (150yds. out from the wall of the city) of the land that was granted to the priest, which was consider Holy, they were to flee to the mountains. It is said that not one christian died, that acted on this prophecy spoken by Christ, and recorded in both Luke and Matthew.

That portion of Jesus's prophecy about the destruction of the temple is history, as well as the warning for the Jew's to flee to the mountains.

In verses 21, 22, Jesus then is speaking about the events of the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgements of Revelation, leading up to His second coming. So destructive are these physical events which include world wide earth quakes recorded in (Rev.8:5) the opening of the trumpets and the last of four in (Rev.16:18-20) the seventh bowl. These events have no comparison to events of the past, but for the sake of God's people they will be cut short, least anybody could survive.

These are yet to come and they will affect every individual living on earth at that time.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, appreciate your question. I"m assuming, you as so many, believe the nation of Israel will play a large role in closing events. I do not share this belief, (you should view my earlier post) I believe God terminated Israel as His trustees of the Gospel commission at the end of the seventy weeks of (Dan.9) The seventy weeks end in AD 33.

The larger contexts of (Mat. 24:15-16) is Christ response to the questions put to him by His disciples, they wanted signs of when the temple would be destroyed, and signs of His coming.
So Jesus's reply covers both events, the destruction of the temple in their life time, 70AD, and His coming, yet future from our day. These events are co-mingled in Jesus's response.

The sign given to the followers of Christ in Jerusalem before the the city and temple complex would be destroyed was "When you see the abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place, you are to Flee to the mountains. My understanding of the actual fulfillment of this sign was, when the gentile Roman army set up it's position inside of the perimeter (150yds. out from the wall of the city) of the land that was granted to the priest, which was consider Holy, they were to flee to the mountains. It is said that not one christian died, that acted on this prophecy spoken by Christ, and recorded in both Luke and Matthew.

That portion of Jesus's prophecy about the destruction of the temple is history, as well as the warning for the Jew's to flee to the mountains.

In verses 21, 22, Jesus then is speaking about the events of the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgements of Revelation, leading up to His second coming. So destructive are these physical events which include world wide earth quakes recorded in (Rev.8:5) the opening of the trumpets and the last of four in (Rev.16:18-20) the seventh bowl. These events have no comparison to events of the past, but for the sake of God's people they will be cut short, least anybody could survive.

These are yet to come and they will affect every individual living on earth at that time.

Tim, do you want to participate in the "Where do you fit?" thread opening post questionnaire? One of the categories is "Sabbatarian"

Where do you fit ?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Some people believe it will begin with the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal.
Others say that is just the announcement: Wrath will begin at the 7th seal.
(I need input!)

The wrath of God has already been revealed against all unrighteousness. Through the Law we behold the wrath of God, for by the Law we are condemned in our sin--all of us. As it is written, "All have have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23). But thanks be to God that even as in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22). For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever trusts in Him will not perish, but have life everlasting (John 3:16), God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world be saved through Him (John 3:17), but condemnation has already come, and this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world but men loved darkness more than light because their deeds were evil (John 3:19).

Today is the day of God's wrath, for through the Law we find ourselves condemned as sinners. Today is the day of God's salvation, for God loved the world, sending His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in the likeness of sinful flesh, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us--and He suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried; and on the third day He rose from the grave and in Him there is eternal life, forgiveness of sin, peace with God, and victory over death, hell, and the devil.

The day will, of course, some when all must stand before God at the Judgment, and give account. For all that is hidden will be revealed, everything we said, did, thought, and felt will be exposed to the light. And on that Day our hope will not be in our righteousness, but the righteousness of God in Christ by which He lovingly saves us, rescues us, and brings us into His eternal rest in the Age to Come.

I don't believe in reading the Revelation as a text with some sort of chronology of future events. In Revleation, at the sixth seal, we see Judgment Day, the same Judgment that we see later in the text after Christ's coming where all must stand before the White Throne. This judgment is both now in part, and also on the Last Day. It is now as Christ Himself said, that men prefer darkness to light because their deeds are evil; the wrath of God is revealed from heaven through the Law which condemns all unrighteousness and, therefore, ourselves. And at the same time the Day will come when we must all stand before the Judge of both the quick and the dead.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Major1]

Major, I appreciate All of your response. The more, the better my understanding. Which is why I offer much in my responses, with no apologies. The things of God are deep and broad, and a shallow search does not find the gems of truth buried deep within.

On the chart you posted (thank you) it shows a starting and ending point for the 69 wks., could you give me the dates on either or both ends of that time line, please?

I understand from your earlier posts that you believe Israel will play a big role during the tribulation. Fact is, I did too. But that has changed. The following information is why.
Please consider it prayerfully, as it is sooooooooo informative.

Unfulfilled and Forfeited Prophecies, Author: Larry W. Wilson
Many Christians have been misled on a very important matter causing a great deal of confusion. Here is the problem: Other than the book of Daniel (which was sealed up until the appointed time of the end), the Old Testament says nothing about the last days or the Second Coming. In other words, the Old Testament does not speak about events that will transpire in our day or at any time in the future.

All of the promises and prophecies presented in the Old Testament would have been fulfilled soon after the seventy weeks expired in A.D. 33 if Israel had repented of its rebellion during the seventy weeks and honored the covenant which God gave it. In short, the Old Testament contains many prophecies that cannot be fulfilled and many promises that have been forfeited.

Christians have been misled on this matter for several reasons. First, many Christians have not studied the Old Testament thoroughly and lack a working knowledge of what actually transpired between God and Israel, so it is easy to be misled.

Second, many Christians do not understand the profound difference between a unilateral and a bilateral covenant. In other words, Old Testament promises are either "one-sided" (unilateral) or "two-sided" (bilateral). Very few promises in the Old Testament are unilateral; in fact, most of them are bilateral. Knowing the difference is essential if you want to understand the ways and actions of God.

Last, many Christians believe that everything God spoke must come to pass. This is a true statement, but not in the way that most Christians think. It is true that when God makes a promise, He will certainly keep that promise. However, we must remember that a conditional promise has two possible fulfillments.

For example, I might promise my daughter $50 if she gets an "A" in Biology. Suppose she gets a "B" and I give her nothing. Was my promise fulfilled? Yes!

The point is that many Christians read promises in the Old Testament without understanding the conditional basis on which the promises were made. They erroneously think, "Since the provisions in a particular promise have not been fulfilled, the fulfillment must be forthcoming!" This reasoning is flawed because most of God’s promises and prophecies in the Old Testament were conditional (bilateral). For example, notice this promise God spoke to the people of Israel at Mt. Sinai: ". . .You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.

Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. . . ." (Exodus 19:4-6) Did you notice the terms and conditions of this covenant? Did you notice the word "if" in the text? "Now if you obey me. . . . then. . . ."

The point is that God keeps His promises. Israel rebelled against Him, and true to His word, He rejected them as trustees of His gospel. (Leviticus 26; Romans 9-11) Years later, "Jesus said to them, ‘Have you never read in the Scriptures:

The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes? Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. . . . Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ " (Matthew 21:42,43; 23:38,39)

Think this through very carefully: God rejected Abraham’s rebellious offspring as promised because His covenant with them was "two-sided" (bilateral).

How can a marriage survive if one party is constantly unfaithful? God’s covenant with the nation of Israel was based on the condition of loyalty and obedience. (Exodus 19, Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28) On the other hand, God’s promises to Abraham were "one-sided" (unilateral). This means that God promised Abraham that He would do certain things and God’s fulfillment of those promises was not based on Abraham’s actions. The problem can be stated this way: God’s promises with Abraham were one-sided, but God’s promises with Abraham’s offspring were two-sided. Therefore, God had to make a change after Israel refused to cooperate with Him. God had to introduce a new covenant in order to fulfill His "one-sided" promises to Abraham. This change is called "the new covenant."

When God declared to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations (this included Jews and Gentiles), God’s promise was based on the success of Abraham’s offspring. God’s plan was that ancient Israel would be a light to the Gentiles and people from all nations until they came to know and love God as did Abraham. But, Israel refused to be a light unto the Gentiles. To make His unilateral promise to Abraham come true, God created a new covenant which redefines Abraham’s descendants.

Under the new covenant, God declared that believers in Christ are Abraham’s seed (Greek: sperm). The end result is that trustees of the gospel are not biological, but spiritual! God has grafted Gentiles into the unilateral covenant given to Abraham. This is why Paul wrote, "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

Plan A / Plan B
Under the "new" covenant, there is a "new" Israel. This is a "new" sequence of prophetic events that will culminate during the "end time." To help clarify this, I like to say the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation concern "Plan B." In other words, God has implemented a "new" covenant or Plan B, because "Plan A" (the original promises and prophecies given to ancient Israel) could not be accomplished because of Israel’s apostasy.

Plan B is a bigger and better plan. Plan B contains a brighter set of promises and prophecies and unlike Plan A, it is unconditional! This time around, God is not waiting upon a group of people to get their act together or is He depending on a particular religious body of people to accomplish the gospel commission.

At the appointed time, He will bring His work to completion by hand-picking 144,000 people from all over the world. These servants of God, having Abraham’s faith and love for God will accomplish all that God wants done in a mere 1,260 days! (Rev.11:3)

Once a person understands the sharp distinction between the "Old Testament Plan A" and the "New Testament Plan B," the Bible becomes much clearer and easier to understand.

Plan A events are not to be confused or mingled with Plan B events. God wants His children to clearly understand the intended meaning of Scripture. The Bible is consistent. It does not suffer from internal conflict once you understand what is being said.

Rule Three
The book of Daniel provides four rules which govern the interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy. Rule Three states: "Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic or analogous.To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible which define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic."

The following words need at least five seconds of serious thought: The books of Daniel and Revelation are cryptic and short for two reasons. First, God wanted these two books preserved for the final generation. Given the fact that copies had to be transcribed by hand for thousands of years, these two mysterious books had to be kept short in order to maintain their internal integrity. (Ancient scribes would have asked, "Why spend hundreds of hours making a copy of a huge book that no one understands?")

Second, the end time story contains a huge revelation of many things about God and this story takes several hours to tell. How can a huge story come from two short books? God has done a very clever thing. He created Plan B using some parts from Plan A. The all important difference is that Plan B contains an unconditional sequence of events. To fully appreciate Plan B we first need to understand Plan A. In this sense, the prophecies and promises in the Old Testament are indispensable! By closely studying the Old Testament’s Plan A, we can understand God’s plans better because there are many parallels between Plan A and Plan B.

Keep in mind that Plan B lays out an unconditional order of events and this highlights why Rule Three is so important. By comparing parallel language found in Daniel and Revelation with "Old Testament Plan A" language, we discover many marvelous elements which these two short books do not directly address. The bottom line is this: The better we correctly understand the prophecies and promises made in the Old Testament, the better we will understand the prophecies and promises in the New Testament.

For example, many people have asked me if I think the Jews will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem because the Old Testament indicates the temple would be rebuilt.

Let me clarify the facts about this issue. The Old Testament does indicate the temple would be rebuilt, but the Old Testament is not talking about a third temple! Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the first temple (Solomon’s temple) in 586 B.C. and Artaxerxes issued the decree to rebuild it in 457 B.C. The Romans completely destroyed the second temple in A.D. 70. There is no prophecy in the Bible indicating a third temple will be built and the reason for this silence is simple. God abandoned the nation of Israel at the end of the seventy weeks (Daniel 9) and He has no need for a third temple.

Jesus told the Jews, "Look, your house [your temple] is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’" (Matthew 23:38,39) Jesus declared the temple of Israel, which was designed to be His dwelling place, to be desolate. Jesus declared it desolate because Israel had rejected Him and He had rejected Israel. Second, Jesus made it perfectly clear that He would never dwell in Israel ever again. The next time the nation of Israel would see Him would be at the Second Coming.

Another interesting point: The temple mount was permanently removed from Jewish control in A.D. 684 when the Dome of the Rock mosque was built on the temple mount. It seems evident that God gave His site to the Moslems so that another Jewish temple could not be built. The presence of the mosque frustrates a lot of Christians who do not understand Plan B, but it shouldn’t. There will not be a third temple.

The temple that we should be studying and understanding is in Heaven! (Hebrews 8:1-5) That is where Jesus intercedes for us. Soon, Jesus will call for the seven trumpets to begin! (Revelation 8, 9) When that day arrives, the present confusion over rebuilding a temple in Jerusalem will vanish.

Thanks for the responce Tim. I will give you my opinion on the 1st question you asked..........

"On the chart you posted (thank you) it shows a starting and ending point for the 69 wks., could you give me the dates on either or both ends of that time line, please?"

The short answer is NO! NO ONE can give you any date.

I would however say that IMO, the start of the 7 weeks will begin with a 7 Year peace Treaty between Israel and whoever it is that invades them. My thinking is that it will Be Russia because of Ezekiel 38. Then in Ezekiel 39 we see that it will take Israel 7 years to dispose of the left over war losses. COINCIDENCE??????

If you care to post ONE question or comment at a time I will be more than happy to talk with you.
I just do not do well trying to answer a lot of things when they are together. It is not you but it is ALL ME.

God bless you!

 

[Major1]

Major, I appreciate All of your response. The more, the better my understanding. Which is why I offer much in my responses, with no apologies. The things of God are deep and broad, and a shallow search does not find the gems of truth buried deep within.

On the chart you posted (thank you) it shows a starting and ending point for the 69 wks., could you give me the dates on either or both ends of that time line, please?

I understand from your earlier posts that you believe Israel will play a big role during the tribulation. Fact is, I did too. But that has changed. The following information is why.
Please consider it prayerfully, as it is sooooooooo informative.

Unfulfilled and Forfeited Prophecies, Author: Larry W. Wilson
Many Christians have been misled on a very important matter causing a great deal of confusion. Here is the problem: Other than the book of Daniel (which was sealed up until the appointed time of the end), the Old Testament says nothing about the last days or the Second Coming. In other words, the Old Testament does not speak about events that will transpire in our day or at any time in the future.

All of the promises and prophecies presented in the Old Testament would have been fulfilled soon after the seventy weeks expired in A.D. 33 if Israel had repented of its rebellion during the seventy weeks and honored the covenant which God gave it. In short, the Old Testament contains many prophecies that cannot be fulfilled and many promises that have been forfeited.

Christians have been misled on this matter for several reasons. First, many Christians have not studied the Old Testament thoroughly and lack a working knowledge of what actually transpired between God and Israel, so it is easy to be misled.

Second, many Christians do not understand the profound difference between a unilateral and a bilateral covenant. In other words, Old Testament promises are either "one-sided" (unilateral) or "two-sided" (bilateral). Very few promises in the Old Testament are unilateral; in fact, most of them are bilateral. Knowing the difference is essential if you want to understand the ways and actions of God.

Last, many Christians believe that everything God spoke must come to pass. This is a true statement, but not in the way that most Christians think. It is true that when God makes a promise, He will certainly keep that promise. However, we must remember that a conditional promise has two possible fulfillments.

For example, I might promise my daughter $50 if she gets an "A" in Biology. Suppose she gets a "B" and I give her nothing. Was my promise fulfilled? Yes!

The point is that many Christians read promises in the Old Testament without understanding the conditional basis on which the promises were made. They erroneously think, "Since the provisions in a particular promise have not been fulfilled, the fulfillment must be forthcoming!" This reasoning is flawed because most of God’s promises and prophecies in the Old Testament were conditional (bilateral). For example, notice this promise God spoke to the people of Israel at Mt. Sinai: ". . .You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.

Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. . . ." (Exodus 19:4-6) Did you notice the terms and conditions of this covenant? Did you notice the word "if" in the text? "Now if you obey me. . . . then. . . ."

The point is that God keeps His promises. Israel rebelled against Him, and true to His word, He rejected them as trustees of His gospel. (Leviticus 26; Romans 9-11) Years later, "Jesus said to them, ‘Have you never read in the Scriptures:

The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes? Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. . . . Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’ " (Matthew 21:42,43; 23:38,39)

Think this through very carefully: God rejected Abraham’s rebellious offspring as promised because His covenant with them was "two-sided" (bilateral).

How can a marriage survive if one party is constantly unfaithful? God’s covenant with the nation of Israel was based on the condition of loyalty and obedience. (Exodus 19, Leviticus 26, Deuteronomy 28) On the other hand, God’s promises to Abraham were "one-sided" (unilateral). This means that God promised Abraham that He would do certain things and God’s fulfillment of those promises was not based on Abraham’s actions. The problem can be stated this way: God’s promises with Abraham were one-sided, but God’s promises with Abraham’s offspring were two-sided. Therefore, God had to make a change after Israel refused to cooperate with Him. God had to introduce a new covenant in order to fulfill His "one-sided" promises to Abraham. This change is called "the new covenant."

When God declared to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations (this included Jews and Gentiles), God’s promise was based on the success of Abraham’s offspring. God’s plan was that ancient Israel would be a light to the Gentiles and people from all nations until they came to know and love God as did Abraham. But, Israel refused to be a light unto the Gentiles. To make His unilateral promise to Abraham come true, God created a new covenant which redefines Abraham’s descendants.

Under the new covenant, God declared that believers in Christ are Abraham’s seed (Greek: sperm). The end result is that trustees of the gospel are not biological, but spiritual! God has grafted Gentiles into the unilateral covenant given to Abraham. This is why Paul wrote, "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)

Plan A / Plan B
Under the "new" covenant, there is a "new" Israel. This is a "new" sequence of prophetic events that will culminate during the "end time." To help clarify this, I like to say the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation concern "Plan B." In other words, God has implemented a "new" covenant or Plan B, because "Plan A" (the original promises and prophecies given to ancient Israel) could not be accomplished because of Israel’s apostasy.

Plan B is a bigger and better plan. Plan B contains a brighter set of promises and prophecies and unlike Plan A, it is unconditional! This time around, God is not waiting upon a group of people to get their act together or is He depending on a particular religious body of people to accomplish the gospel commission.

At the appointed time, He will bring His work to completion by hand-picking 144,000 people from all over the world. These servants of God, having Abraham’s faith and love for God will accomplish all that God wants done in a mere 1,260 days! (Rev.11:3)

Once a person understands the sharp distinction between the "Old Testament Plan A" and the "New Testament Plan B," the Bible becomes much clearer and easier to understand.

Plan A events are not to be confused or mingled with Plan B events. God wants His children to clearly understand the intended meaning of Scripture. The Bible is consistent. It does not suffer from internal conflict once you understand what is being said.

Rule Three
The book of Daniel provides four rules which govern the interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy. Rule Three states: "Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic or analogous.To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible which define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic."

The following words need at least five seconds of serious thought: The books of Daniel and Revelation are cryptic and short for two reasons. First, God wanted these two books preserved for the final generation. Given the fact that copies had to be transcribed by hand for thousands of years, these two mysterious books had to be kept short in order to maintain their internal integrity. (Ancient scribes would have asked, "Why spend hundreds of hours making a copy of a huge book that no one understands?")

Second, the end time story contains a huge revelation of many things about God and this story takes several hours to tell. How can a huge story come from two short books? God has done a very clever thing. He created Plan B using some parts from Plan A. The all important difference is that Plan B contains an unconditional sequence of events. To fully appreciate Plan B we first need to understand Plan A. In this sense, the prophecies and promises in the Old Testament are indispensable! By closely studying the Old Testament’s Plan A, we can understand God’s plans better because there are many parallels between Plan A and Plan B.

Keep in mind that Plan B lays out an unconditional order of events and this highlights why Rule Three is so important. By comparing parallel language found in Daniel and Revelation with "Old Testament Plan A" language, we discover many marvelous elements which these two short books do not directly address. The bottom line is this: The better we correctly understand the prophecies and promises made in the Old Testament, the better we will understand the prophecies and promises in the New Testament.

For example, many people have asked me if I think the Jews will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem because the Old Testament indicates the temple would be rebuilt.

Let me clarify the facts about this issue. The Old Testament does indicate the temple would be rebuilt, but the Old Testament is not talking about a third temple! Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the first temple (Solomon’s temple) in 586 B.C. and Artaxerxes issued the decree to rebuild it in 457 B.C. The Romans completely destroyed the second temple in A.D. 70. There is no prophecy in the Bible indicating a third temple will be built and the reason for this silence is simple. God abandoned the nation of Israel at the end of the seventy weeks (Daniel 9) and He has no need for a third temple.

Jesus told the Jews, "Look, your house [your temple] is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’" (Matthew 23:38,39) Jesus declared the temple of Israel, which was designed to be His dwelling place, to be desolate. Jesus declared it desolate because Israel had rejected Him and He had rejected Israel. Second, Jesus made it perfectly clear that He would never dwell in Israel ever again. The next time the nation of Israel would see Him would be at the Second Coming.

Another interesting point: The temple mount was permanently removed from Jewish control in A.D. 684 when the Dome of the Rock mosque was built on the temple mount. It seems evident that God gave His site to the Moslems so that another Jewish temple could not be built. The presence of the mosque frustrates a lot of Christians who do not understand Plan B, but it shouldn’t. There will not be a third temple.

The temple that we should be studying and understanding is in Heaven! (Hebrews 8:1-5) That is where Jesus intercedes for us. Soon, Jesus will call for the seven trumpets to begin! (Revelation 8, 9) When that day arrives, the present confusion over rebuilding a temple in Jerusalem will vanish.

Tim, you stated that..........
"At the appointed time, He will bring His work to completion by hand-picking 144,000 people from all over the world. These servants of God, having Abraham’s faith and love for God will accomplish all that God wants done in a mere 1,260 days! (Rev.11:3)"

May I point you to what the Bible literally says on this?

Rev. 7:4........
"Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144, 000 from all the tribes of Israel."

The 144K will be Jewish MEN who are virgins.

The church is raptured prior to the tribulation. During the time when the church is gone, a remnant of 144,000 ethnic virgin Jewish men are converted (12,000 from each tribe of Jews). These Jewish converts, in turn, evangelize the Gentiles who make up the great multitude in white robes in v. 9.

 

[Tim Ray]

"On the chart you posted (thank you) it shows a starting and ending point for the 69 wks., could you give me the dates on either or both ends of that time line, please?"

The short answer is NO! NO ONE can give you any date.

 

[Major1]

Care to elaborate?

 

[Major1]

The wrath of God has already been revealed against all unrighteousness. Through the Law we behold the wrath of God, for by the Law we are condemned in our sin--all of us. As it is written, "All have have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23). But thanks be to God that even as in Adam all die, so in Christ all shall be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22). For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever trusts in Him will not perish, but have life everlasting (John 3:16), God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world be saved through Him (John 3:17), but condemnation has already come, and this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world but men loved darkness more than light because their deeds were evil (John 3:19).

Today is the day of God's wrath, for through the Law we find ourselves condemned as sinners. Today is the day of God's salvation, for God loved the world, sending His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, in the likeness of sinful flesh, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us--and He suffered, was crucified, dead, and buried; and on the third day He rose from the grave and in Him there is eternal life, forgiveness of sin, peace with God, and victory over death, hell, and the devil.

The day will, of course, some when all must stand before God at the Judgment, and give account. For all that is hidden will be revealed, everything we said, did, thought, and felt will be exposed to the light. And on that Day our hope will not be in our righteousness, but the righteousness of God in Christ by which He lovingly saves us, rescues us, and brings us into His eternal rest in the Age to Come.

I don't believe in reading the Revelation as a text with some sort of chronology of future events. In Revleation, at the sixth seal, we see Judgment Day, the same Judgment that we see later in the text after Christ's coming where all must stand before the White Throne. This judgment is both now in part, and also on the Last Day. It is now as Christ Himself said, that men prefer darkness to light because their deeds are evil; the wrath of God is revealed from heaven through the Law which condemns all unrighteousness and, therefore, ourselves. And at the same time the Day will come when we must all stand before the Judge of both the quick and the dead.

-CryptoLutheran

I think that you may have misunderstood the term..."Wrath of God".

Wrath is defined as “the emotional response to perceived wrong and injustice,” often translated as “anger,” “indignation,” “vexation,” or “irritation.” Both humans and God express wrath. But there is vast difference between the wrath of God and the wrath of man. God’s wrath is holy and always justified; man’s is never holy and rarely justified.

Today is not God's wrath as it pertains to the theme of the thread which is "Where in the Revelation is God's wrath revealed."

The Old Testament prophets often wrote of a day in the future, the "day of wrath" (Zephaniah 1:14-15). God’s wrath against sin and disobedience is perfectly justified because His plan for mankind is holy and perfect, just as God Himself is holy and perfect. God provided a way to gain divine favor—repentance—which turns God’s wrath away from the sinner. To reject that perfect plan is to reject God’s love, mercy, grace and favor and incur His righteous wrath.

God's wrath is a technical term describing a future event or series of events where the anger of God will be manifested on humanity during the last 3 and 1/2 years which is the GREAT Tribulation.

 

[Tim Ray]

Care to elaborate?

Yes Major1, I do. For a simple clarification to readers on this post I earlier ask Major1 for the starting or ending date for the 69 year time line on a chart he posted. His response was, "The short answer is NO! NO ONE can give you any date."

My, response: Please consider the following questions. After Babylon completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, on it’s third and final assault in 586 BC, did the Jews eventually rebuild the city and temple, yes or no? The correct answer, is yes. If this weren’t true then how could the city and temple have been destroyed for the second time 656 years latter in AD 70 by the Romans?

These historical facts proves beyond reasonable argument that the seventy week prophecy of (Dan.9) starting date, (…from the issuance of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem…) mentioned in vs.25, has been fulfilled in the past. However, you believe it is yet future and no one can give any date. I have never heard anyone make such a statement, and it has really baffled me.

Let me be very transparent and show you four valid rules that I believe God built into His prophecies, that if understood and used correctly prevents individuals of all religions to arrive at nearly the same interpretation. In so doing they will override our personal religious bias so that we can understand the true and intended meaning of apocalyptic prophecy.

1. Each apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning and ending point in time and the
events within each prophecy must occur in the order they are given.

2. A fulfillment of apocalyptic prophecy occurs when all of the specifications within that prophecy are met. This includes the order of events outlined in the prophecy.

3. Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic, or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible that define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic.

4. God measures apocalyptic time in two ways: (a) a day for a year, and (b) as literal time. The presence or absence of the Jubilee calendar (1437 B.C. - 1994) determines how prophetic timing is determined.

These four laws/rules of interpretation have been consistently confirmed to be a constant in all fulfilled apocalyptic to date. Which seems to indicate they must be God's natural laws, and only recently discovered within the last 40 years. To many this is understood as advancing truth.

Any interpretation that does not conform to valid rules of interpretation, is a private interpretation. If you believe your interpretation is correct than please reveal to me the rules of interpretation that you consider to be valid. If you are unaware of the importance of valid rules of interpretation, then you like thousands of others are being mislead into believing interpretations lacking a solid foundation.

Which Decree?
The Bible alludes to four decrees which were granted to the Jews for the restoration of their homeland! How do we know which decree is the one referred to in Daniel 9. The first decree was given in a Friday year, 536 B.C., by Cyrus (Ezra 1). The second was given in a Monday year, 519 B.C., by Darius (Ezra 6).

The third and fourth decrees were given by Artaxerxes one in the Sunday year of 457 B.C. and the other in the Sabbath year of 444 B.C. (Ezra 7 and Nehemiah 2). Some people say the fourth decree was given in 445 B.C., but even if this were true, 445 is a Friday year. So, which of these decrees did God want the Jews to begin counting from?

God gave a clue as to which decree would start this prophecy. The time-period itself is 70 weeks and as such, the time-period requires that the decree fall in a Sunday year in order for to be called “a week”. In other words, 70 weeks is the clue about the date of origin because a week in the Bible always starts on Sunday and ends with the Sabbath the seventy day of the week.

History proves this to be true. For example, 69 weeks after 536 B.C.(the first decree) is 53 B.C. (too early for the appearing of Christ); 69 weeks after the second decree in 519 B.C. is 36 B.C. (still too early). And 69 weeks after 457 B.C. ( third decree) is A.D. 27 (right on time). Therefore, the 70th week, began in AD 27, in which Christ was baptized, and began is earth ministry.

The dating of the seventieth week looks like this: AD 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 32, AD 33.

Note that AD 30 is the middle of the seventieth week and scripture proves Christ died in AD 30, right on time. No coincidence! And the seventy weeks were fulfilled in AD 33.

 

[Major1]

Yes Major1, I do. For a simple clarification to readers on this post I earlier ask Major1 for the starting or ending date for the 69 year time line on a chart he posted. His response was, "The short answer is NO! NO ONE can give you any date."

My, response: Please consider the following questions. After Babylon completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple, on it’s third and final assault in 586 BC, did the Jews eventually rebuild the city and temple, yes or no? The correct answer, is yes. If this weren’t true then how could the city and temple have been destroyed for the second time 656 years latter in AD 70 by the Romans?

These historical facts proves beyond reasonable argument that the seventy week prophecy of (Dan.9) starting date, (…from the issuance of the command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem…) mentioned in vs.25, has been fulfilled in the past. However, you believe it is yet future and no one can give any date. I have never heard anyone make such a statement, and it has really baffled me.

Let me be very transparent and show you four valid rules that I believe God built into His prophecies, that if understood and used correctly prevents individuals of all religions to arrive at nearly the same interpretation. In so doing they will override our personal religious bias so that we can understand the true and intended meaning of apocalyptic prophecy.

1. Each apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning and ending point in time and the
events within each prophecy must occur in the order they are given.

2. A fulfillment of apocalyptic prophecy occurs when all of the specifications within that prophecy are met. This includes the order of events outlined in the prophecy.

3. Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic, or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible that define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic.

4. God measures apocalyptic time in two ways: (a) a day for a year, and (b) as literal time. The presence or absence of the Jubilee calendar (1437 B.C. - 1994) determines how prophetic timing is determined.

These four laws/rules of interpretation have been consistently confirmed to be a constant in all fulfilled apocalyptic to date. Which seems to indicate they must be God's natural laws, and only recently discovered within the last 40 years. To many this is understood as advancing truth.

Any interpretation that does not conform to valid rules of interpretation, is a private interpretation. If you believe your interpretation is correct than please reveal to me the rules of interpretation that you consider to be valid. If you are unaware of the importance of valid rules of interpretation, then you like thousands of others are being mislead into believing interpretations lacking a solid foundation.

Which Decree?
The Bible alludes to four decrees which were granted to the Jews for the restoration of their homeland! How do we know which decree is the one referred to in Daniel 9. The first decree was given in a Friday year, 536 B.C., by Cyrus (Ezra 1). The second was given in a Monday year, 519 B.C., by Darius (Ezra 6).

The third and fourth decrees were given by Artaxerxes one in the Sunday year of 457 B.C. and the other in the Sabbath year of 444 B.C. (Ezra 7 and Nehemiah 2). Some people say the fourth decree was given in 445 B.C., but even if this were true, 445 is a Friday year. So, which of these decrees did God want the Jews to begin counting from?

God gave a clue as to which decree would start this prophecy. The time-period itself is 70 weeks and as such, the time-period requires that the decree fall in a Sunday year in order for to be called “a week”. In other words, 70 weeks is the clue about the date of origin because a week in the Bible always starts on Sunday and ends with the Sabbath the seventy day of the week.

History proves this to be true. For example, 69 weeks after 536 B.C.(the first decree) is 53 B.C. (too early for the appearing of Christ); 69 weeks after the second decree in 519 B.C. is 36 B.C. (still too early). And 69 weeks after 457 B.C. ( third decree) is A.D. 27 (right on time). Therefore, the 70th week, began in AD 27, in which Christ was baptized, and began is earth ministry.

The dating of the seventieth week looks like this: AD 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 32, AD 33.

Note that AD 30 is the middle of the seventieth week and scripture proves Christ died in AD 30, right on time. No coincidence! And the seventy weeks were fulfilled in AD 33.

I believe that what you are espousing is called "PRETEARISM".

You are of the belief that all the prophecies of the Bible and 2nd coming have taken place. Preterists believe all Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled: this includes Matthew 24 as well as the entire book of Revelation.

I will not take the time to post a long response but I will say that the opinions of that particular teaching are not Biblically sound nor historically accurate.

IF....IF the 70 weeks of Daniel were fulfilled in 33 AD, then we would actually be in the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 22.

Since we see crying, disasters, wars, disease, and death, that just can not be the case at all.

However.....you appear to have put a lot of work into making your opinions believable so good luck my friend with your thoughts.

 

[Tim Ray]

I believe that what you are espousing is called "PRETEARISM".

You are of the belief that all the prophecies of the Bible and 2nd coming have taken place. Preterists believe all Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled: this includes Matthew 24 as well as the entire book of Revelation.

I will not take the time to post a long response but I will say that the opinions of that particular teaching are not Biblically sound nor historically accurate.

IF....IF the 70 weeks of Daniel were fulfilled in 33 AD, then we would actually be in the New Heaven and New Earth of Revelation 22.

Since we see crying, disasters, wars, disease, and death, that just can not be the case at all.

However.....you appear to have put a lot of work into making your opinions believable so good luck my friend with your thoughts.

Major1, I' do not believe in Preterism, Futurism, Idealism nor Historicism. Each of theses schools of interpretation are built on invalid rules of interpretation, to promote the perspectives of various religions. Not one of them claim that their laws are God's natural laws.

What I've shared with you are, because they are consistently proven to exist in all fulfilled apocalyptic prophecy. What better proof can one ask for? This my friend is how all of God's natural laws have been discovered over the ages in various fields of study.

Please reread the four laws I shared with you
carefully. Then ask yourself this question. Would this rule of interpretation force the prophecy to speak for itself, regardless of my religious bias?

Then, which do you prefer, laws that promote your religious bias, or laws that cut through all religious bias?

As you know I am an SDA. Adventist believe in the Historical method of interpretation. As I've stated I do not. My faith is in the Bible and Bible only. Unlike most Christians, their faith is in their religion, howbeit, they may not be aware of it.

The four natural laws God built into apocalyptic prophecy which the Holy Spirit has revealed in the last forty years is to test where ones faith lies. In ones religion or God's word. This will be very crucial during the tribulation as God will use present truth too separates the sheep from the goats.

Do you wish to continue in defending your interpretations built on invalid rules, of which I assume you have no idea of what they are, simply because your faith promotes it? Or do you desire to understand the intended meaning of apocalyptic prophecy based on valid, proven rules, because the Bible clearly supports it?

I sense perhaps you are at a cross road. What I've shared with you seems to make good common sense but yet, your not willing to admit that, for it would show weakness on your part.

Before any of us can grow in wisdom we first must humble ourselves before God and approach him as little children, with an opened mind and a willingness to learn. If the Holy Spirit is troubling you over my post, I encourage you to humble yourself before Him prayerfully, and seek His guidence.

Should you decide to engage in a study of Daniel an Revelation, using God's natural laws of interpretation. I can point you to a non-denominational ministry which promotes the study of end time events, in many forms of media.

 

[Major1]

Major1, I' do not believe in Preterism, Futurism, Idealism nor Historicism. Each of theses schools of interpretation are built on invalid rules of interpretation, to promote the perspectives of various religions. Not one of them claim that their laws are God's natural laws.

What I've shared with you are, because they are consistently proven to exist in all fulfilled apocalyptic prophecy. What better proof can one ask for? This my friend is how all of God's natural laws have been discovered over the ages in various fields of study.

Please reread the four laws I shared with you
carefully. Then ask yourself this question. Would this rule of interpretation force the prophecy to speak for itself, regardless of my religious bias?

Then, which do you prefer, laws that promote your religious bias, or laws that cut through all religious bias?

As you know I am an SDA. Adventist believe in the Historical method of interpretation. As I've stated I do not. My faith is in the Bible and Bible only. Unlike most Christians, their faith is in their religion, howbeit, they may not be aware of it.

The four natural laws God built into apocalyptic prophecy which the Holy Spirit has revealed in the last forty years is to test where ones faith lies. In ones religion or God's word. This will be very crucial during the tribulation as God will use present truth too separates the sheep from the goats.

Do you wish to continue in defending your interpretations built on invalid rules, of which I assume you have no idea of what they are, simply because your faith promotes it? Or do you desire to understand the intended meaning of apocalyptic prophecy based on valid, proven rules, because the Bible clearly supports it?

I sense perhaps you are at a cross road. What I've shared with you seems to make good common sense but yet, your not willing to admit that, for it would show weakness on your part.

Before any of us can grow in wisdom we first must humble ourselves before God and approach him as little children, with an opened mind and a willingness to learn. If the Holy Spirit is troubling you over my post, I encourage you to humble yourself before Him prayerfully, and seek His guidence.

Should you decide to engage in a study of Daniel an Revelation, using God's natural laws of interpretation. I can point you to a non-denominational ministry which promotes the study of end time events, in many forms of media.

I did not realize you were an SDA. That pretty much tells me why your view of prophecy is, shall I say....different.

Now you may say that you are not a Preterist, but what you have posted is definitely what they teaching is.

I am from the literal school of interpretation. That being said I am also a believer in the "Pretribulation" Rapture and actually I am saying that it is the best Bible theology which allows for all the pieces to fit together without any effort on my part.

I am not going to spend any time arguing with you and and doing that back and forth debate stuff. I instead will let you believe as you have been taught.

Be careful and stay safe.

 

[Tim Ray]

I am from the literal school of interpretation. That being said I am also a believer in the "Pretribulation" Rapture and actually I am saying that it is the best Bible theology which allows for all the pieces to fit together without any effort on my part.

 

[Tim Ray]

The Doctrine of the Rapture
First understand that the word “Rapture” is not found in the King James translation. There is also no single word used by biblical authors to describe the prophetic factors that comprise the doctrine. Its formulation came about by means of inductive reasoning. Certain biblical passages concerning the Second Coming, and the role Christians will play in that event, were blended together inductively to establish the teaching.

The modern expression “Rapture” has been invented to explain the overall teaching and the term suits the subject well. The basic tenets of the doctrine are simple. It purports that Christ will come back to this earth in two phases. He will first return secretly to rapture His church away from this world so that they might escape the Great Tribulation to occur at the end of the age. Christ then returns in a visible advent to dispense His wrath on the world’s nations. This is the general teaching.

Many details concerning these prime factors are hotly debated. There is especially much argument over the chronological features associated with it. Some think the time lapse between the two phases will be 3 ½ years, others say 7 years. Some feel that the Rapture of the ekklesia occurs before the Tribulation, others about mid-way through. Many suggest that the saints of God will be taken to heaven for protection, while others suggest a geographical area on this earth (as I have shown in various articles). 2 Some feel that only part of the ekklesia will escape, while others say all will be rescued.

These variations and others have multiplied the interpretations among those holding the belief. But all are unanimous on one point: the central theme of the “Rapture Theory” (as it is normally called in the theological world) shows that Christ will return to earth in two phases. They think Christ will come at first secretly for His saints and then He will come visibly with His saints returning with Him from heaven at the actual Second Advent. In this book, when I use the term “Rapture” standing alone, I always mean the “Rapture Theory” of the pre-tribulation theorists.

The Newness of the Doctrine
It may come as a surprise but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 C.E. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned it before 1830 (though a sentence in Pseudo-Dionysius in about 500 C.E. could be so interpreted). Of course, those who feel the origin of the teaching is in the Bible would say that it ceased being taught for some unknown reason at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830. But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19th century.

The lateness of the doctrine does not necessarily mean the teaching is wrong (only the plain statements of the Bible can reveal that). It does show that thousands of eminent scholars over seventeen centuries (including the most astute “Christian Fathers” and those of the Reformation and post-Reformation periods) must be considered prophetic dunces for not having understood so fundamental a teaching. This lapse of seventeen centuries when no one elaborated on the doctrine must be viewed as an obstacle to accepting its reliability.

The Beginnings of the Doctrine
The result of a careful investigation into the origin of the Rapture was published in 1976. This was in an excellent research book that deserves to be read by all people interested in the subject. Its title: The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin by Dave MacPherson. 3 He catalogs a great deal of historical material that answers the doctrine’s mysterious derivation. I wish to review the results of his research.

In the middle 1820’s a religious environment began to be established among a few Christians in London, England which proved to be the catalyst from which the doctrine of the Rapture emerged. Expectations of the soon coming of our Lord were being voiced. This was no new thing, but what was unusual was the teaching by a Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving that there had to be a restoration of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians chapters 12–14 just before Christ’s Second Advent. To Irving, the time had come for those spiritual manifestations to occur. Among the expected gifts was the renewal of speaking in tongues and of prophetic utterances motivated by the spirit.

Irving began to propagate his beliefs. His oratorical skills and enthusiasm caused his congregation in London to grow. Then a number of people began to experience the “gifts.” Once this happened, opposition from the organized churches set in. It resulted in Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church in 1832. His group established themselves as the Catholic Apostolic Church and continued the teachings of Irving. These events were the beginnings of what some call present day Pentecostalism. Some church historians referred to Irving as “the father of modern Pentecostalism.”

What does this have to do with the origin of the Rapture doctrine? Look at what happened in the year 1830 — two years before Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church. In that year a revival of the “gifts” began to be manifested among some people living in the lowlands of Scotland. They experienced what they called the outpouring of the Spirit. It was accompanied with speaking in “tongues” and other charismatic phenomena. Irving preached that these things must occur and now they were.

On one particular evening, the power of the Holy Spirit was said to have rested on a Miss Margaret Macdonald while she was ill at home. She was dangerously sick and thought she was dying. In spite of this (or perhaps because she is supposed to have come under the “power” of the spirit) for several successive hours she experienced manifestations of “mingled prophecy and vision.” She found her mind in an altered state and began to experience considerable visionary activity.

The message she received during this prophetic vision convinced her that Christ was going to appear in two stages at His Second Advent, and not a single occasion as most all people formerly believed. The spirit emanation revealed that Christ would first come in glory to those who look for Him and again later in a final stage when every eye would see Him. This visionary experience of Miss Macdonald represented the prime source of the modern Rapture doctrine as the historical evidence compiled by Mr. MacPherson reveals.

The Influence of John Darby
Many people have thought that John Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren, was the originator of the Rapture doctrine. This is not the case. Darby was a brilliant theologian with outstanding scholarly abilities. Even those who disagreed with his teachings admit that he, and many associated with him, helped cause a revival in biblical learning throughout the evangelical world which has perpetuated down to the present day. All who love biblical research ought to be thankful for what Darby and especially his associates accomplished for biblical scholarship. These early men helped pave the way particularly for the renewal of modern lexical studies in the biblical languages.

This renewal of language studies was not the only thing they produced. The doctrine of “dispensationalism” was also a teaching they brought to the attention of the Protestant world. And then, there was this new doctrine termed the “Rapture.” While many Christians long thought the Rapture doctrine originated with John Darby, it is now known that this was not true. Darby did popularize it. Scofield and others took it over. But Darby provided the intellectual mantle that helped make it respectable. Many of those in the evangelical sphere of Christianity today are so certain of its veracity that it is accepted as the absolute truth of God. The fact is, however, John Darby received the knowledge of the doctrine from someone else. His source was Margaret Macdonald.

The studies of Mr. MacPherson show that her sickness during which she received her visions and revelations occurred sometime between February 1 and April 14, 1830. By late spring and early summer of 1830, her belief in the two phases of Christ’s coming was mentioned in praise and prayer meetings in several towns of western Scotland. In these meetings some people were speaking in “tongues” and other charismatic occurrences were in evidence. Modern “Pentecostalism” had its birth.

These extraordinary and strange events so attracted John Darby that he made a trip to the area to witness what was going on. Though he did not approve of the ecstatic episodes that he witnessed, it is nonetheless significant that Darby, after returning from Scotland, began to teach that Christ’s Advent would occur in two phases. MacPherson shows good evidence that Darby even visited Miss Macdonald in her home. There can hardly be any doubt that the visions and spiritual experiences of Miss Macdonald are the source of the modern doctrine. But belief in such paranormal experiences is dangerous, especially when they are contrary to scriptural teachings.

Visions and Dreams
While it is possible that visionary revelations can come from God, it is always prudent to be cautious in such matters. Near the same time Miss Macdonald was receiving her visions, Joseph Smith in America was experiencing his apparitions that brought Mormon doctrines to the world. John Wilson also had his dreams that were the spark that started the false teaching of British-Israelism. Not long afterwards, Ellen G. White received her visions that resulted in many Seventh Day Adventist teachings. And remarkably, all these individuals received revelations of doctrines supposedly from God that were much at variance with one another and contrary to biblical teachings. Such incidents bring to mind the warning that God gave to Moses.

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto you, saying, ‘let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them’; you shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord proves [tests] you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”

• Deuteronomy 13:1–3
  

In regard to the teachings of visionaries, recall what the apostle John commanded Christians.

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” 4

• 1 John 4:1
  

And though some refer to the prophecy of Daniel that “knowledge shall be increased” (Daniel 12:4) as proof that the revival of doctrinal truths will occur at the end of the age, this is not what Daniel meant. If you read the prophet carefully you will find Daniel was speaking that “the knowledge” of his prophecies will be increased, not the revival of general doctrines. In the original text of Daniel, the definite article occurs before the word “knowledge.” Daniel said “THE knowledge will be increased,” and the text shows he meant “the knowledge of his prophecies.” Daniel was in no way speaking about a renewing of doctrines at the Time of the End.

A further admonition is necessary concerning the origins of visionary teachings that might emerge near our own time. It is by the apostle Paul and we should pay close attention to it.

“Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.”

• 1 Timothy 4:1
  

These warnings from God’s word are a reminder that we should exercise caution in accepting the truthfulness of visionary revelations, particularly those near the end of the age, and which are contradictory to one another and to the Bible. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory is such a doctrine; a teaching with no scriptural warrant. After all, the Holy Scriptures makes it plain that the first resurrection (when Christians from the past have their resurrections and we are caught up to heaven with Christ) occurs after the Tribulation is over (Revelation 20:5). And though a number of people within the Body of Christ have taken up with this false doctrine, it is time to jettison it from Christian belief.

The truth is, we will be protected from the evils of the Antichrist system (and the judgments of the Great Tribulation) by a mantle of safety from God that will protect us on earth. There is only one Second Advent of Christ and that is the moment (for all of us then living) we will be changed into immortality and the resurrection of the dead takes place. That is when all of us will meet Christ in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18). We can believe this teaching with full assurance and faith. Remember, God cares for you and all the Body of Christ.

1 To prevent people from understanding this natural meaning of the word, even the Concordant Version incorrectly translated the word as “former.” This is sad! This departure from the principles of true translation is against the very principles of proper translation that Concordant Version correctly endorse. The Concordant Version is in most places, however, an excellent translation of the New Testament. The lapse in this Version shows how strong doctrinal beliefs can be and how they influence translators to mistranslate texts of the Scriptures to support their false theories. All of us must reject this type of approach. ELM

2 See Dr. Martin’s articles “The Place of Safety” at The Place of Safety and “Personal Safety During End-Time Prophecy” at Personal Safety During End-Time Prophecy. DWS

3 An updated edition of this work by David MacPherson is retitled, The Rapture Plot (Simpsonville, SC: Millennium III Pub, 1995). ELM

4 This verse is also saying that false prophets have a relationship (in various and sundry ways) with spirits. DWS

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[Major1]

The Doctrine of the Rapture
First understand that the word “Rapture” is not found in the King James translation. There is also no single word used by biblical authors to describe the prophetic factors that comprise the doctrine. Its formulation came about by means of inductive reasoning. Certain biblical passages concerning the Second Coming, and the role Christians will play in that event, were blended together inductively to establish the teaching.

The modern expression “Rapture” has been invented to explain the overall teaching and the term suits the subject well. The basic tenets of the doctrine are simple. It purports that Christ will come back to this earth in two phases. He will first return secretly to rapture His church away from this world so that they might escape the Great Tribulation to occur at the end of the age. Christ then returns in a visible advent to dispense His wrath on the world’s nations. This is the general teaching.

Many details concerning these prime factors are hotly debated. There is especially much argument over the chronological features associated with it. Some think the time lapse between the two phases will be 3 ½ years, others say 7 years. Some feel that the Rapture of the ekklesia occurs before the Tribulation, others about mid-way through. Many suggest that the saints of God will be taken to heaven for protection, while others suggest a geographical area on this earth (as I have shown in various articles). 2 Some feel that only part of the ekklesia will escape, while others say all will be rescued.

These variations and others have multiplied the interpretations among those holding the belief. But all are unanimous on one point: the central theme of the “Rapture Theory” (as it is normally called in the theological world) shows that Christ will return to earth in two phases. They think Christ will come at first secretly for His saints and then He will come visibly with His saints returning with Him from heaven at the actual Second Advent. In this book, when I use the term “Rapture” standing alone, I always mean the “Rapture Theory” of the pre-tribulation theorists.

The Newness of the Doctrine
It may come as a surprise but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 C.E. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned it before 1830 (though a sentence in Pseudo-Dionysius in about 500 C.E. could be so interpreted). Of course, those who feel the origin of the teaching is in the Bible would say that it ceased being taught for some unknown reason at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830. But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19th century.

The lateness of the doctrine does not necessarily mean the teaching is wrong (only the plain statements of the Bible can reveal that). It does show that thousands of eminent scholars over seventeen centuries (including the most astute “Christian Fathers” and those of the Reformation and post-Reformation periods) must be considered prophetic dunces for not having understood so fundamental a teaching. This lapse of seventeen centuries when no one elaborated on the doctrine must be viewed as an obstacle to accepting its reliability.

The Beginnings of the Doctrine
The result of a careful investigation into the origin of the Rapture was published in 1976. This was in an excellent research book that deserves to be read by all people interested in the subject. Its title: The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin by Dave MacPherson. 3 He catalogs a great deal of historical material that answers the doctrine’s mysterious derivation. I wish to review the results of his research.

In the middle 1820’s a religious environment began to be established among a few Christians in London, England which proved to be the catalyst from which the doctrine of the Rapture emerged. Expectations of the soon coming of our Lord were being voiced. This was no new thing, but what was unusual was the teaching by a Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving that there had to be a restoration of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians chapters 12–14 just before Christ’s Second Advent. To Irving, the time had come for those spiritual manifestations to occur. Among the expected gifts was the renewal of speaking in tongues and of prophetic utterances motivated by the spirit.

Irving began to propagate his beliefs. His oratorical skills and enthusiasm caused his congregation in London to grow. Then a number of people began to experience the “gifts.” Once this happened, opposition from the organized churches set in. It resulted in Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church in 1832. His group established themselves as the Catholic Apostolic Church and continued the teachings of Irving. These events were the beginnings of what some call present day Pentecostalism. Some church historians referred to Irving as “the father of modern Pentecostalism.”

What does this have to do with the origin of the Rapture doctrine? Look at what happened in the year 1830 — two years before Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church. In that year a revival of the “gifts” began to be manifested among some people living in the lowlands of Scotland. They experienced what they called the outpouring of the Spirit. It was accompanied with speaking in “tongues” and other charismatic phenomena. Irving preached that these things must occur and now they were.

On one particular evening, the power of the Holy Spirit was said to have rested on a Miss Margaret Macdonald while she was ill at home. She was dangerously sick and thought she was dying. In spite of this (or perhaps because she is supposed to have come under the “power” of the spirit) for several successive hours she experienced manifestations of “mingled prophecy and vision.” She found her mind in an altered state and began to experience considerable visionary activity.

The message she received during this prophetic vision convinced her that Christ was going to appear in two stages at His Second Advent, and not a single occasion as most all people formerly believed. The spirit emanation revealed that Christ would first come in glory to those who look for Him and again later in a final stage when every eye would see Him. This visionary experience of Miss Macdonald represented the prime source of the modern Rapture doctrine as the historical evidence compiled by Mr. MacPherson reveals.

The Influence of John Darby
Many people have thought that John Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren, was the originator of the Rapture doctrine. This is not the case. Darby was a brilliant theologian with outstanding scholarly abilities. Even those who disagreed with his teachings admit that he, and many associated with him, helped cause a revival in biblical learning throughout the evangelical world which has perpetuated down to the present day. All who love biblical research ought to be thankful for what Darby and especially his associates accomplished for biblical scholarship. These early men helped pave the way particularly for the renewal of modern lexical studies in the biblical languages.

This renewal of language studies was not the only thing they produced. The doctrine of “dispensationalism” was also a teaching they brought to the attention of the Protestant world. And then, there was this new doctrine termed the “Rapture.” While many Christians long thought the Rapture doctrine originated with John Darby, it is now known that this was not true. Darby did popularize it. Scofield and others took it over. But Darby provided the intellectual mantle that helped make it respectable. Many of those in the evangelical sphere of Christianity today are so certain of its veracity that it is accepted as the absolute truth of God. The fact is, however, John Darby received the knowledge of the doctrine from someone else. His source was Margaret Macdonald.

The studies of Mr. MacPherson show that her sickness during which she received her visions and revelations occurred sometime between February 1 and April 14, 1830. By late spring and early summer of 1830, her belief in the two phases of Christ’s coming was mentioned in praise and prayer meetings in several towns of western Scotland. In these meetings some people were speaking in “tongues” and other charismatic occurrences were in evidence. Modern “Pentecostalism” had its birth.

These extraordinary and strange events so attracted John Darby that he made a trip to the area to witness what was going on. Though he did not approve of the ecstatic episodes that he witnessed, it is nonetheless significant that Darby, after returning from Scotland, began to teach that Christ’s Advent would occur in two phases. MacPherson shows good evidence that Darby even visited Miss Macdonald in her home. There can hardly be any doubt that the visions and spiritual experiences of Miss Macdonald are the source of the modern doctrine. But belief in such paranormal experiences is dangerous, especially when they are contrary to scriptural teachings.

Visions and Dreams
While it is possible that visionary revelations can come from God, it is always prudent to be cautious in such matters. Near the same time Miss Macdonald was receiving her visions, Joseph Smith in America was experiencing his apparitions that brought Mormon doctrines to the world. John Wilson also had his dreams that were the spark that started the false teaching of British-Israelism. Not long afterwards, Ellen G. White received her visions that resulted in many Seventh Day Adventist teachings. And remarkably, all these individuals received revelations of doctrines supposedly from God that were much at variance with one another and contrary to biblical teachings. Such incidents bring to mind the warning that God gave to Moses.

“If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and gives you a sign or wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto you, saying, ‘let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them’; you shall not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord proves [tests] you, to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.”

• Deuteronomy 13:1–3

In regard to the teachings of visionaries, recall what the apostle John commanded Christians.

“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” 4

• 1 John 4:1

And though some refer to the prophecy of Daniel that “knowledge shall be increased” (Daniel 12:4) as proof that the revival of doctrinal truths will occur at the end of the age, this is not what Daniel meant. If you read the prophet carefully you will find Daniel was speaking that “the knowledge” of his prophecies will be increased, not the revival of general doctrines. In the original text of Daniel, the definite article occurs before the word “knowledge.” Daniel said “THE knowledge will be increased,” and the text shows he meant “the knowledge of his prophecies.” Daniel was in no way speaking about a renewing of doctrines at the Time of the End.

A further admonition is necessary concerning the origins of visionary teachings that might emerge near our own time. It is by the apostle Paul and we should pay close attention to it.

“Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.”

• 1 Timothy 4:1

These warnings from God’s word are a reminder that we should exercise caution in accepting the truthfulness of visionary revelations, particularly those near the end of the age, and which are contradictory to one another and to the Bible. The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory is such a doctrine; a teaching with no scriptural warrant. After all, the Holy Scriptures makes it plain that the first resurrection (when Christians from the past have their resurrections and we are caught up to heaven with Christ) occurs after the Tribulation is over (Revelation 20:5). And though a number of people within the Body of Christ have taken up with this false doctrine, it is time to jettison it from Christian belief.

The truth is, we will be protected from the evils of the Antichrist system (and the judgments of the Great Tribulation) by a mantle of safety from God that will protect us on earth. There is only one Second Advent of Christ and that is the moment (for all of us then living) we will be changed into immortality and the resurrection of the dead takes place. That is when all of us will meet Christ in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:13–18). We can believe this teaching with full assurance and faith. Remember, God cares for you and all the Body of Christ.

1 To prevent people from understanding this natural meaning of the word, even the Concordant Version incorrectly translated the word as “former.” This is sad! This departure from the principles of true translation is against the very principles of proper translation that Concordant Version correctly endorse. The Concordant Version is in most places, however, an excellent translation of the New Testament. The lapse in this Version shows how strong doctrinal beliefs can be and how they influence translators to mistranslate texts of the Scriptures to support their false theories. All of us must reject this type of approach. ELM

2 See Dr. Martin’s articles “The Place of Safety” at The Place of Safety and “Personal Safety During End-Time Prophecy” at Personal Safety During End-Time Prophecy. DWS

3 An updated edition of this work by David MacPherson is retitled, The Rapture Plot (Simpsonville, SC: Millennium III Pub, 1995). ELM

4 This verse is also saying that false prophets have a relationship (in various and sundry ways) with spirits. DWS

Order our Book: Essentials of New Testament Doctrine to read all the chapters.

Go to ASK Home Page • Print Page

© 1976-2017 Associates for Scriptural Knowledge - ASK is supported by freewill contributions

Tim.....the fact that the "word" Rapture is not in the Bible is not significant at all.

The word "Trinity" is not in the Bible either but I certainly hope you understand that it is an essential to salvation.

Then the "Newness" of the Rapture dcotrine in also insignificant and in fact not true.

1 Thesslonians and 1 Corinthians where the Rapture Scriptures are found were written 2000 years ago.

Salvation by Grace though faith was written 2000 years ago but did not become a doctrinal teaching until 1560's with Martin Luther.

The church will be protected during the Tribulation because it will not be here on this earth. Born again believers will be caught away to heaven to be with the Lord just as is recorded in Thessalonians and Corinthians.

 

[Major1]

Doug, appreciate your question. I"m assuming, you as so many, believe the nation of Israel will play a large role in closing events. I do not share this belief, (you should view my earlier post) I believe God terminated Israel as His trustees of the Gospel commission at the end of the seventy weeks of (Dan.9) The seventy weeks end in AD 33.

The larger contexts of (Mat. 24:15-16) is Christ response to the questions put to him by His disciples, they wanted signs of when the temple would be destroyed, and signs of His coming.
So Jesus's reply covers both events, the destruction of the temple in their life time, 70AD, and His coming, yet future from our day. These events are co-mingled in Jesus's response.

The sign given to the followers of Christ in Jerusalem before the the city and temple complex would be destroyed was "When you see the abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place, you are to Flee to the mountains. My understanding of the actual fulfillment of this sign was, when the gentile Roman army set up it's position inside of the perimeter (150yds. out from the wall of the city) of the land that was granted to the priest, which was consider Holy, they were to flee to the mountains. It is said that not one christian died, that acted on this prophecy spoken by Christ, and recorded in both Luke and Matthew.

That portion of Jesus's prophecy about the destruction of the temple is history, as well as the warning for the Jew's to flee to the mountains.

In verses 21, 22, Jesus then is speaking about the events of the seven trumpets and seven bowl judgements of Revelation, leading up to His second coming. So destructive are these physical events which include world wide earth quakes recorded in (Rev.8:5) the opening of the trumpets and the last of four in (Rev.16:18-20) the seventh bowl. These events have no comparison to events of the past, but for the sake of God's people they will be cut short, least anybody could survive.

These are yet to come and they will affect every individual living on earth at that time.

You may be reluctant to admit it but your understandings are very, very close to the "Preterist" position.

I may be wrong and if I am please ignore these comments as all I am responding to is what YOU have stated.

As with any theological position there are those who are looked to as being more knowledgeable in this area than others.

According to Preterism- No signs today point forward to Christ's return Jesus “came” in 70 AD All of Matthew 24 is fulfilled, both partial and full Preterism agree on this and what you have said sgrees with that statement.

Now here is the problem with this kind of theology as If you think on the implications of believing the “prophecies” as past events, it can change nearly everything you have ever learned from the Bible.

Where did Preterism begin? The view that 70 AD was the fulfillment some point to its development in the 16th century. This theory is said to be invented in the early 1500’s by a Jesuit named Alcasar to counter the Reformers' claim that the Roman Catholic Church was the “great harlot... mystery Babylon” sitting on the beast in Revelation 17. Alcazar wrote a large commentary, “Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse,” which suggested the entire book of Revelation is pagan Rome and the first six centuries of the Church's existence.

He promoted that conditions will gradually improve over time, evolving into a world that has become “Christianized”, and ready for the second coming of Christ. All of the prophecies in Revelation (except for Rev 20:4-22:21) were fulfilled at A.D.70., and that Christ returned in A.D.70 in the person of the Roman armies to destroy Jerusalem and dispersed Israel. (just as Preterists believe today).

I have heard Preterists today say that Israel’s return to the land has absolutely NOTHING to do with Bible prophecy today, God is finished with the Jews. The old Jerusalem is condemned- God can’t work with Israel today because they rejected him. Israel was the Babylon of the first century etc.etc..

This has been the stance of the Roman Catholic church for over a thousand years. On June 22, 1943, the Pope (Pius XII) wrote to President Roosevelt: “It is true that at one time Palestine was inhabited by the Hebrew Race, but there is no axiom in history to substantiate the necessity of, people returning to a country they left nineteen centuries before.”

This type of teaching purposely misleads people into thinking Old Testament prophecy has been fulfilled. The obvious flaws will be addressed throughout these series of articles- their biblical, historical flaws and overall prophetic view point. When we see the very things warned about in the Scripture about the end and we are being told by this segment of the church to not be concerned, it means nothing- Watch out!
Why Preterism is not an accurate interpretation of Bible Prophecy