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Featured [moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by iamlamad, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Some people believe it will begin with the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal.
    Others say that is just the announcement: Wrath will begin at the 7th seal.
    (I need input!)
     
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  2. Bobber

    Bobber Well-Known Member

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    As for me I believe at the end of Revelation 6 and have believed that for years. But what do you say?
     
  3. ChristianGirl_96

    ChristianGirl_96 Well-Known Member Angels Team Supporter

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  4. ewq1938

    ewq1938 ran home at home Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    God's wrath begins at the 7th trumpet:

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

    The 6th seal depicts events that will occur at the 7th trump (the seals are glimpses of the future) from the perspective of the unsaved.
     
  5. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


    Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
    19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

    Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


    These appear to be all the passages in Revelation that specifically mention wrath. None of these passages appear to be meaning a time as early as the first trumpet though, therefore indicating God's wrath doesn't begin that early on.

    If we use the seals as an outline of events where those events are in chronological order, then compare the following 2 seals, this too tends to prove that God's wrath doesn't begin as early as the first trumpet.

    Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    A couple of things to note here. These martyrs are told to rest yet a little season, because it is not time for them to be avenged until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. As to their fellowservants also and their brethren, this is obviously meaning during the great tribulation, IOW, during the 42 month reign of the beast. And when we get to the 6th seal, it appears it is then time to avenge all of them, including the ones killed during the 42 month reign of the beast, the fact the 6th seal ends by declaring that the wrath of the Lamb has come.
     
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  6. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, there are some who get confused about the 7th trumpet, and think this is before the 42 month reign of the beast, rather than after it, the fact Revelation 13 is after chapter 11 rather than before it, maybe being one reason why, among others.
     
  7. Bobber

    Bobber Well-Known Member

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    Here's a problem I have with that though. Rev 6:9 states about the 5th seal that it's persecution of the saints. That's tribulation for sure...but not wrath. God doesn't dish out his wrath upon the righteous Gen 18:23 so therefore the seals IMO can't be wrath. And then in Rev 7 it states the 144,000 are sealed and then the wrath. From what I see the trumpets and vials are the same.....but the seals are before the wrath of God.
     
  8. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Revelation 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
    7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


    Does the first angel sound while they are already worshiping the beast per Revelation 13? Why this might matter is because of what it states during vial 1.

    Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

    Revelation 16:2 obviously can't precede the 42 month reign of the beast, since it makes zero sense to be pouring out the 1st vial on the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image, before they even have the mark, before they even worship his image. In order for the trumpets and vials to be the same, when the first trumpet sounds they have to already have the mark, they have to already be worshiping it's image. Can you show that all of this is already the case when the first trumpet sounds?
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    What is the probability of the same common elements being found in the following two passages unless the passages are related?


    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


    Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
    Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


    Because we find Christ coming as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, we know the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

    .
     
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  10. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I would say when the second seal events begin with the rider on the red horse which takes peace from the earth. In 1Thessalonians5, when they say "peace and safety" sudden destruction comes in the way of the Day of the Lord beginning.

    And to escape that wrath....

    9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

    10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

    11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

    I have the rider of the red horse on my chart...


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    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  11. Berean Tim

    Berean Tim Active Member

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    At the 6th seal, "the day of their wrath has come"
     
  12. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Even though I agree with you here, I sometimes have to wonder why I might, based on the fact the 6th seal has them hiding in fear in caves, and that Revelation 19 has them out in the open arrogantly opposing Christ and His armies.
     
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  13. ewq1938

    ewq1938 ran home at home Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter

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    The seals tell us of future events so naturally they are before the wrath of God but the 6th seal does speak of the time that God's wrath will come which again is the timeframe of the 7th trump. Seals are knowledge of what is coming, and the trumps are the action of events.

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


    This is speaking of the day the 7th trump sounds which is found in Revelation 11. The 6th seal can also be compared directly to the second coming found in the Olivet discourse:

    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    The same events are described regarding the return of Christ.

    the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light = the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood

    And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth = And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth

    and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken = the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together

    hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains = all the tribes of the earth mourn




    Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
    Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.


    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    The same events are described regarding the return of Christ.

    signs in the sun, and in the moon = the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood

    and in the stars = And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth

    the powers of heaven shall be shaken = the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together

    and upon the earth distress of nations = all the tribes of the earth mourn


    Men's hearts failing them for fear = all the tribes of the earth mourn

    For the great day of his wrath is come = And then shall they see the Son of man coming
     
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  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    What is the probability of the world saying "peace and safety" during the great tribulation and at the end of it?

    The wrath of the Lamb is at the end of the 7 years, and time has come for Jesus to take vengeance for the deaths of the great tribulation martyrs.

    Well before then, the wrath of God begins when the Antichrist commits the Transgression of Desolation act, shattering the peace and safety illusion the Jews and the world will be saying for thinking he is the messiah.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Is one of us quoting the scripture, and the other person is quoting himself?



    .
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    They may have been out in the open until the following occurred...

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    Can you imagine an event that moves every mountain, and island out of its place?


    .
     
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  17. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    Everyone here is familiar with the saying of "peace and safety" in 1Thessalonians5.

    If not, they can now go and read the chapter. Referral to God's wrath is in that chapter.
     
  18. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The gathering of the church is described in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4.
    The timing of that event is found in chapter 5.
    The words "we" and "sleep" in the verse below prove the chapters are connected.


    1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


    Former Pretrib believer Steven Straub shows the truth in the passage below.


    .
     
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  19. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    I don't have any disagreement with that. "Peace and Safety" of 1Thessalonians5 is on my Rapture Timing chart. I upgraded my chart to annotate 1Thessalonians5:3.

    Are you on-board with the anytime rapture view yet?

    upload_2020-6-28_22-35-20.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  20. rwb

    rwb Member

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    Why does Rev 6:16 tell us it is the wrath of the Lamb that has come? Is the language here symbolism like what we read from the prophets or physical when they foretell of the Messiah to come?

    In this passage from Isaiah's prophesy is of the day of the LORD Who would come, as destruction from the Almighty. He calls the day of the LORD cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, a time that will make the land desolate and destroy the sinners out of it.

    Isa 13:6 ¶ Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
    Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
    Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
    Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
    Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
    Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
    Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
    Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

    Prophesy from Jeremiah of the same great day of the LORD, Who would come, tells us then would be a time of Jacob's trouble, but that the LORD would break the yoke, and then they would serve the LORD their God, and David their King, whom God would raise up unto them.

    Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
    Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
    Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them

    Joel's prophesy of the day of the LORD coming is interesting, because Joel speaks of that day preceded by the appearance of horses, and horsemen. Not only do we find similar description of that day, but Joel also speaks of the day of the LORD coming with all these signs, but also with the outpouring of His Spirit, saying whosoever shall call upon the name of the LORD in that day, shall be saved. A clear reference to the New Covenant Gospel age.

    Joe 2:1 ¶ Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
    Joe 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
    Joe 2:3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
    Joe 2:4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

    Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
    Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    Joe 2:28 ¶ And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
    Joe 2:29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
    Joe 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

    Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

    One last prophet, Zephaniah, who speaks of the day of the LORD coming as a day when mighty man shall cry bitterly, a day of wrath, trouble, distress, wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, of clouds and thick darkness. Also a day of the trumpet. Distress upon men who have sinned against the LORD, and riddance of all them that dwell in the land, when the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy.

    Zep 1:14 ¶ The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
    Zep 1:15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
    Zep 1:16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
    Zep 1:17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
    Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

    What I've tried to show is that Rev 6 wrath of the Lamb, Who has come, is the same day/age of the Lord to come all the prophets foretell of. Just as they speak of this age as one of great wrath of God, I believe Rev 6 too, like all the prophets write of the whole New Covenant Gospel age as though the total wrath of God has come when the promised Messiah came to this earth a man. I believe all these prophecies foretell the culmination of the wrath of the Almighty to come because Christ the Messiah has come with His Kingdom. All of these depict the end of this age of the Messiah, the age in which the wrath of the Lamb has come. And with His coming there will be one final climatic event the prophets saw as belonging to His first coming. But since we have hindsight they lacked we know the final outpouring described by all the prophets will come when Christ comes again.

    So, I believe Rev 6 speaks of the day of the Lord coming as the Lamb of God that will culminate with the great day of His wrath to come, but would also be an age of condemnation and rescue, depending upon whosoever believes the Gospel.
     
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