[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

ewq1938 said:

God's wrath begins at the 7th trumpet:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The 6th seal depicts events that will occur at the 7th trump (the seals are glimpses of the future) from the perspective of the unsaved.

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DavidPT said:

Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


These appear to be all the passages in Revelation that specifically mention wrath. None of these passages appear to be meaning a time as early as the first trumpet though, therefore indicating God's wrath doesn't begin that early on.

If we use the seals as an outline of events where those events are in chronological order, then compare the following 2 seals, this too tends to prove that God's wrath doesn't begin as early as the first trumpet.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

A couple of things to note here. These martyrs are told to rest yet a little season, because it is not time for them to be avenged until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. As to their fellowservants also and their brethren, this is obviously meaning during the great tribulation, IOW, during the 42 month reign of the beast. And when we get to the 6th seal, it appears it is then time to avenge all of them, including the ones killed during the 42 month reign of the beast, the fact the 6th seal ends by declaring that the wrath of the Lamb has come.

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DavidPT said:

Unfortunately, there are some who get confused about the 7th trumpet, and think this is before the 42 month reign of the beast, rather than after it, the fact Revelation 13 is after chapter 11 rather than before it, maybe being one reason why, among others.

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Bobber said:

Here's a problem I have with that though. Rev 6:9 states about the 5th seal that it's persecution of the saints. That's tribulation for sure...but not wrath. God doesn't dish out his wrath upon the righteous Gen 18:23 so therefore the seals IMO can't be wrath. And then in Rev 7 it states the 144,000 are sealed and then the wrath. From what I see the trumpets and vials are the same.....but the seals are before the wrath of God.

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DavidPT said:

Revelation 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


Does the first angel sound while they are already worshiping the beast per Revelation 13? Why this might matter is because of what it states during vial 1.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Revelation 16:2 obviously can't precede the 42 month reign of the beast, since it makes zero sense to be pouring out the 1st vial on the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image, before they even have the mark, before they even worship his image. In order for the trumpets and vials to be the same, when the first trumpet sounds they have to already have the mark, they have to already be worshiping it's image. Can you show that all of this is already the case when the first trumpet sounds?

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Douggg said:

What is the probability of the world saying "peace and safety" during the great tribulation and at the end of it?

The wrath of the Lamb is at the end of the 7 years, and time has come for Jesus to take vengeance for the deaths of the great tribulation martyrs.

Well before then, the wrath of God begins when the Antichrist commits the Transgression of Desolation act, shattering the peace and safety illusion the Jews and the world will be saying for thinking he is the messiah.

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BABerean2 said:

They may have been out in the open until the following occurred...

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Can you imagine an event that moves every mountain, and island out of its place?

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Tim Ray said:

Reading many of these post here on this thread, I see there are some who believe in some form of rapture for the saints during the tribulation. I wish it were true, but a thorough study of the subject doesn't support the teaching. If you have any doubts please consider the attached study.
Never, never, put your faith in the numbers of believers who believe as you do
as proof that what you believe is true. For many enter through the broad gate, but few the narrow gate.
Please do your do diligence in studying this issue.

Chapter 14 – a Rapture or the Second Coming?

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BABerean2 said:

The greatest earthquake in history is found in Revelation chapter 16, when He comes as a thief at Armageddon.

Notice the reference again to mountains and islands in verse 20.


Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.



Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken "first" to Daniel's people for a period of about seven years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles. This was the 70th week of Daniel during the first century.

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DavidPT said:

The 7th trumpet clearly sounds during the 6th seal events. That obviously indicates that the first trumpet sounds before the 6th seal events.

At the end of the 6th seal they are seen hiding in caves in fear of their lives. And if the following, for example, is chronologically meaning after the events recorded in the 6th seal---Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth---where are the passages that show when they and how they come out of hiding in caves in order to fulfill this part?


Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:


Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

What I'm looking for are the verses that fit between these two passages showing when they and how they come out of hiding in caves in order to eventually fulfill what is recorded in Revelation 11:10. Unless you can produce that, then maybe you would be better off keeping your unnecessary sarcasm to yourself in the meantime.

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The 7th trumpet clearly sounds during the 6th seal events.

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keras said:

What that belief is; is pure supposition, made to suit the pre-conceived belief of the 'rapture to heaven' theory.

Heaven is never mentioned anywhere in Revelation 7.
John's visions are all of earthly scenes, that vast multitude of Christians, are all of the faithful ones who have proved their faith, by standing strong during the just happened Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

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