[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

5thKingdom

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It is very important to grasp that the person we all talk about is the Antichrist only for the brief period he is the King of Israel.

The other times, he is the King of the Roman Empire (equilvalent in the end times as the EU, formed by the treaties of Rome, originally as the common market).

How can we know, it means the leader of the EU? Because in Daniel, 7 there were four beasts that Daniel saw in a vision come out of the sea. These are almost universally understood to be the babylon empire, the medes/persians, the greek empire, the Roman Empire as the fourth of those kingdoms.

In the end times, when the kingdom of God is brought here to earth to be given to the saints of God, which will include Israel, the Jewish people, at that time, there are ten kings that will rise out of that fourth kingdom.


23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. [the second half of the 7 years, essentially]

The another (in red) we can know from earlier verses in Daniel 7, that is the little horn person.


19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Going still futher back in Daniel 7,

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

________________________________________________________________________

So we can know that the little horn comes out of the fourth kingdom. And all we have to is figure out what that kingdom would look like today. Which is the EU. Which also contains Rome.

Ronit, it took me almost 50 years, I am 71, double your age, to get to my present place of understanding of the end time prophecies. You don't have to learn it in a single day. But you have an opportunity, to learn it all much much faster than I did. In a very short time.

What will help you if you study that chart I made, and follow the red line down through it and read each of the scripture passages I annotated.




Everything you said is complete nonsense.

First Proof: The Bible PROMISES that the Truth about
Daniel's prophecies remain "closed-up" and "sealed" to
all saints until the Last Saints. And the scenario you just
outlined has been around (in one form or another) since
the Reformation. Therefore we KNOW it is wrong because
the Bible PROMISED it would be "sealed" until the end.

Second Proof: The Fourth Beast is DESTROYED in the
Lake of Fire while the previous Beasts/Kingdoms have
"their lives prolonged for a Season and Time".

In other words... you must pretend that the PEOPLE
living in the fourth Beast/Kingdom are cast into the Lake
while the PEOPLE from the previous Kingdoms/Beasts
continue to live on earth.

Third Proof:
The PEOPLE called the "ten virgins" [Mat 25] are the
SAME PEOPLE called the ten "kings/horns" in BOTH Daniel 7
and Revelation 17. And they are the SAME PEOPLE called
ten "kings" in Daniel 2:44

So you have to harmonize the experiences of all four groups
before you can even pretend to have found Biblical Truth.

------

BTW... I am also 70 and that DOES NOT mean a thing.
There is no fool like an old fool... and your eschatology
has been around (in one form or another) since the
Reformation.

.
 
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5thKingdom

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I understand the issue of so many points of view and opinions. You are just going to have sort them and see which ones or parts make sense to you, and keep refining your own view.


Of course the PROBLEM with that logic is that TRUTH is not found
by "sorting through" several theories to see which makes sense.

There is ONE TRUTH about the events at the end of the world.

And if you do not even understand the BASICS then you have
no hope of finding more than partial-truth (at best)

Start here:
The Revelation Beast is the SAME PEOPLE as
(1) The Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
(2) The experiences of the "ten virgins" [Mat 25:1-13]
(3) The experiences of the ten "kings/horns" [Dan 7]
(4) The experiences of the ten "kings/horns" [Rev 17]
(5) The experiences of the ten "kings" [Dan 2:44]
(6) The events during the reign of the "Little Horn" [Dan 7]
(7) The events during Satan's "Little Season" [Rev 20]

Harmonize ALL the events of these PEOPLE before even
hoping to find Biblical Truth.

/
 
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Douggg

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Harmonize ALL the events of these PEOPLE before even
hoping to find Biblical Truth.
Make a timeline chart that harmonizes all of the events and present it.
 
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5thKingdom

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Make a timeline chart that harmonizes all of the events and present it.

No... I would rather harmonize ALL RELATED Scriptures.

I challenge you to try to harmonize ALL RELATED Scriptures
because your "time chart" does not do that, and therefore,
is just wrong.

You cannot even pretend to have found Biblical Truth when
you have not harmonized ALL RELATED passages.


/
 
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BABerean2

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(2) During the Second Woe (Sixth Trumpet) God judges the
last "tares" in the church... those taken into the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1] They are the "foolish virgins"


A person cannot be in the New Covenant Church and be a "tare".

.
 
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Douggg

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No... I would rather harmonize ALL RELATED Scriptures.

I challenge you to try to harmonize ALL RELATED Scriptures
because your "time chart" does not do that, and therefore,
is just wrong.

You cannot even pretend to have found Biblical Truth when
you have not harmonized ALL RELATED passages.


/
Present your chart then.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Some people believe it will begin with the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal.
Others say that is just the announcement: Wrath will begin at the 7th seal.
(I need input!)
The Day of the Lord is on the last day when all will be resurrected both the good and the evil to be judged. All scrolls, seals, marks etc will have no purpose by then. Be blessed.
 
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5thKingdom

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A person cannot be in the New Covenant Church and be a "tare"..


Does that mean you think Jesus was LYING?
Jesus said very clearly the Christian Kingdom (the church)
consists of "wheat" sown by God and "tares" sown by Satan.
Is this "news" to you? Be sure to read what JESUS SAID
in the TWO (2) passages below:

But first: Here is the summary:
I DO know what I am talking about.
For you to suggest that EVERYONE in a church is saved ("wheat")
is just an amazing error.

-------------------------------
Kingdom of Wheat and Tares
---------------------------------

(1) The "Kingdom of Heaven" is an earthly Kingdom

(2) The sower of good seed represents the Lord Jesus Christ

(3) The sower of bad seed represents Satan, the King of Babylon

(4) The "Word of the Kingdom" (the seed) is the Gospel of
the New Testament

(5) The "field" represents the world, as the Gospel goes forth
to both Jew and Gentile

(6) The "fruit" of the field (both wheat and tares) represents
the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"

(7) The "Word of the Kingdom" gathers good fish and bad fish
during the (3rd) Christian Kingdom

(8) The (saved) "wheat" and the (unsaved) "tares" LOOK similar,
and grow together until the end-of-the-age

(9) At the end-of-the-age, the "wheat and tares" (good fish/bad fish) are separated in the "Final Harvest"


Mat 13:24-30
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The kingdom of heaven [the Christian church] is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:36-43
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

/
 
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JacksBratt

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What does the text below say?

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Who is the source of wrath in this verse?

.
Show me where only one entity can be angry with man.... at a given time.
 
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5thKingdom

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The Day of the Lord is on the last day when all will resurrected both the good and the evil to be judged. All scrolls, seals, marks etc will have no purpose. Be blessed.


No, that is wrong.
The "Day of the Lord" includes everything in the
three "WOES"... the Fifth Trumpet AND the Sixth Trumpet
AND the Seventh Trumpet

.
 
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5thKingdom

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Present your chart then.

Are really that hard of hearing?
I just told you that you don't NEED a chart.
All you NEED is to harmonize ALL RELATED Scriptures.

Does you "chart show that
the PEOPLE in the Revelation Beast are the SAME PEOPLE
in the Great Tribulation and the SAME PEOPLE as the "ten virgins"
and the SAME PEOPLE living in Daniel's Fourth Beast/kingdom
(shown as ten "kings/horns") and the SAME PEOPLE from
Rev 17 (also shown as ten "kings/horns") and the SAME PEOPLE
as the ten "kings" of Dan 2:44

No... your chart does not show any of that.
So much for the "works of man".

.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I guess you are marveling...
“Marvel not at this: for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment” (Jn. 5:28-29).
 
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Maria Billingsley

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No, that is wrong.
The "Day of the Lord" includes everything in the
three "WOES"... the Fifth Trumpet AND the Sixth Trumpet
AND the Seventh Trumpet

.
“Marvel not at this: for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment” (Jn. 5:28-29).
 
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Tim Ray

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Reading many of these post here on this thread, I see there are some who believe in some form of rapture for the saints during the tribulation. I wish it were true, but a thorough study of the subject doesn't support the teaching. If you have any doubts please consider the attached study.
Never, never, put your faith in the numbers of believers who believe as you do
as proof that what you believe is true. For many enter through the broad gate, but few the narrow gate.
Please do your do diligence in studying this issue.

Chapter 14 – a Rapture or the Second Coming?
 
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Douggg

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Are really that hard of hearing?
I just told you that you don't NEED a chart.
All you NEED is to harmonize ALL RELATED Scriptures.

Does you "chart show that
the PEOPLE in the Revelation Beast are the SAME PEOPLE
in the Great Tribulation and the SAME PEOPLE as the "ten virgins"
and the SAME PEOPLE living in Daniel's Fourth Beast/kingdom
(shown as ten "kings/horns") and the SAME PEOPLE from
Rev 17 (also shown as ten "kings/horns") and the SAME PEOPLE
as the ten "kings" of Dan 2:44

No... your chart does not show any of that.
So much for the "works of man".

.
Produce your chart which does what you say my chart doesn't.
 
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