[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

fwGod

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What is your opinion?

(1) Was Jesus a dispensationalist when He NAMED the Jewish
period a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]
Jesus didn't actually say 'I name this the Jewish period'. That's your designation. Since you emphasize it, that is an indication that you're thinking according to dispensation.

Specifically, the text Mat.22:2-14 describes the wedding as covenant that God has with the Jews, but [3] they didn't come, which speaks of the Jews not accepting Jesus as their Messiah.
[5] the mistreated ones, speaks of the prophets, and the disciples/apostles who were martyred, such as Stephan who accepted Jesus as Messiah after he was risen from the dead.
[7] the armies of God who would burn the city, speaks of the judgement upon the Jews [Mat.23:37] which resulted in the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.
[10] the wedding, speaks of the wedding supper of the Lamb (after the Bema Seat and before the Second Coming).
[11] the man who didn't have on a wedding garment, speaks of [Mat.7:13-23] that speaks of the false prophet, the lawless one, standing before Jesus at the white throne judgement. Jesus did not know him so [13] he was cast out to outer darkness [Mat.8:12].
(2) Was Jesus a dispensationalist when He NAMED the Christian
period a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13:24]
Specifically, [40] speaks of the end of the age = dispensation. The church age of grace. The apostle Paul wrote [Rom.7:4-5] we are not under law but under grace. Two ages or two dispensations.

Not only Jesus but Paul are dispensationalist. [Ephes.1:10] Dispensation of the fullness of times. [Ephes.3:11] the purpose of the ages. [Ephes.3:2] Dispensation of the grace of God. [1 Cor.9:17 Dispensation of the the gospel. [Heb.1:2] the Creator of the ages. [1 Cor.2:7; 2 Tim.1:9] before the ages. [Gal.1:4] this present evil age. [Ephes.1:21] the age to come. [1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26] the completion of the ages.
(3) Was Jesus a dispensationalish when He NAMED the Great
Tribulation period a "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]
Specifically, the meeting of the Bridegroom is the pre-Tribulation rapture. To whom the bride says "come". [Rev.21:17]
In this church age, we are the wise virgins. The foolish virgins are the Jews. They didn't have enough oil for their lamps because they have to wait longer, the end of the Tribulation to see their Messiah in His Second Coming to deliver them from the antichrist.

They had to go buy some more oil, the legal tender of the kingdom of heaven is faith. When they came back, the door had been closed. They don't go to heaven when the Christians do, even though the Feast of Trumpets is what they celebrate every year, and know more about it than the Christians do in how it speaks of the resurrection of the dead, the open door in heaven speaks of being raptured up like the apostle John was in Rev.4:1.
Of course this does not even address the Pre-Flood "Kingdom"
You, are using dispensationalist thinking concerning the Jewish period, the Christian period, the Tribulation period, and the pre-flood period.

But you say that you are not a dispensationalist.
 
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iamlamad

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You are hilarious:

(1) First you say you see no relationship between the ten virgins and ten kings/horns.
In fact you make this snarky remark

It must be imagination that links the ten virgins with ten kings. Oh, wait - they both have the number 10. that must be the link. .

(2) Than I show you the relationship.

Oh wait... the "ten virgins" [Mat 25:1-13] are living on earth when Jesus Returns
Oh wait... the ten "kings/horns" [Dan 7] are living on earth when Jesus Returns
Oh wait... the ten "kings/horns" [Rev 17] are living on earth when Jesus Returns
Oh wait... the ten "kings" [Dan 2:44] are living on earth when Jesus Returns

Probably just a coincidence right?
LOL



(3) Then you say the SCRIPTURES above are just an imagination

I would say "imagination."

(4) Then you say you and I will probably be living on earth and we are NOT
part of the "ten virgins" or ten "kings/horns"....

On this I agree with you in part.

You were NOT part of the "ten virgins" of Matthew 25:1.
But I was. That is why I can preach Biblical mysteries as the Seventh Trumpet
"begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11]

Remember, the Bible PROMISED the Last Saints (wise virgins) "shall understand"
Daniel's prophecies for the first time in history [Dan 12:8-10] and remember
Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see" the fulfillment of Great Tribulation
prophecies ("signs"), in fact, He said we would "see ALL THESE THINGS" be fulfilled
[Mat 24:15 and 24:33] and remember the Bible PROMISED the Last Saints
would be preaching these mysteries as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound".

Well, here I am preaching these mysteries and giving SCRIPTURES which you say
are just an imagination... you actually said SCRIPTURES are an imagination and
you implied the LAST SAINTS are not the "ten virgins".

Either you are correct or the BIBLE is correct.
Which do you think it is?

.
Let's make this very clear to the readers: the scriptures are TRUE. It is people's theories about the scriptures that frequently are only imagination.

Please, show us your theories are not just imagination: post SCRIPTURE to show these promises. If no scripture, then it is imagination.

There are around 7 billion people on the earth that are not related to the 10 kings - most of the 7 billion are NOT KINGS.

Next, WHICH COMING? There is going to be two more comings.
 
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Tim Ray

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Some people believe it will begin with the Day of His wrath at the 6th seal.
Others say that is just the announcement: Wrath will begin at the 7th seal.
(I need input!)

Iamlamad. Well as of this posting I see you are getting various views. As you may note I'm am an SDA christian. However, the insights I shall post are not mine personally, nor are they those of corporate Adventism, however, I do think they harmonize best with all the seventeen prophecies found in Daniel and Revelation concerning the time of the end. I do hope you will take the time to consider these insights. Blessings.

“I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, ‘Come!’ ” (Revelation 6:1)

God prepared the book of life before life on Earth and in Heaven began and we now know why He sealed it with seven seals. These seven seals also have an important purpose. Long ago, the Father ordained that the seven seals on the Book of Life would be associated with seven revelations about Jesus. The Father has infinite love and wisdom and everything He does is always ultimately beneficial. The Father’s ways never have unintended consequences. The Father foresaw the drama with sin was an opportunity to reveal many aspects of His universe. For instance, through the ministry and death of Jesus, we now can understand the ravages that come with the curse of sin, the depth of God’s love for sinners, the properties of divine love, the character and nature of God’s judicial system, the intricate balance between mercy and justice, the patience and longsuffering of a loving Father, and His thoughtfully designed plan to make lemonade out of the lemon of sin. Finally, at the end of the 1,000 years, all created beings will learn that the Father has not and will not use His foreknowledge or omnipotence to manipulate beings having free will. As a bonus, the Father has a wonderful surprise for everyone that will inherit eternal life. Because Jesus is an exact mirror of the Father, the revelation of Jesus Christ will be a perfect revelation of the Father!

Remember, before sin existed, the Father designed a process to resolve the sin problem that would take several thousand years to accomplish. When the time arrived to start the final chapter in this plan, the Father summoned the angelic host and the twenty-four elders. (Revelation 4-6; Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) At that time, the Father gave Jesus sovereign power to break the seven seals.

The twenty-four elders surrounding the throne are people who were resurrected when Jesus died on the cross (Matthew 27:52) and went to Heaven when Jesus ascended. (Ephesians 4:8) God selected two witnesses from each of the twelve tribes and gave them “front row seats.” They have occupied this exalted position because they are there as members of a special jury. The Father resurrected 24 human beings (think of them as first fruits of the dead) to observe the process He is using to resolve the sin problem. The Father is using these elders because the process involves the judgment of sinners (e.g., the redemption and the annihilation of human beings) and the 24 observers are there to maintain total transparency in the judgment process. These 24 elders are ex-sinners and the Father has given them substantial authority. If any elder witnesses a presentation or decision on another human being that appears to be incomplete, unfair, or improper, that elder has the authority to halt the judgment process until a satisfactory resolution is produced. The Father has placed 24 ex-sinners (peers of the people being judged) around the throne and given them the authority to halt the judgment process to show that He is love. He is more than fair!

When Jesus was considered as a candidate to receive the book sealed with seven seals, everyone agreed (including the 24 elders) that Jesus was the only being worthy of the task. Jesus’ perfect compliance with the Father’s will, a victorious life over every temptation, and His shed blood made him worthy to redeem man. (Revelation 5:9, John 6:38; Hebrews 5:7-10) No one but the Creator could meet the required specifications. We must not focus on Christ’s accomplishments as amazing and surreal as they are. Instead, we need to focus on the task ahead of Jesus, His use of sovereign power to break the seven seals!

Before sin began, the Father planned that opening each seal on the Book of Life would initiate a new campaign on Earth. Also, when each seal is broken, we receive a new revelation about Jesus. This is why the book of Revelation is called, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation contains seven revelations that will sweep away a thousand mysteries about Jesus. Jesus is far more than an angel or a man. Jesus is a God just like the Father is a God!

My understanding is that Jesus received the Book of Life in 1798 and He broke the first seal at that time. If indeed, a new revelation about Jesus occurs in Heaven and on Earth when each seal is broken, we should be able to find distinctive evidence of this. As the revelation of Jesus grows in glory and intensity, all creation will see a full disclosure of our Creator at a point in time. This day will occur at the end of the thousand years because each being who received life will be there. After the Father has given Jesus all the power, glory, praise, and accolades that can be given, Jesus does not retain this power forever. Jesus will not eternally bask in glory and fame that will eclipse the Father. Instead, Jesus will choose, once again, to be subject to the Father so that the Father can be God Most High and Jesus can live among His created beings as one of them. What a stunning revelation about the love, humility, and meekness of the Godhead! And the eternal bonus that goes with this knowledge is this: “Like Father – like Son!”

The seven seals are associated with these seven revelations of Jesus:

Seal 1: The salvation of Jesus

Seal 2: The teachings of Jesus

Seal 3: The judgment seat of Jesus

Seal 4: The authority of Jesus

Seal 5: The faith of Jesus

Seal 6: The glory of Jesus

Seal 7: The Deity of Jesus

Read the next segment…
 
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iamlamad

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Iamlamad. Well as of this posting I see you are getting various views. As you may note I'm am an SDA christian. However, the insights I shall post are not mine personally, nor are they those of corporate Adventism, however, I do think they harmonize best with all the seventeen prophecies found in Daniel and Revelation concerning the time of the end. I do hope you will take the time to consider these insights. Blessings.

“I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, ‘Come!’ ” (Revelation 6:1)

God prepared the book of life before life on Earth and in Heaven began and we now know why He sealed it with seven seals. These seven seals also have an important purpose. Long ago, the Father ordained that the seven seals on the Book of Life would be associated with seven revelations about Jesus. The Father has infinite love and wisdom and everything He does is always ultimately beneficial. The Father’s ways never have unintended consequences. The Father foresaw the drama with sin was an opportunity to reveal many aspects of His universe. For instance, through the ministry and death of Jesus, we now can understand the ravages that come with the curse of sin, the depth of God’s love for sinners, the properties of divine love, the character and nature of God’s judicial system, the intricate balance between mercy and justice, the patience and longsuffering of a loving Father, and His thoughtfully designed plan to make lemonade out of the lemon of sin. Finally, at the end of the 1,000 years, all created beings will learn that the Father has not and will not use His foreknowledge or omnipotence to manipulate beings having free will. As a bonus, the Father has a wonderful surprise for everyone that will inherit eternal life. Because Jesus is an exact mirror of the Father, the revelation of Jesus Christ will be a perfect revelation of the Father!

Remember, before sin existed, the Father designed a process to resolve the sin problem that would take several thousand years to accomplish. When the time arrived to start the final chapter in this plan, the Father summoned the angelic host and the twenty-four elders. (Revelation 4-6; Daniel 7:9,10,13,14) At that time, the Father gave Jesus sovereign power to break the seven seals.

The twenty-four elders surrounding the throne are people who were resurrected when Jesus died on the cross (Matthew 27:52) and went to Heaven when Jesus ascended. (Ephesians 4:8) God selected two witnesses from each of the twelve tribes and gave them “front row seats.” They have occupied this exalted position because they are there as members of a special jury. The Father resurrected 24 human beings (think of them as first fruits of the dead) to observe the process He is using to resolve the sin problem. The Father is using these elders because the process involves the judgment of sinners (e.g., the redemption and the annihilation of human beings) and the 24 observers are there to maintain total transparency in the judgment process. These 24 elders are ex-sinners and the Father has given them substantial authority. If any elder witnesses a presentation or decision on another human being that appears to be incomplete, unfair, or improper, that elder has the authority to halt the judgment process until a satisfactory resolution is produced. The Father has placed 24 ex-sinners (peers of the people being judged) around the throne and given them the authority to halt the judgment process to show that He is love. He is more than fair!

When Jesus was considered as a candidate to receive the book sealed with seven seals, everyone agreed (including the 24 elders) that Jesus was the only being worthy of the task. Jesus’ perfect compliance with the Father’s will, a victorious life over every temptation, and His shed blood made him worthy to redeem man. (Revelation 5:9, John 6:38; Hebrews 5:7-10) No one but the Creator could meet the required specifications. We must not focus on Christ’s accomplishments as amazing and surreal as they are. Instead, we need to focus on the task ahead of Jesus, His use of sovereign power to break the seven seals!

Before sin began, the Father planned that opening each seal on the Book of Life would initiate a new campaign on Earth. Also, when each seal is broken, we receive a new revelation about Jesus. This is why the book of Revelation is called, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ.” The book of Revelation contains seven revelations that will sweep away a thousand mysteries about Jesus. Jesus is far more than an angel or a man. Jesus is a God just like the Father is a God!

My understanding is that Jesus received the Book of Life in 1798 and He broke the first seal at that time. If indeed, a new revelation about Jesus occurs in Heaven and on Earth when each seal is broken, we should be able to find distinctive evidence of this. As the revelation of Jesus grows in glory and intensity, all creation will see a full disclosure of our Creator at a point in time. This day will occur at the end of the thousand years because each being who received life will be there. After the Father has given Jesus all the power, glory, praise, and accolades that can be given, Jesus does not retain this power forever. Jesus will not eternally bask in glory and fame that will eclipse the Father. Instead, Jesus will choose, once again, to be subject to the Father so that the Father can be God Most High and Jesus can live among His created beings as one of them. What a stunning revelation about the love, humility, and meekness of the Godhead! And the eternal bonus that goes with this knowledge is this: “Like Father – like Son!”

The seven seals are associated with these seven revelations of Jesus:

Seal 1: The salvation of Jesus

Seal 2: The teachings of Jesus

Seal 3: The judgment seat of Jesus

Seal 4: The authority of Jesus

Seal 5: The faith of Jesus

Seal 6: The glory of Jesus

Seal 7: The Deity of Jesus

Read the next segment…
Tim, thanks for answering.
I have attended several SDA conferences on Revelation. It seems the church holds that frequently in my city.

What have I learned? I disagree with 99% or so of SDA teaching on Revelation. For example:
Seal 1 is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL
Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. We can guess that 4th would be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began. God would allow Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts.

Was Satan successful? No! The gospel is almost anywhere today. Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age.
Seal 6 is the start of the Day of the Lord.
Seal 7 is the start of the 70th week.

As you can see, we are miles apart. But, thanks for posting.
 
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keras

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Tim Ray, I read your post. Well written but quite scripturally incorrect.
You don't take notice of what Revelation 6 actually does say.

iamlamad, Yes; there will be two Days of the Lord. The first will be His great and terrible Day of fiery wrath, a literal day when He will destroy His enemies. Best described in Isaiah 66:15-17, Malachi 4:1, and 2 Peter 3:1-7 tells us how most people will scoff at this forthcoming worldwide disaster.

The judgements in Revelation, a chronological sequence of events:

Revelation 6:1-17 The first seal - The white horse that conquers nations.
Second seal - The red horse that takes away the peace on earth.
Third seal - The black horse that controls the worlds food supply.
Fourth seal - The pale horse that causes the deaths of 1/3 of mankind.

Zechariah 6:1-8 also describes these 4 horses and verse 7 says how they were released in ancient times, so these seals have been opened already and the world suffers for it.

Fifth seal - The saints: all those who have been slaughtered for their faith in God. They await the final completion of their numbers. This seal is also opened, as it is for all those people killed for their faith, from Abel until Jesus Returns. Matthew 23:35, Isaiah 57:1-2

Sixth seal - This must be the next prophesied event, Rev. 6:17 ‘For the great Day of the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb has come and who can stand?’ It will be a worldwide judgement of fire, by the means of a massive CME sun strike, that will particularly affect the Middle East, destroying those nations and entities that attack the State of Israel, as described in Psalms 83. Isaiah 34:8

Seventh seal – Rev. 8:1, a period of silence in heaven and a time lapse of about 15 to 25 years on earth. We are told that one day to the Lord, is as 1000 years. So, ½ hour = 1/48th of a day. 1/48th of 1000 years = about 20 years. Which is about right for all that is prophesied to happen before Jesus Returns.
At the mid point of the last 7 years, the Trumpet and Bowl punishments of the Great Tribulation occur, during the final 3½ years of this age. Revelation chapters 8 & 9
 
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Tim Ray

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Tim, thanks for answering.
I have attended several SDA conferences on Revelation. It seems the church holds that frequently in my city.

What have I learned? I disagree with 99% or so of SDA teaching on Revelation. For example:
Seal 1 is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL
Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. We can guess that 4th would be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began. God would allow Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts.

Was Satan successful? No! The gospel is almost anywhere today. Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age.
Seal 6 is the start of the Day of the Lord.
Seal 7 is the start of the 70th week.

As you can see, we are miles apart. But, thanks for posting.
 
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Tim Ray

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Tim, thanks for answering.
I have attended several SDA conferences on Revelation. It seems the church holds that frequently in my city.

What have I learned? I disagree with 99% or so of SDA teaching on Revelation. For example:
Seal 1 is to represent the CHURCH sent out with the GOSPEL
Seals 2 through 4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel. God limited their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. We can guess that 4th would be centered on Jerusalem where the gospel began. God would allow Satan to use wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts.

Was Satan successful? No! The gospel is almost anywhere today. Seal 5 is the martyrs of the church age.
Seal 6 is the start of the Day of the Lord.
Seal 7 is the start of the 70th week.

As you can see, we are miles apart. But, thanks for posting.

iamlamad, I in no way was I trying to deceive you when I said in my opening statement that what I posted in my response to you, Is not what Adventist teach on the seals. I agree with you we/Adventist do not understand the seals.
So if you think what I posted is our teachings, you are seriously mistaken. Again I encourage you to consider my previous post.

And remember this, none of us can expand our knowledge, unless we expose ourselves to something new.
 
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Tim Ray

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Tim Ray, I read your post. Well written but quite scripturally incorrect.
You don't take notice of what Revelation 6 actually does say.

iamlamad, Yes; there will be two Days of the Lord. The first will be His great and terrible Day of fiery wrath, a literal day when He will destroy His enemies. Best described in Isaiah 66:15-17, Malachi 4:1, and 2 Peter 3:1-7 tells us how most people will scoff at this forthcoming worldwide disaster.

The judgements in Revelation, a chronological sequence of events:

Revelation 6:1-17 The first seal - The white horse that conquers nations.
Second seal - The red horse that takes away the peace on earth.
Third seal - The black horse that controls the worlds food supply.
Fourth seal - The pale horse that causes the deaths of 1/3 of mankind.

Zechariah 6:1-8 also describes these 4 horses and verse 7 says how they were released in ancient times, so these seals have been opened already and the world suffers for it.

Fifth seal - The saints: all those who have been slaughtered for their faith in God. They await the final completion of their numbers. This seal is also opened, as it is for all those people killed for their faith, from Abel until Jesus Returns. Matthew 23:35, Isaiah 57:1-2

Sixth seal - This must be the next prophesied event, Rev. 6:17 ‘For the great Day of the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb has come and who can stand?’ It will be a worldwide judgement of fire, by the means of a massive CME sun strike, that will particularly affect the Middle East, destroying those nations and entities that attack the State of Israel, as described in Psalms 83. Isaiah 34:8

Seventh seal – Rev. 8:1, a period of silence in heaven and a time lapse of about 15 to 25 years on earth. We are told that one day to the Lord, is as 1000 years. So, ½ hour = 1/48th of a day. 1/48th of 1000 years = about 20 years. Which is about right for all that is prophesied to happen before Jesus Returns.
At the mid point of the last 7 years, the Trumpet and Bowl punishments of the Great Tribulation occur, during the final 3½ years of this age. Revelation chapters 8 & 9

Keras, Appreciate your response. I note you are a writer of prophecy studies. Am I correct to assume that means you write out prophecy studies, for individuals wanting to better understand these studies? If my assumption is correct might I enquire what exactly are the hermenutics you think best, which brings out the correct meaning of apocalyptic prophecy?
 
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iamlamad

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iamlamad, I in no way was I trying to deceive you when I said in my opening statement that what I posted in my response to you, Is not what Adventist teach on the seals. I agree with you we/Adventist do not understand the seals.
So if you think what I posted is our teachings, you are seriously mistaken. Again I encourage you to consider my previous post.

And remember this, none of us can expand our knowledge, unless we expose ourselves to something new.
I in no way took what you wrote as deception of any kind. Don't worry about that.

Tim, I was only trying to be nice: I DID read your post. But I believed none of it. In my mind it was all myth. The book with 7 seals is not the book of life. It is probably the title dead or lease document to planet earth. We know this because when the book is opened, Satan is kicked from his position as god of this word and the world is given to Jesus Christ. WHY THEN? I ask God that repeatedly. I believe Adam was given a 6000 year lease. Satan is disposed because the lease he usurped ENDED! Suddenly he had no more legal hold to anything on the earth, so was kicked down
 
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Tim Ray

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I in no way took what you wrote as deception of any kind. Don't worry about that.

Tim, I was only trying to be nice: I DID read your post. But I believed none of it. In my mind it was all myth. The book with 7 seals is not the book of life. It is probably the title dead or lease document to planet earth. We know this because when the book is opened, Satan is kicked from his position as god of this word and the world is given to Jesus Christ. WHY THEN? I ask God that repeatedly. I believe Adam was given a 6000 year lease. Satan is disposed because the lease he usurped ENDED! Suddenly he had no more legal hold to anything on the earth, so was kicked down

Iamlamad, I want to thank you for being nice.

NONETHELESS, I believe prophecy confirms the book that the Father gives to Jesus, having the seven seals is the book of life because it’s the only book Jesus receives in Revelations prophecies, and from that point on, John refers to it as, “the Lambs book of life”, since the Father gave it to the Lamb/Jesus. (Rev.13:8, 21:27).

Again according to prophecy, which is the more sure word (2 Pe. 1:19) the seventh seal is not broken until the end of the 1000 years. (Rev. 20:11,12)

I understand that Adam was given the title of the prince of this earth at his creation, but Satan usurped that title when he lead Adam into sin. Satan then had access to heaven since he was prince of this earth. ( Job 1:6-11; Jude 9) Later he was cast out of Heaven, and lost his title as prince of this earth, when Christ was given the title by the Father on the very day that Christ arose from the grave. (Rev. 12:7-10) please consider the following commentary.

{7} There was a war in Heaven. Michael (the name which Jesus used before coming to Earth as a human) and His angels fought against the great red dragon and his angels.

(7) A few hours before His death, Jesus made the following statement: “ ‘Father, glorify your name!’ Then a voice came from Heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.’ The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, ‘This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.’ Jesus knew that Lucifer would be permanently cast out of Heaven if the Father approved His sacrifice. When Jesus said, “Now is the time for judgment on this world. . . ,” He meant that the time had come for the Father to determine who should be the rightful prince of this world. When Jesus said, “now the prince of this world will be driven out,” Jesus predicted the war described in verse 7. This war occurred on Resurrection Sunday.

Rev. 12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


{8} But the devil and his demons were thrown out of Heaven, never to enter again. God did not destroy the devil and his angels on Resurrection Sunday because His purpose for them was not finished. God permitted open warfare in Heaven between Lucifer and his angels and Jesus and his angels for a significant reason. The Father wanted to make sure that among the holy angels, no sympathy for the once adored and highly exalted Lucifer remained. This war was not a test of faith as the first war had been. This war produced a revelation. The Father allowed the battle to last long enough to see where each angel firmly stood. After 4,000 years, there was no change. Those loyal to Lucifer defended their evil leader and remained unchanged. Those loyal to Michael also remained unchanged.

Rev. 12:9

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

{9} Once the loyalty of the angels was confirmed, the devil and his angels were once again thrown out of Heaven, at the speed of lightning. The Father threw the devil and his angels into an earthly abyss and confined them there.Ever since Resurrection Sunday, the devil and his angels have been bound to this planet, limited to the dimensions of the spirit realm (represented to John as the abyss). Originally, the great red dragon and his angels were hurled out of Heaven because of defiance. Four thousand years later, their defiance remains unchanged. The great red dragon is that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled into the Earth, and his angels with him.*

Rev. 12:10

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

{10} After the war in Heaven ended, I heard a loud voice in Heaven say: “Now that salvation has been paid in full and the devil has been defeated, the gospel of Jesus Christ and His coming kingdom will advance with clarity and power throughout the Earth. Lucifer’s position as “the prince of Earth” has been honorably overthrown by the perfect life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The accuser of our human brothers, who accuses them before God day and night, has been hurled down and his endless arguments and accusations in Heaven against repentant sinners have been silenced.

As demonstrated I have built my faith on the more sure word, prophecy.

Iamlamad, What scriptures support your statements that:

1) The book sealed with seven seals is a lease document to planet earth?

2) When was it opened, and Satan was no longer the God of this earth?
 
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iamlamad

Lamad
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Iamlamad, I want to thank you for being nice.

NONETHELESS, I believe prophecy confirms the book that the Father gives to Jesus, having the seven seals is the book of life because it’s the only book Jesus receives in Revelations prophecies, and from that point on, John refers to it as, “the Lambs book of life”, since the Father gave it to the Lamb/Jesus. (Rev.13:8, 21:27).

Again according to prophecy, which is the more sure word (2 Pe. 1:19) the seventh seal is not broken until the end of the 1000 years. (Rev. 20:11,12)

I understand that Adam was given the title of the prince of this earth at his creation, but Satan usurped that title when he lead Adam into sin. Satan then had access to heaven since he was prince of this earth. ( Job 1:6-11; Jude 9) Later he was cast out of Heaven, and lost his title as prince of this earth, when Christ was given the title by the Father on the very day that Christ arose from the grave. (Rev. 12:7-10) please consider the following commentary.

{7} There was a war in Heaven. Michael (the name which Jesus used before coming to Earth as a human) and His angels fought against the great red dragon and his angels.

(7) A few hours before His death, Jesus made the following statement: “ ‘Father, glorify your name!’ Then a voice came from Heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.’ The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, ‘This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.’ Jesus knew that Lucifer would be permanently cast out of Heaven if the Father approved His sacrifice. When Jesus said, “Now is the time for judgment on this world. . . ,” He meant that the time had come for the Father to determine who should be the rightful prince of this world. When Jesus said, “now the prince of this world will be driven out,” Jesus predicted the war described in verse 7. This war occurred on Resurrection Sunday.

Rev. 12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.


{8} But the devil and his demons were thrown out of Heaven, never to enter again. God did not destroy the devil and his angels on Resurrection Sunday because His purpose for them was not finished. God permitted open warfare in Heaven between Lucifer and his angels and Jesus and his angels for a significant reason. The Father wanted to make sure that among the holy angels, no sympathy for the once adored and highly exalted Lucifer remained. This war was not a test of faith as the first war had been. This war produced a revelation. The Father allowed the battle to last long enough to see where each angel firmly stood. After 4,000 years, there was no change. Those loyal to Lucifer defended their evil leader and remained unchanged. Those loyal to Michael also remained unchanged.

Rev. 12:9

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

{9} Once the loyalty of the angels was confirmed, the devil and his angels were once again thrown out of Heaven, at the speed of lightning. The Father threw the devil and his angels into an earthly abyss and confined them there.Ever since Resurrection Sunday, the devil and his angels have been bound to this planet, limited to the dimensions of the spirit realm (represented to John as the abyss). Originally, the great red dragon and his angels were hurled out of Heaven because of defiance. Four thousand years later, their defiance remains unchanged. The great red dragon is that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled into the Earth, and his angels with him.*

Rev. 12:10

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

{10} After the war in Heaven ended, I heard a loud voice in Heaven say: “Now that salvation has been paid in full and the devil has been defeated, the gospel of Jesus Christ and His coming kingdom will advance with clarity and power throughout the Earth. Lucifer’s position as “the prince of Earth” has been honorably overthrown by the perfect life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The accuser of our human brothers, who accuses them before God day and night, has been hurled down and his endless arguments and accusations in Heaven against repentant sinners have been silenced.

As demonstrated I have built my faith on the more sure word, prophecy.

Iamlamad, What scriptures support your statements that:

1) The book sealed with seven seals is a lease document to planet earth?

2) When was it opened, and Satan was no longer the God of this earth?
The "book of life" is also mentioned other places in the bible, and different places in the book of Revelation. Since it is called by name by John elsewhere in his book, it seems silly that he would call it something else in another passage. It is what it says it is: the book of life. the moment a human is conceived, their names are written in the book. And those names will stay written until they reach the age where God will hold them accountible - and then if they sin, their names are blotted out. If they get born again, their names will be added back. It is, indeed, the book of life.

On the other hand, the other book is what will get Satan kicked off his throne. It is what gets the kingdoms of the world transferred from Satan to Jesus Christ. That is the good part of the book: Satan loses, Jesus gains. But before any trumpet judgment - all the seals must be opened. I personally think at least some of the seals were DEMANDED by Satan as the god of this world.

Did you know that the first seal was opened around 32 AD?

Iamlamad, What scriptures support your statements that:
1) The book sealed with seven seals is a lease document to planet earth?
2) When was it opened, and Satan was no longer the God of this earth?
Easy, revelation chapter 11 & 12. That is where Satan loses and Jesus gains. Chapter 12 is the war in heaven where Satan is cast down.
I think has something to do with Adam's lease because that is how Satan became "the god of this world:" He usurped Adam's lease. His lease ending is also what seems the most logical reason why the kingdoms are given back to Jesus Christ. Not to mention, we are VERY CLOSE to the year 6000.

Michael (the name which Jesus used before coming to Earth as a human) Sorry, no scripture for that. Michael has been the arc Angel since earth was created. Jesus was known as the "Redeemer" in Isaiah 44. He was known as Yehoshua , The bright and Morning Star, the Prince of Peace, and many other names: but NEVER "Michael".

T
here was a war in Heaven. Michael (the name which Jesus used before coming to Earth as a human) and His angels fought against the great red dragon and his angels. You are, of course, referring to the war in heaven as recorded in Rev. 12. What you are missing is that that war is FUTURE: Michael, the Arc Angel will go after Satan at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. You will please note, the 7th trumpet is also when the earth rulership transfer takes place.

This war occurred on Resurrection Sunday. No, sorry, it is still future. Jesus has NOT YET opened the 6th and 7th seal so that the book can be opened. When Jesus said "now," He understood that FINALLY someone would be found worthy to take the book and open the seals so that Satan could finally be disposes from his position.

Now is the time for judgment on this world Did judgment happen then? We see judgment happening all through Revelation that is still future to us today. What happened then was that Judgement could LEGALLY begin. God has chosen to hold off judgment until the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. We know the judgment seat of Christ will not be until after the rapture.

Heaven...Keep in mind, when we read "heaven" it can be the air we breath, or the atmosphere or the 3rd heaven where Jesus lives. This war will kick the devil out of the atmosphere - remember spirits in high places? You might say, Satan and all demons will lose their wings. But this is FUTURE, not until the midpoint of the future 70th week. If you read the first 5 verses of Rev. 12, it is about the birth of Christ and how the devil tried to kill him as a child. But Jesus also included the scripture about when Satan was kicked out of the 3rd heaven and took 1/3 of the angels with him.

. Lucifer’s position as “the prince of Earth”
No, Paul called Him the god of this world around 50 AD or so. The truth is, he still IS the price of the power of the air, and the god of this world, and will remain so until the 7th trumpet is sounded sometime in our future.

As demonstrated I have built my faith on the more sure word, prophecy. Well, you built your faith on YOUR TAKE of these scriptures. I will agree to that. But I read all these scriptures differently than you do.

Note: did you ever notice that in Rev. 4, when John IN THE VISION saw the throne room, that Jesus was MISSING? In 95 AD we would expect John to have seen him at the right hand of the Father - but John saw only the Father on the throne - AS If Jesus was missing.

Did you notice in chapter 4 that the Holy Spirit was still there, when in 95 AD we would expect Him to be send down?

Did you notice that a search was made for one worthy to take the book and open the seals - and that search ended in failure? John wrote "no man was found" and wept much

Then later Jesus WAS found worthy: so what changed?

When John first looked into the throne room, it was before Christ rose from the dead: He was not seen at the right hand of the Father because he was still on earth.

Then Jesus rose from the dead and suddenly BECAME worthy to take the book, because He had overcome death to become the redeemer.

Next, John saw Jesus ascend into the throne room and send the Holy Spirit down: circa 32 or 33 AD. Jesus immediately got the book and began opening the seals: again 32 AD.

So seal one was opened as soon as Jesus ascended.
 
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keras

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Keras, Appreciate your response. I note you are a writer of prophecy studies. Am I correct to assume that means you write out prophecy studies, for individuals wanting to better understand these studies? If my assumption is correct might I enquire what exactly are the hermenutics you think best, which brings out the correct meaning of apocalyptic prophecy?
What I use to help explain the Prophetic Word, is other scriptures. We also have the benefit of hindsight and of modern knowledge.
I see all the Bible prophesies as a coherent whole picture of God's Plan for mankind.
All my short articles are free at: logostelos.info
So seal one was opened as soon as Jesus ascended.
Jesus opened the first five Seals then.
Proved by how we have experienced the wars, famines and plagues, each of which have killed millions. Then the Fifth Seal is plainly open, all the Christian martyrs since Stephen have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven.

We await the soon to happen Sixth Seal, a worldwide disaster that will set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
 
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iamlamad

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What I use to help explain the Prophetic Word, is other scriptures. We also have the benefit of hindsight and of modern knowledge.
I see all the Bible prophesies as a coherent whole picture of God's Plan for mankind.
All my short articles are free at: logostelos.info

Jesus opened the first five Seals then.
Proved by how we have experienced the wars, famines and plagues, each of which have killed millions. Then the Fifth Seal is plainly open, all the Christian martyrs since Stephen have their souls kept under the Altar in heaven.

We await the soon to happen Sixth Seal, a worldwide disaster that will set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
Good job here, Keras! I agree completely.
 
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Tim Ray

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Good job here, Keras! I agree completely.

Keras and lamad, I want to thank you both for your dialog. I'm getting to understand your prospectives better as we progress.
It's obvious from our previous posts our understanding on apocalyptic prophecy differ. The reason I think, is we are not using the valid rules of interpretation that God built into His prophecies.
It is my belief that everything God has created, which includes apocalyptic prophecy operates by way of His natural laws. These laws over time are discovered by individuals who spend much time in study or research in various fields of learning as the Holy spirit makes then know according to Gods timing.

Lamad, you seem to agree with Keras's method of understand the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, which is fine. However, I believe these rules are too general and will allow a lot of personal bias to override what that prophecies are intended to convey.

I hope we all can be in agreement on this at least, is that our individual pride in support of what we believe, should not take pressidence over the word of God, should we be seekers of truth.

So in this post I wish to expose you to what I think are God's four natural laws recently discovered within prophecy that have already reached their fulfillment.

The Intended Meaning of Apocalyptic Prophecy is Determined by Valid Rules of Interpretation.

By Larry Wilson
When it comes to interpreting Bible prophecy, it is true that one expert says one thing and another expert says something else. Prophetic expositors arrive at different conclusions because there are as many different methods of interpretation as there are people. Methods of interpretation is a phrase that defines a controlling set of ideas or views (baggage) that a person has in mind before he or she actually begins to interpret prophecy. Doctrinal beliefs, presuppositions, assumptions, concepts about the role and authority of Scripture, the use of external authority, and church traditions produce controlling ideas. Notice how methods of interpretation work: A Catholic scholar will interpret Bible prophecy so that his Catholic doctrines and his prophetic conclusions harmoniously align, and a Baptist scholar will do the same thing. In other words, two scholars can study the same passages of prophecy and arrive at widely different conclusions because they approach Bible prophecy with some kind of baggage. This baggage is called “methods of interpretation,” “presuppositions,” “rules of interpretation,” or hermeneutics. Perhaps the following parable will illustrate the controlling power that comes with this baggage.

The Parable of the Math Teacher
Once upon a time, there was a math teacher who surrendered his life to the Lord. Later, he felt called to serve as a missionary in a foreign land. Eventually, he was invited to teach math in a parochial college in a distant city called Overspent.

During the first week of college algebra, the teacher discovered a puzzling situation. His students could not solve a single math problem correctly. In fact, all of the students gave identical answers for each math problem that he gave them. He asked the students to explain how they entered college – given the fact they did not have the skills necessary to resolve basic math problems. The students said their high school teachers did not require them to work through math problems because highly educated and spiritually guided math teachers long ago had solved all math problems and all that they needed to do was to memorize the answers.The teacher was shocked.

The next day, the teacher set out to remedy the problem. He put this equation on the board: 3c + 5 = 20. He asked the students to solve for c. All of the students reported that c was equal to 3.
When the teacher asked how they arrived at 3, they said they had always been taught that c always equals 3. The teacher could not believe his ears. He demonstrated on the chalkboard how c was solved, and he proved that c = 5 using simple rules of substitution. The students became angry. They were insulted by this “outsider” because he showed no respect for their high school elders and their traditional way of solving math problems.

The students told the teacher that if he had written 3e + 5 = 20, their answer would have been 5 because “e” always equals 5. They had been taught that “a” always = 1, “b” always = 2, “c” always = 3, etc. The teacher responded by saying that when it comes to math, a variable’s name does not determine its value. It does not matter whether a variable is called “e” or “c” or “x.” When it comes to resolving a math problem, the process must conform to valid rules of substitution or the answer will be erroneous. The students could not bear to hear any more of this heresy, so they rose up as one man and stormed out of class. The math teacher was stunned. He wondered how he could help these students. They knew nothing about working through math problems or that math is controlled by four self-evident rules of addition, multiplication, subtraction, and division. He thought to himself, “They think they have been properly informed, and they are afraid to consider answers that are contrary to traditions of their elders.” Perplexed by their hostility, he wondered what he could do to get the students to put aside their traditions so that they could consider the truth.

The next day, the teacher plainly said to his students: “Please hear me out. You have been misled. Your knowledge of math is worthless. Memorizing the answer to a math problems is not to be confused with properly working through a legitimate process to find the correct answer. If you follow the four rules that govern basic math, you can test and validate your answers in many different ways. More importantly, others who know nothing about you or your elders can also test the validity of your answers because accurate math solutions are not a matter of opinion, they are a matter of fact. Accurate solutions are true because they can be proven true by self- evident rules!” Immediately, the students became hostile. The teacher had condemned their traditions and their beloved elders. He had insulted them and their exalted high school teachers. They threw desks and chairs at the teacher and in a riotous frenzy, they beat him to death.

When the bell rang, the students went away happy. They were relieved that the offending teacher had been silenced. They petitioned the dean of the college to provide a math teacher who would teach according to their elders and their wish was granted. Years later, many of these students graduated from Overspent City College and some of them went to work for the elders of the city. Later, the city faced an enormous financial crisis and all of the elders and college graduates could not stop the city from going bankrupt. When the auditors showed up, no one in the accounting department could figure out what went wrong – literally.

There are four lessons to be learned from this silly parable. First, for most of us, traditions are more important than truth. Traditions are familiar and predictable, whereas the truth can be disruptive, humiliating and socially divisive. Second, it is impossible to be “a defender of the faith” and at the same time, be “a seeker of truth.” These two mindsets stand in opposition to each other. Third, if someone exposes the folly of a tradition, he or she will surely suffer for it. Last, if we reject or ignore the truth, failure cannot be avoided. We may arrogantly defend our ignorance, but ignorance will not save us from the results that truth demands.

Can the Bible Tell Us Things We Don’t Want to Believe?

Experts widely disagree on Bible prophecy because knowingly or unknowingly, every expert uses a set of rules to support his prophetic conclusions. Of course, every expert believes his conclusions are true because they are in harmony with his baggage (or rules). The problem, of course, is that false rules cannot produce valid conclusions. A rule is a statement that is always true. For example, 2 + 2 equals 4 because the law of subtraction says that 4 - 2 = 2. When it comes to Bible prophecy, a rule cannot have an exception, for if it does, no one has the authority to speak for God and tell humanity when the rule should be applied or ignored. To illustrate this matter, consider the following rule: “A day in Bible prophecy always equals a year.” If we accept this rule to be true (that is, having no exception), the 1,000 years in Revelation 20 have to be translated as 365,242 years. (365.242 days per solar year x 1,000 years = 365,242 years)

For reasons that will be presented later, the day/year rule described above is faulty. There are time periods in Daniel and Revelation where a day should be translated as a year (for example, the seventy weeks of Daniel 9 are translated into 490 years), but there are other time periods where translation is not permitted. For example, the 42 months in Revelation 13 and the 1,335 days in Daniel 12 are literal time periods. Because some time periods in prophecy are translated a day for a year and others are not, a valid rule is required to tell us when time periods should be translated and when they should not. Here’s the critical point: If we use a rule that requires us to translate every time period in Daniel and Revelation into a day for a year, the Bible will be put in a position of internal conflict. The Bible will not be able to speak for itself because the chronological order given in Daniel and Revelation will be broken!

Today, millions of Christians have embraced prophetic concepts that have no truth in them. A prophetic concept can appear to be true – if flaws rules, that is, certain presuppositions are used. For example, many Christians believe that the role of modern-day Israel is prophetically important during the end of the world. They also believe that a pre-tribulation rapture is imminent, but the underlying presuppositions that hold these ideas together are faulty. The New Covenant teaches that the Israel of God is not biological! Everyone in Christ is now the heir of Abraham. (Galatians 3:28,29)

Logic and reasonableness do not alone ensure validity. For thousands of years, people believed Earth stood still and the Sun traveled in its orbit around Earth. In fact, everyone could plainly see that the Sun traveled across the sky! Then, along came an obscure mathematician who said the Sun stood still. Even worse, Copernicus proved that the Sun was not moving and he was severely punished for speaking out against the traditions of the elders and telling the truth. History demonstrates that advocates of truth are frequently punished. (Wasn’t Jesus crucified for speaking the truth?) Nevertheless, for the honest in heart, great joy occurs when greater truth is found! An ongoing discovery of greater truth is the process that enables the Bible to tell us things that we do not want to believe, but unfortunately, many people do not want or have a working knowledge of Scripture. Most people are content with their traditions (the familiar) and they are quick to discredit the truth (which is divisive). Perhaps the greatest problem for human beings is that we can’t know what our response to truth will be until greater truth arrives and it challenges our sacred traditions.

Faulty Interpretations until Daniel Is Unsealed
The book of Daniel contains 533 sentences. It was written about twenty-six centuries ago, but unlike the other sixty-five books in the Bible, the book of Daniel was sealed up “until the time of the end.” The angel, Gabriel, said to Daniel, “. . .Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.” (Daniel 12:9) What does “closed up and sealed until the time of the end” mean? It means that God hid something in the book of Daniel that would remain “top secret” until the time of the end arrived. I am convinced that the book of Daniel has been unsealed and the time of the end has arrived for the following reasons:

The secret information that God encoded into the book of Daniel is something like the “Rosetta Stone.” The Rosetta Stone was accidently discovered and unearthed in 1799 near Rosetta, Egypt, by French soldiers. The marvelous thing about this buried rock is that it bears a message written during the second century B.C. in two forms of Egyptian script – demotic and hieroglyphics. When archeologists examined the rock, they were thrilled because the inscriptions would help solve a very perplexing mystery. Prior to 1799, archeologists could not read the clay tablets bearing Egyptian hieroglyphics because no one could decipher the language. When the Rosetta Stone was discovered and translated, the demotic inscriptions on the stone enabled Thomas Young (1773-1829) and J.F. Champollion (1790-1832) to decipher the hieroglyphics of the ancient Egyptians.

In a similar way, God buried a set of four self-evident rules in the book of Daniel 2,600 years ago. By God’s grace, I accidently stumbled into this buried treasure. (Of course, the passage of time will prove or disprove the validity of my claim.) Four rules of interpretation have shattered centuries of prophetic exposition and tradition, because by definition, all prophetic interpretations are faulty and incomplete until the book of Daniel is unsealed. These four rules cover chronology, fulfillment, language and God’s use of time. God put these things in the book of Daniel to dethrone our traditions because greater truth is God’s gift to the honest in heart. Notice how this works: God separates people who hold to traditions from people who love truth by sending greater truth on the Earth. When greater truth comes along, the honest in heart rejoice to see it while those defending the traditions of the elders will rise up and punish those who embrace it. Yes, the parable of the math teacher is silly, but the moral of the story is painfully true.

(continued)
 
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Tim Ray

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Three Levels of Information
As a person might expect, God buried His secrets in the book of Daniel very well. However, when God wants something known, He enables ordinary men and women to discover extraordinary things He has hidden. Through the ages we find this discovery process at work: On or about the time of fulfillment, elements of prophecy are understood. For example, when it came time to understand the timing of Christ’s birth, the wise men from the East figured it out. (Matthew 2:2) The apostle Paul also noticed this phenomenon. Consider his words: “Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 3:2-6)

What did God hide in the book of Daniel? The answer to this question requires a little explanation. The book of Daniel offers three levels of knowledge. They are:
  1. Dramatic stories of faith

  2. Visions revealing God’s plans

  3. Apocalyptic architecture
    The first (and easiest) level of knowledge in Daniel contains dramatic stories of faith in God. These stories of faith and loyalty to God were recorded for the benefit of all generations. However, Earth’s final generation will benefit the most from these stories of courage since the fiery trials in the first chapters of the book of Daniel are mini-parallels of coming events. For example, in Daniel 3 we read about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego facing the mandatory worship of a golden image which the king of Babylon constructed. In Revelation 13:15, we read about the inhabitants of the world facing the mandatory worship of an image which the king of modern Babylon will construct. These parallels and their outcomes were put in the book of Daniel for our encouragement. (Note: I hope you will read my book, Bible Stories with End Time Parallels, which reveals end-time issues through the lives of certain Bible characters.)

  4. The second (and more difficult) level of knowledge in Daniel concerns the meaning of the visions in the book of Daniel. The visions God gave to King Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel faithfully predict the passage of time and the fulfillment of all that God predestined to occur. Even more, these visions reveal what God planned to do long before He told Nebuchadnezzar or Daniel of His plans. Because students of prophecy have understood something of Daniel’s visions for hundreds of years, we cannot say the visions were entirely sealed up until “the time of the end.” However, something in the book of Daniel was sealed up, and that something uniquely applies to the people who live at the end of the world. What is it?
The Book Unsealed
The third (and deepest) level of knowledge found in Daniel is the architecture of apocalyptic prophecy. The prophecies in Daniel conform to a structure or pattern that controls their meaning. The exciting thing about this structure is that it is also present in Revelation! In other words, when you understand how the architecture of Daniel behaves, you will understand the architecture in Revelation because it is the same architecture! This architecture produces four rules (methods of interpretation) that govern the interpretation of Daniel and Revelation. These four rules are like combinations to a safe. When the four rules are used to interpret prophecies in Daniel and Revelation, a marvelous result occurs. The prophecies make perfect sense just as they read! This point is extremely important. Portions of Daniel and Revelation have been a mystery for 2,600 years and then suddenly, the words make sense just as they read! What causes this change to occur? When the architecture of Daniel is understood, the contents of Daniel and Revelation can be understood.

When the four rules found in Daniel are applied to each line of prophecy in Daniel and Revelation, a comprehensive story unfolds that is completely harmonious with everything the Bible has to say about the ways of God. Furthermore, all of the details God gave in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation are in perfect harmony and synchrony with each other. The four rules force all of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation into a chronological matrix of layers that are orderly in nature. To visualize this matrix, think of the seventeen prophecies in Daniel and Revelation as a wedding cake of seventeen layers! The larger pieces are at the bottom of the stack and the smaller pieces are on top. The “toothpicks” that hold the seventeen layers together are events that unite and align the seventeen layers in Daniel and Revelation into one grand story. The toothpicks are necessary because two or more layers can describe the same prophetic event! Because the same event is described in two different ways – in two different layers – a precise alignment of the prophecies is not only possible, but essential to understanding the big picture.

Private Interpretation
Any interpretation of prophecy which does not conform to a stated set of valid rules is classified as a “private interpretation.” The word “private” in this context does not mean obscure. Millions of people can believe and endorse a private interpretation (and they do). A private interpretation is an interpretation which does not have an external means of validation. In other words, a private interpretation cannot be tested and validated by an impartial jury given a set of stated rules. This emphasizes our need to understand the apocalyptic architecture in Daniel. There is one architecture in Daniel and Revelation and there is one truth. Looking for that truth is the joy of every Bible student. Even if we have the right rules of interpretation, the likelihood of reaching the intended meaning is not guaranteed, but it is greatly improved! (It is one thing to know the laws of algebra, but it is another to correctly solve the problem.)

The Value and Importance of Rules
A beginning student of Bible prophecy may not appreciate the necessity of a valid set of rules of interpretation (or hermeneutics) at first, so hopefully the following parallel will help you understand why rules of interpretation are essential to prophetic study: Scientists achieve advances in the study of genetics at the cellular level. By studying various cells within the human body, they have been able to determine how certain cells operate. In more and more cases, they have been able to predict the behavior of cells under controlled circumstances, because they now know some of the secrets of proteins and the DNA structure. Scientists are constantly testing for “consistent behavior” within their studies of cells. Once the behavior of a specific cell is understood, cell behavior can be changed or influenced through drugs compounded to produce the desired results. Pharmaceutical companies spend billions of dollars on this type of painstaking research because they know that a genuine cure for most diseases must occur at the cellular level.

Consistent Behavior
In a similar way, the architecture in Daniel is distilled through a careful study of Daniel’s prophecies. Because the visions within Daniel behave in a predictable way, this behavior allows us to decipher things about the meaning of prophecy that we could not otherwise know. For example, here is one consistent behavior that occurs throughout the book of Daniel: Each of Daniel’s prophecies have a beginning point and an ending point in time, and the events in each prophecy occur in the order in which they are given. This behavior may sound simple, but it has profound ramifications. Consider the results of violating this self-evident rule. If the events given within each prophecy of Daniel do not occur in their given order, how, then, will the order of events determined? Who but God has the authority to tell mankind the order of events?

This question brings up an even greater question: Does the Bible speak for itself or must it have an interpreter? After many years of study on this question, I conclude the Bible speaks for itself and the Bible is its own interpreter. I do not accept the idea that external authority is permitted or necessary. The constant and predictable architecture within Daniel’s prophecies is the basis for Rule One. This rule is: Each apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning point and an ending point in time and the events within each prophecy must occur in the order they are given. Keep in mind, I am not inventing this rule. Instead, I am expressing a consistent behavior that recurs without exception throughout the book of Daniel (as well as Revelation).

When the fulfilled elements of each prophecy in Daniel are aligned with widely published historical records, the validity of Rule One proves true every time! The prophecies in the book of Daniel cover more than 2,600 years so far. This great span of time contains everything necessary to validate the four rules that spring from the architecture of Daniel. As a bonus, the book of Daniel provides a historical foundation for certain prophecies in Revelation. Because some of the prophecies in Revelation run parallel to the prophecies in Daniel, we can link them together and establish the timing of events mentioned in both books. So, the discovery of Daniel’s architecture, like the discovery of the Rosetta Stone, enables the Bible student to resolve many prophetic mysteries that would otherwise be impossible to solve.

Rule One
I have arbitrarily made the rule governing chronology “Rule One” because determining the order of events within the seventeen prophecies is “Job One!” Try this: Draw a time line and as you put all of the events specified in Daniel and Revelation on the time line, you will be confronted with the question of chronological order. This is why the first rule concerns chronology. This rule is stated as follows: “Each apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning point in time, an ending point in time and the events within each prophecy occur in the order given.”

This rule is deceptively simple and it demolishes two thousand years of prophetic speculation and tradition. Please give the following sentence a full five seconds of serious thought because the ramifications are huge: God has declared the order of events within each apocalyptic prophecy – if this is not the case, there is no way to determine chronological order within apocalyptic prophecy. If God has declared the order of events within each apocalyptic prophecy, the Bible will say the same thing to everyone – just as it reads. If God has declared chronological order, there is prophetic certainty instead of endless chaos and cancelling views. On the other hand, if God has not declared chronological order, everyone is permitted to define and create a prophetic order that accommodates his or her religious baggage. In fact, we see this process throughout Christianity today and the result is that there is no general agreement among Christians on the next prophetic event!

To resolve this problem, some church groups turn to external authority. This authority can be a founding father, a prophet or even church tradition. There is a simple test that determines if a person uses external authority. Present the Word of God and notice the result. Jesus did this and He was considered a blasphemer because the Jews exalted religious traditions above the Word of God! (See Mark 7:8,9.)

Bottom line: If God has not declared chronological order in the books of Daniel and Revelation, it becomes impossible to factually determine the next prophetic event. On the other hand, if there is chronological order we can determine what comes next. We have had twenty six centuries of prophetic sequence since the book of Daniel was written. Looking backwards from our day, the book of Daniel proves there is chronological order and the result is truly astonishing. This is good news because the final generation can know and understand a number of prophetic truths that previous generations could not discover! Remember, God’s greatest gift to the honest in heart is greater truth. During the Great Tribulation God will separate the honest in heart (His sheep) from those who worship tradition (the goats) through greater truth!

Avoiding Internal Conflict
On page 3 it was said, “There are time periods in Daniel and Revelation where a day should be translated as a year (for example, the seventy weeks of Daniel 9 are translated into 490 years), but there are other time periods where translation is not permitted. For example, the 42 months in Revelation 13 and the 1,335 days in Daniel 12 are literal time periods. Because some time periods in prophecy are translated a day for a year and others are not, a valid rule is required to tell us when time periods should be translated and when they should not.”

If we use a faulty rule that requires every time period in Daniel and Revelation to be literal or a faulty rule that requires every time period to be translated as a day for a year, the Bible will be put in a position of internal conflict (inconsistency). In other words, the Bible will not be able to speak for itself because Rule One, which governs chronological order, will be found in conflict with Rule Four which governs timing!

A valid rule of interpretation cannot have an exception, for if it did, who would tell the world when the exception is permitted? Moreover, a valid rule will not force the Bible into a position of internal conflict. This point is emphasized because valid rules and valid conclusions are always in perfect harmony with God’s Word!

The Four Rules
When valid rules of interpretation are used, the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation will make sense just as they read, because the Bible is its own interpreter. On the other hand, a private interpretation requires an interpreter. An interpreter stands between the Bible and you whereas, valid rules produce the same meaning for everyone without a go-between. Consider the difference. A private interpretation prevents people from independently arriving at the same conclusion without the coaxing of an interpreter, but a valid set of rules enables people to arrive at a similar conclusion without knowing one another. Many Christians believe whatever their leaders say about prophecy without actually studying the conclusions for themselves. Lay people usually “go along” because their church endorses a particular view. Because the average Christian does not study prophecy and the subject of Bible prophecy is complex and complicated, it is easier to follow the leader. Of course, the mysteries of Bible prophecy will vanish during the Great Tribulation because everyone will see the evidence of what is predicted in Bible prophecy. However, until the Great Tribulation begins, we need a set of valid rules to guide our prophetic faith. If our rules of interpretation are valid, the books of Daniel and Revelation will form a unified story. A comprehensive explanation of God’s ways will unfold in a drama that is in perfect harmony with all Scripture!

After several years of study and discovery, I am excited to present the four rules that have unlocked the books of Daniel and Revelation. These four rules cover four primary aspects of apocalyptic interpretation: Chronology, Fulfillment, Language and Timing.

The four rules are:
1. Each apocalyptic prophecy has a beginning and ending point in time and the events within each prophecy must occur in the order they are given.

2. A fulfillment of apocalyptic prophecy occurs when all of the specifications within that prophecy are met. This includes the order of events outlined in the prophecy.

3. Apocalyptic language can be literal, symbolic, or analogous. To reach the intended meaning of a prophecy, the student must consider: (a) the context, (b) the use of parallel language in the Bible, and (c) relevant statements in the Bible that define that symbol if an element is thought to be symbolic.

4. God measures apocalyptic time in two ways: (a) a day for a year, and (b) as literal time. The presence or absence of the Jubilee calendar (1437 B.C. - 1994) determines how prophetic timing is determined.

Note: For further study on Rule Four, please see: http://www.wake-up.org/daystar/ds2000/Great Clocks.htm

If you would like to watch a series of video presentations on the Jubilee Calendar, please go to this link and scroll down about half way: http://www.wake-up.org/Videos/DanielVideos.htm

I hope you will test these four rules and observe their results. To help you get started, please view the seventeen prophecies in Daniel and Revelation which have been outlined in chart form according to Rule One at http://www.wake-up.org/Charts/TheChartBook.htm .
 
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iamlamad

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As a person might expect, God buried His secrets in the book of Daniel very well. However, when God wants something known, He enables ordinary men and women to discover extraordinary things He has hidden. Through the ages we find this discovery process at work: On or about the time of fulfillment, elements of prophecy are understood. For example, when it came time to understand the timing of Christ’s birth, the wise men from the East figured it out. (Matthew 2:2) The apostle Paul also noticed this phenomenon. Consider his words: “Surely you have heard about the administration of God’s grace that was given to me for you, that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.” (Ephesians 3:2-6)
...

I hope you will test these four rules and observe their results. To help you get started, please view the seventeen prophecies in Daniel and Revelation which have been outlined in chart form according to Rule One at http://www.wake-up.org/Charts/TheChartBook.htm .
Tim, someone like this author, whoever he or she is, may SOUND like they have it all together. But within a couple of minutes I see they are messed up. Read:

Then, the dragon chased woman to the desert for 1,260 years (a time, times and half a time) According to Rule Four, this time period must be translated using a day for year because the Jubilee Calendar is in operation

The truth is, John said 1260 days and it IS 1260 days or half of the 70th week. John gave us 5 verses to prove this and Daniel gave us two.

My suggest is, THROW IT OUT! (The rules.) They led this author straight into error.
 
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iamlamad

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Keras and lamad, I want to thank you both for your dialog. I'm getting to understand your prospectives better as we progress.
It's obvious from our previous posts our understanding on apocalyptic prophecy differ. The reason I think, is we are not using the valid rules of interpretation that God built into His prophecies.
It is my belief that everything God has created, which includes apocalyptic prophecy operates by way of His natural laws. These laws over time are discovered by individuals who spend much time in study or research in various fields of learning as the Holy spirit makes then know according to Gods timing.

Lamad, you seem to agree with Keras's method of understand the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, which is fine. However, I believe these rules are too general and will allow a lot of personal bias to override what that prophecies are intended to convey.

I hope we all can be in agreement on this at least, is that our individual pride in support of what we believe, should not take pressidence over the word of God, should we be seekers of truth.

So in this post I wish to expose you to what I think are God's four natural laws recently discovered within prophecy that have already reached their fulfillment.

Today, millions of Christians have embraced prophetic concepts that have no truth in them. A prophetic concept can appear to be true – if flaws rules, that is, certain presuppositions are used. For example, many Christians believe that the role of modern-day Israel is prophetically important during the end of the world. They also believe that a pre-tribulation rapture is imminent, but the underlying presuppositions that hold these ideas together are faulty. The New Covenant teaches that the Israel of God is not biological! Everyone in Christ is now the heir of Abraham. (Galatians 3:28,29)

(continued)
Tim, first off, I agree with very little that Keras posts. He does get some things right.

Next, there is really only ONE rule for understanding Daniel and Revelation: read, read read, meditate, meditate, meditate, PRAY MUCH IN THE SPIRIT and WAIT ON GOD to teach. He always will. However, few meditate, and even fewer yet even know what praying it the Spirit means. Is it any wonder we have so many wild and different ideas on prophecy?
I changed the color of one paragraph for an example. Notice the bolded text:
They also believe that a pre-tribulation rapture is imminent

Then about that, they write: the underlying presuppositions that hold these ideas together are faulty.

The truth is, the rapture WILL BE pretrib because GOD is pretrib.
The truth is, the rapture IS imminent because there is nothing prophesied that must come first.

A hidden truth: the devil KNOWS that all who are not looking for His coming and EXPECTING Him will be left behind. So the devil is going ALL OUT to get people to switch from being pretrib to anything else. Why? So they will NOT be expecting Him. The devil WANTS as many left behind as possible because HE THINKS He can get them to take the mark.

There are no presuppositions in pretrib: it is written plainly: Paul's rapture will be a moment before the Day of the Lord: in fact, the HIS COMING and the rapture will be the trigger for the Day of the Lord.

Where is THE DAY in Revelation: where does it begin? Again John tells us: at the 6th seal. Where then is "the trib" or the 70th week? It does not begin until the 7th seal, making the rapture CLEARLY pretrib.

Where people miss it: they doubt John in where the Day starts, they doubt Paul that the rapture will trigger Wrath, and they doubt John in where the 70th week begins. God made it so easy: He MARKED the 70th week with 7's: 7th seal - 7th trumpet - 7th vial.

They go on to write, The New Covenant teaches that the Israel of God is not biological!
I have one question for them: Find ANOTHER "Israel" on the map. Find another "Jerusalem" on the map. There is no other. OF COURSE the same Jerusalem that has been Jerusalem for centuries will be the END TIMES Jerusalem.

In short, you wasted a whole not of writing: oh, sorry: copying and pasting.
 
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Timtofly

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people miss it: they doubt John in where the Day starts, they doubt Paul that the rapture will trigger Wrath, and they doubt John in where the 70th week begins. God made it so easy: He MARKED the 70th week with 7's: 7th seal - 7th trumpet - 7th vial.
The 70th Week starts with the first seal. God's wrath is on the apostate church. They will have the blood of billions on their hands. Who the church is only God and each individual should know. At this time, I doubt even fruit can identify who is who. The 6th seal is the rapture, and it is also the start of the ministry of the Lamb on the earth. This earthly ministry will wrap up the rest of the tribulation and the harvest of all human souls. That is what is revealed in the ministry of the 144K disciples of the Lamb. The church is not here, because their harvest was wrapped up in the 4th seal. Whatever was harvested by then will be the only harvest afforded the church. That is why Paul states the church should always be prepared and always be bringing in the harvest. That has been the only responsibility of the church for the last 1990 years. Gather lost souls, and be prepared for the soon return of Christ. The rapture is not an escape, it is the times up point. What was done was done, no more opportunity left. If the church failed it failed. If the church succeeded it succeeded. But there will be an end, and the end will be very soon. Any denial is just going past the stated will of God, and just human imagination of second chances. If it was an escape, it would have happened before seal 4. By the end of 3.5 years only a third of humanity will be left. If there was more added to the church now and daily, less people will be on earth at the end. It is not just the Trumpets, most never mention the Thunderings. Those 7 judgments have not been revealed yet.
 
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keras

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The truth is, the rapture WILL BE pretrib because GOD is pretrib.
The truth is, the rapture IS imminent because there is nothing prophesied that must come first.
This wild conjecture and unbiblical fabrication, is our main area of disagreement.
God is pre-trib? NO; God is a God of vengeance and He directs His wrath against His enemies. Nahum 1:2
Soon we will all face the test: 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

I ask, no I demand; that anyone who promotes the 'rapture to heaven' theory, must post supporting scripture that clearly and undeniably proves their belief.
I have one question for them: Find ANOTHER "Israel" on the map
Jesus says; I have other sheep.....
Paul says; Not all of Israel is ethnic Israel......

MANY scriptures prophesy the virtual demise of Jewish Israel. You fanciful idea of them on earth while you strum harps in heaven, is beyond credibility.
 
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The 70th Week starts with the first seal. God's wrath is on the apostate church. They will have the blood of billions on their hands. Who the church is only God and each individual should know. At this time, I doubt even fruit can identify who is who. The 6th seal is the rapture, and it is also the start of the ministry of the Lamb on the earth. This earthly ministry will wrap up the rest of the tribulation and the harvest of all human souls. That is what is revealed in the ministry of the 144K disciples of the Lamb. The church is not here, because their harvest was wrapped up in the 4th seal. Whatever was harvested by then will be the only harvest afforded the church. That is why Paul states the church should always be prepared and always be bringing in the harvest. That has been the only responsibility of the church for the last 1990 years. Gather lost souls, and be prepared for the soon return of Christ. The rapture is not an escape, it is the times up point. What was done was done, no more opportunity left. If the church failed it failed. If the church succeeded it succeeded. But there will be an end, and the end will be very soon. Any denial is just going past the stated will of God, and just human imagination of second chances. If it was an escape, it would have happened before seal 4. By the end of 3.5 years only a third of humanity will be left. If there was more added to the church now and daily, less people will be on earth at the end. It is not just the Trumpets, most never mention the Thunderings. Those 7 judgments have not been revealed yet.
The 70th Week starts with the first seal. You start your post with myth. That is off to a very poor start. To say that you are pulling that first seal out of its context. EVERY believer should know, it is a huge no no to pull a verse out of its context.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


WHEN? When did Jesus get the book? It is plain as day: He got the book as soon as He ascended and sent the Holy Spirit down. Neither did He (or will He) wait 2000 years to open that first seal. You cannot find 2000 years anywhere there - not even trying to read between the lines: IT IS NOT THERE. Jesus opened that first seal as soon as He ascended and got the book. The truth is, God had been waiting 4000 years for SOMEONE to become worthy to open the seals so the BOOK could be opened so God could LEGALLY kick Satan off his throne as god of this world.

Next, did you really examine the first seal? Did you notice that John used the color white 17 times in Revelation - and 16 times it was to represent righteousness? No, you just heard somewhere that the first seal was the Antichrist and you ran with it.

The truth is, the first seal is the CHURCH (white for righteousness all 17 times) sent out with the GOSPEL.

God's wrath is on the apostate church. let's just believe Paul.

Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Ephesians 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1 Thessalonians 2:16
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

The 6th seal is the rapture You are close: the rapture will trigger the 6th seal.

The 6th seal is the ... start of the ministry of the Lamb on the earth. WHAT? His ministry started 2000 years ago!

That is what is revealed in the ministry of the 144K disciples of the Lamb. There is not ONE WORD written that the 144,000 do any kind of ministry. They might, but it is not written. What IS written is that they are firstfruits of the tribes of Israel.

The church is not here, because their harvest was wrapped up in the 4th seal. No, the 4th seal goes with the 3rd and 2nd seal: these three ride together trying to stop the advance of the gospel (the first seal). God has allowed Satan to use WAR, FAMINE, PESTILENCE and wild beasts to try and stop the gospel. But God limited them to operate in only 1/4 of the earth.

The rapture is not an escape OF COURSE it is an escape. Did you not read Luke 21:36? We get to escape "all these things" that will happen during the 70th week, but especially God's wrath poured out. Of course it is the end of the church age. I won't disagree there.

If it was an escape, it would have happened before seal 4. MYTH
 
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