[moved] Where does God's Wrath begin in Revelation?

[5thKingdom]

Probably in Seattle.

That is hilarious.

 

[iamlamad]

Iamlamad, I am afraid you are wrong on this one.

Satan will incarnate the statue image of the beast, making it appear to come alive and speak. Originally, when first made the image is inanimate, lifeless.

The first beast of Revelation 13 is a man and his kingdom. You are right on that one.

The second beast of Revelation 13 is the false prophet. You are right on that one.

The reason Satan will be incarnating the statue image and not the man is in the fulfillment of Ezekiel 28:16-19 about Satan's demise. The statue image of him will be turned to ashes exposing Satan all to see on the temple mount. Note: on my chart I have the statue image made and placed on the temple mount out in the open.


16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The reason for the great statue to be on the temple mount in the open (and not inside the temple sanctuary building, is because that is where the false prophet will have people gather and/or forced to gather to bow before the great statue. Them who refuse will be killed (beheaded Revelation 20:4, so awful I hate to even type about it). Revelation 13:15. (noted on my chart above the statue image)


View attachment 280194

What does the Word say?

13:15 And he [the False Prophet] had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

It appears that it is the image that demands all who refuse to worship it must die.
Does this mean Satan must be possessing this image? I don't think so.

 

[iamlamad]

There is no question the "wise virgins" separated from the "foolish virgins"
AFTER the end of the First Beast. Did you not read the END of the story?


Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps
are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough
for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And
while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready
[the wise virgins] went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.


You have to read the END of the story to see how the Last Saints "overcame"
the Beast by the "blood of the Lamb". Do not forget... during the First Beast
all "ten virgins" are shown here:


Rev 17:12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received
no kingdom as yet; [during the Great Commission] but receive power as kings
one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power
and strength unto the beast.


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give
their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


The ten "virgins" (also shown in Dan 7 and Rev 17 as ten "kings/horns)
are "overcome" by Satan during the First Beast [Rev 11:7] but they
separate form the False Prophet during the Second Beast.


You have got to read the WHOLE STORY to understand the EVENTS
happening in the First Beast and Second Beast. Did you notice Rev 17:17
which said that God puts it in their hearts to "give their kingdom to the Beast"


Remember... the Judgment of God BEGINS on the "House of God"


-----------------------------------------------------
The CONTEXT of 1 Peter 4:17
------------------------------------------------------
For the time is come that Judgment must BEGIN at the House of God
[both the "wheat and Tares"]: and if it [God's Judgment] FIRST begin with us
[begins with the saved "wheat"], what shall the end be of them that obey not
the Gospel of God [the unsaved "tares"] 18 And if the righteous [the saved "wheat"]
scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner [the unsaved "tares"] appear?
-------------------------
The purpose of Daniel's Fourth "Kingdom of Heaven" was to (first) bring
Judgment on the "Wise Virgins", or all the living Saints. This is shown in 1 Peter 4
as being both the "us" [in verse 17] and then as "the righteous" [in verse 18].
Then, after Judgment on the Saints is finished, God separates the "wheat and tares"
and brings Judgment on the "Anti-Christ" and "Foolish Virgins" (the Beast)...
which are represented by "them that obey not the Gospel of God" [in verse 17]
and then by "the ungodly and and the sinner" [in verse 18].
--------------------------


Jim
.

It must be imagination that links the ten virgins with ten kings. Oh, wait - they both have the number 10. that must be the link. I do hope you are kidding us.

John's chronology: Wedding in heaven, chapter 19. Supper in heaven, chapter 19. Then, AFTER the marriage and supper, Jesus descends.

Then, AFTER Jesus descends, He captures the Beast and False Prophet.
Marriage first, Beast captured later.

 

[iamlamad]

Rev_16:13
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, [Satan]
and out of the mouth of the beast, [followers of the False Prophet] and out of the mouth
of the false prophet [the "head" of the First and Second Beast].


Rev 19:20
And the beast [followers of the False Prophet] was taken, and with him the false prophet
[the "head" of the First and Second Beast] that wrought miracles before him, with which he
deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
These both [the False Prophet and the followers] were cast alive into a lake of fire burning
with brimstone.


Rev_20:10
And the devil [Satan] that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast [followers of the False Prophet] and the false prophet [head of the
First and Second Beast] are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

.

This post needs some correction:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, [Satan]
and out of the mouth of the beast, [the MAN of Sin turned Beast] and out of the mouth
of the false prophet [The MAN who will assist Satan to cause all to worship the first Beast by false miracles].

Rev 19:20
And the beast [the MAN of Sin turned Beast] was taken, and with him the false prophet [The MAN who will assist Satan to cause all to worship the first Beast by false miracles] that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image.
These both [the Beast and the False Prophet] were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev_20:10
And the devil [Satan] that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast [the MAN of Sin turned Beast] and the false prophet
[The MAN who will assist Satan to cause all to worship the first Beast by false miracles] are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

(I did like your colors.)

 

[iamlamad]

Probably in Seattle.

Hillarious!

 

[iamlamad]

That is simply not so...
The False Prophet was the "head" of BOTH the First Beast and Second Beast.


First... Remember, we are talking about the 7-Headed "Beast".
It is very important for you to understand that the Bible often calls the
"head" of the Beast by the NAME "Beast" (since he is the "head") however the
Bible also calls the FOLLOWERS (or kingdom) of the "head" by the NAME "Beast"
because they are the "Kingdom" of that "head". This can be confusing unless
Jim
.

This is nothing but words of imagination UNLESS you can show us verses correctly understood and not pulled from their context proving these statements.

The False Prophet was the "head" of BOTH the First Beast and Second Beast. Start here: this is a false statement because the second beast IS the False Prophet.

 

[iamlamad]

...
Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates;
and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon,
and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.


Notice this is the SAME EVENT as the passage below:


Rev 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of
the golden altar which is before God, Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the
trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour,
and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
.

AXIOM on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Therefore, without even looking I know your theory is wrong. A vial and a trumpet CANNOT be the "same event." that theory is myth. Why? First, they are different events. Second, the trumpets will sound during the first half of the week, and the vials late in the second half of the week. God will not warp time to fit your theory.

The only common ground here is the river Euphrates. In case you haven't noticed it, that river is still running (barely, with all the dams).

Note in verse 16:13: All three: the Dragon, the Beast and the False prophet have mouths. The Beast and False prophet are MEN.

 

[iamlamad]

BTW... the phrase "prepared for an hour and a day and a month and a year
to slay the third part of men" represents the "killing" of the Great Tribulation Saints
or the "wise virgins" of the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven". These saints were
"killed" because their prophecy was proven false on a specific year/month/day/hour.
Jim
.

Wrong yet again. What you are missing? TIME.

The third part of men killed is in the first half of the week. The days of great tribulation will come in the second half of the week - so your theory is impossible. You probably should not use "represents..." That means human reasoning that is almost always wrong.

 

[iamlamad]

And this all relates to the following:

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually
is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.Rev 11:9 And they of
the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three
days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.Rev 11:10
And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall
send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that
dwelt on the earth.


The passage above is talking about the Two Witnesses of Rev 11 which are also shown
as the "Locusts" of Rev 9 who "tormented" those in the church during the First Beast.
It is the First Beast that is "killed" on a specific year/month/day/hour. At the END
of the 1st Woe and beginning of the 2nd Woe:
Jim
.

the Two Witnesses of Rev 11 which are also shown as the "Locusts" of Rev 9 who "tormented" those in the church during the First Beast. So now, because two different passages have the word "torment" they must be about the same thing? You amaze me!

Again you miss TIME: Chapter 9 is in the first half of the Week, and the locusts that sting are the first woe and 5th trumpet ; so probably about the middle of the first half of the week. The first three verses in chapter 11, when the two witnesses suddenly show up and begin testifying will be just days before the midpoint of the week. So what you suggest is impossible when one understands TIME.

 

[BABerean2]

AXIOM on Revelation: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and WILL BE proven wrong.

Any theory which claims the Book of Revelation is in chronological order ignores the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, and Christ returning as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16.
Using the "parenthesis" idea to get around these two passages is a dodge on the truth.

Recapitulation in the Book of Revelation:

.

 

[Douggg]

13:15 And he [the False Prophet] had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

It appears that it is the image that demands all who refuse to worship it must die.
Does this mean Satan must be possessing this image? I don't think so.

No it is not the image itself that demands worship. But the false prophet.

he (subject of the sentence) had (verb) cause (verb)

However, that sentence alone does not mean Satan must be possessing the image.

It takes knowing what it says in Ezekiel 28:16-19 about Satan's demise. And that Satan will be worshiped in Revelation 13:4. And visualizing the scene when Jesus descends to earth in Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14.

 

[iamlamad]

Moreover, we are told IN SCRIPTURE that the Second Beast (eighth head) was the
SAME PERSON as the First Beat (seventh head).
Jim
.

I wonder if you can show us the scripture:
WHERE the second beast is the 8th head
where where it is the same person as the first beast
where the first beast is the seventh head?

 

[Timtofly]

Using the "parenthesis" idea to get around these two passages is a dodge on the truth.

Ignoring the parenthetical verse is ignoring the warning, John gave. If it was not in parenthesis, the verse would not even exist. If the verse is not there, how could you prove any point? That is what a parenthetical is. It is not part of the thought. It is inserted, as a warning. Read the passage without the warning. Then try to prove your point. Your only point is not there. It happened once, then the "shock" was gone. You are batting at ghost. The warning was for those who try to place the thief in the night event in the wrong place. Except now the warning has done just the opposite. It is no longer a warning, but a literal event. No, we literalist take it as a warning, not a literal event. Symbolism wants to make a literal warning symbolic of what? A warning is a warning, not a symbol.

 

[iamlamad]

No it is not the image itself that demands worship. But the false prophet.

he (subject of the sentence) had (verb) cause (verb)

However, that sentence alone does not mean Satan must be possessing the image.

It takes knowing what it says in Ezekiel 28:16-19 about Satan's demise. And that Satan will be worshiped in Revelation 13:4. And visualizing the scene when Jesus descends to earth in Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14.

13:15 And he [the False Prophet] had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

You are probably right here.

 

[Douggg]

@iamlamad one word added "revealed". The reason it is important to add "revealed" is because it takes the reader back to 2Thessalonians2:3-4 which started the process of the person becoming the the beast.


And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, [Satan]
and out of the mouth of the beast, [the revealed MAN of Sin turned Beast] and out of the mouth
of the false prophet [The MAN who will assist Satan to cause all to worship the first Beast by false miracles]

Rev_20:10
And the devil [Satan] that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast [the revealed MAN of Sin turned Beast] and the false prophet
[The MAN who will assist Satan to cause all to worship the first Beast by false miracles] are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[iamlamad]

@iamlamad one word added "revealed". The reason it is important to add "revealed" is because it takes the reader back to 2Thessalonians2:3-4 which started the process of the person becoming the the beast.


And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, [Satan]
and out of the mouth of the beast, [the revealed MAN of Sin turned Beast] and out of the mouth
of the false prophet [The MAN who will assist Satan to cause all to worship the first Beast by false miracles]

Rev_20:10
And the devil [Satan] that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone,
where the beast [the revealed MAN of Sin turned Beast] and the false prophet[The MAN who will assist Satan to cause all to worship the first Beast by false miracles] are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

I agree: he turns Beast after he is revealed.

 

[iamlamad]

Any theory which claims the Book of Revelation is in chronological order ignores the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:18, and Christ returning as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16.
Using the "parenthesis" idea to get around these two passages is a dodge on the truth.
.

No parenthesis: your problem is, you don't recognize that the verbs in this passage are all Greek Aorist tense verbs.

Strong's tells us of Aorist tense:
Is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense,

You try to put timing on these things: the writer did not.

Do you not realize that Rev. 19 (His coming) is after 16:15-16?

 

[5thKingdom]

It must be imagination that links the ten virgins with ten kings. Oh, wait - they both have the number 10. that must be the link. .

Oh wait... the "ten virgins" [Mat 25:1-13] are living on earth when Jesus Returns
Oh wait... the ten "kings/horns" [Dan 7] are living on earth when Jesus Returns
Oh wait... the ten "kings/horns" [Rev 17] are living on earth when Jesus Returns
Oh wait... the ten "kings" [Dan 2:44] are living on earth when Jesus Returns

Probably just a coincidence right?
LOL

.

 

[iamlamad]

Oh wait... the "ten virgins" [Mat 25:1-13] are living on earth when Jesus Returns
Oh wait... the ten "kings/horns" [Dan 7] are living on earth when Jesus Returns
Oh wait... the ten "kings/horns" [Rev 17] are living on earth when Jesus Returns
Oh wait... the ten "kings" [Dan 2:44] are living on earth when Jesus Returns

Probably just a coincidence right?
LOL

.

I would say "imagination." You and I will probably be living on earth when Jesus returns. Neither of us will be a part of the ten kings.

 

[5thKingdom]

You and I will probably be living on earth when Jesus returns. Neither of us will be a part of the ten kings.

You are hilarious:

(1) First you say you see no relationship between the ten virgins and ten kings/horns.
In fact you make this snarky remark

It must be imagination that links the ten virgins with ten kings. Oh, wait - they both have the number 10. that must be the link. .

(2) Than I show you the relationship.

Oh wait... the "ten virgins" [Mat 25:1-13] are living on earth when Jesus Returns
Oh wait... the ten "kings/horns" [Dan 7] are living on earth when Jesus Returns
Oh wait... the ten "kings/horns" [Rev 17] are living on earth when Jesus Returns
Oh wait... the ten "kings" [Dan 2:44] are living on earth when Jesus Returns

Probably just a coincidence right?
LOL


(3) Then you say the SCRIPTURES above are just an imagination

I would say "imagination."

(4) Then you say you and I will probably be living on earth and we are NOT
part of the "ten virgins" or ten "kings/horns"....

On this I agree with you in part.

You were NOT part of the "ten virgins" of Matthew 25:1.
But I was. That is why I can preach Biblical mysteries as the Seventh Trumpet
"begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11]

Remember, the Bible PROMISED the Last Saints (wise virgins) "shall understand"
Daniel's prophecies for the first time in history [Dan 12:8-10] and remember
Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see" the fulfillment of Great Tribulation
prophecies ("signs"), in fact, He said we would "see ALL THESE THINGS" be fulfilled
[Mat 24:15 and 24:33] and remember the Bible PROMISED the Last Saints
would be preaching these mysteries as the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound".

Well, here I am preaching these mysteries and giving SCRIPTURES which you say
are just an imagination... you actually said SCRIPTURES are an imagination and
you implied the LAST SAINTS are not the "ten virgins".

Either you are correct or the BIBLE is correct.
Which do you think it is?

.