(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[bugkiller]

Sadly for that suggestion - there is no exegesis of Jeremiah 31 where Jeremiah tells his readers to "ignore written scripture" as Jeremiah himself is in fact writing "more written scripture" -- and we all know it.

The same Law known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart under the New Covenant - as we see stated clearly in Jeremiah 31.

That cannot be bent into "do whatever you feel like doing" since as we all know - mankind continues to have a sinful nature even AFTER being converted.

Moses and Elijah - standing WITH Christ in glory -- BEFORE the cross... in Matthew 17 -- do not preach an "ignore written scripture" doctrine.

Righteousness does not come by the law.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Rom 3

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: Rom 4

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal 2

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: Phil 3

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

God has also stated that mankind has a sinful nature and has stated in Romans 8:4-10 that the unsaved "do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they" .. in fact Paul writes to Timothy that there comes a point when the conscience is "seared as with a hot iron" - so that we are warned from the ground of simply ignoring scripture and doing whatever we feel like doing "as our guide".

I think we all agree on that point.

That is why Jesus told Nicodemus about being born again. (Jn 3) Paul discusses this new man in Rom 6 and our dual natures in 7 and 8.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Indeed "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

Were not given as "an alternate gospel" but they are written on the heart under the Jer 31:31-33 New Cov

The Gospel is not the law.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

"Gentiles have always been able to become Hebrews. The Torah lays out exactly how a Gentile becomes an Israelite by heart circumcision first, then flesh circumcision. After a gentile has "crossed- over" and become circumcised in flesh, he is allowed to enter the Temple and keep Passover like any other Hebrew. So Gentiles have always been grafted in, there are rules though for how they do it."

Becoming Hebrews is exactly what you are pushing. The Apostles said no in Acts. Jesus said no very clearly in Jn 10.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

They were not offering pigs up to God as a sacrifice -
They were not supposed to be taking God's name in vain -
They were not supposed to murder -
They were not required to be circumcised in order to worship the one true God.
They had to honor their parents

etc -- EVEN if they did not observe Passover or get circumcised to be considered Jews - when entering the Temple.

Only Jews were permitted to enter the Temple. The Court of the Gentiles is not the Temple.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

That's an excellent point, I kinda wish I'd thought of it.
The Torah that Jeremiah was speaking of was the actual Torah. The NT was not even written yet.

It's such a simple yet profound point that I can't see any way to refute it.

Not surprised by your response at all. Jeremiah did not say the law issued at Sinai was written on anyone's heart.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

The written law we do not need to worry about.

Jeremiah 31
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

Sadly for that suggestion - there is no exegesis of Jeremiah 31 where Jeremiah tells his readers to "ignore written scripture" as Jeremiah himself is in fact writing "more written scripture" -- and we all know it.

The same Law known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart under the New Covenant - as we see stated clearly in Jeremiah 31.

That cannot be bent into "do whatever you feel like doing" since as we all know - mankind continues to have a sinful nature even AFTER being converted.

Moses and Elijah - standing WITH Christ in glory -- BEFORE the cross... in Matthew 17 -- do not preach an "ignore written scripture" doctrine.

Righteousness does not come by the law.

No but it is defined by it .. obedience to the Word of God turns out "to matter".

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Rom 3

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Romans 8:4-10 it is the lost who "do not submit to the LAW of God and indeed CAN NOT" by contrast to the saints.

Romans 2:13-16
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

[BobRyan]

They were not offering pigs up to God as a sacrifice -
They were not supposed to be taking God's name in vain -
They were not supposed to murder -
They were not required to be circumcised in order to worship the one true God.
They had to honor their parents

etc -- EVEN if they did not observe Passover or get circumcised to be considered Jews - when entering the Temple.

Only Jews were permitted to enter the Temple. The Court of the Gentiles is not the Temple.
bugkiller

True. The God fearing gentiles were in the "court of the gentiles" outside the temple - they worship the One True God - but are not Jews and were not circumcised. OT or NT.

 

[bugkiller]

Sadly for that suggestion - there is no exegesis of Jeremiah 31 where Jeremiah tells his readers to "ignore written scripture" as Jeremiah himself is in fact writing "more written scripture" -- and we all know it.

The same Law known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart under the New Covenant - as we see stated clearly in Jeremiah 31.

That cannot be bent into "do whatever you feel like doing" since as we all know - mankind continues to have a sinful nature even AFTER being converted.

Moses and Elijah - standing WITH Christ in glory -- BEFORE the cross... in Matthew 17 -- do not preach an "ignore written scripture" doctrine.



No but it is defined by it .. obedience to the Word of God turns out "to matter".

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Rom 3

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Romans 8:4-10 it is the lost who "do not submit to the LAW of God and indeed CAN NOT" by contrast to the saints.

Romans 2:13-16
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

The righteousness God requires is not defined by the law issued at Sinai.

The righteousness God requires can only be obtained by the declaration of God - Rom 4.

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

The righteousness God requires is not defined by the law issued at Sinai.

Until you read the actual Bible on the subject of the "righteous requirements of the LAW"

Rom 2
26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?

25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Rom 8:4-9 -- it is only the lost "who do not submit to the Law of God -- neither indeed CAN they" - by contrast to the saints in those same verses.

 

[klutedavid]

Sadly for that suggestion - there is no exegesis of Jeremiah 31 where Jeremiah tells his readers to "ignore written scripture" as Jeremiah himself is in fact writing "more written scripture" -- and we all know it.

The same Law known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart under the New Covenant - as we see stated clearly in Jeremiah 31.

That cannot be bent into "do whatever you feel like doing" since as we all know - mankind continues to have a sinful nature even AFTER being converted.

Moses and Elijah - standing WITH Christ in glory -- BEFORE the cross... in Matthew 17 -- do not preach an "ignore written scripture" doctrine.



No but it is defined by it .. obedience to the Word of God turns out "to matter".

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Rom 3

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Romans 8:4-10 it is the lost who "do not submit to the LAW of God and indeed CAN NOT" by contrast to the saints.

Romans 2:13-16
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Hello Bob.

Thanks for quoting that.

Romans 2
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves...

You cannot get around the clear instruction of the scripture, though you try Bob.

For anyone wearing glasses, 'WHO DO NOT HAVE THE LAW'.

Gentiles were never placed under the law by the apostles, the official decree in Acts 15, firmly denies that Gentiles will ever be under the yoke of the law!

Saved by Grace through faith.

 

[bugkiller]

Until you read the actual Bible on the subject of the "righteous requirements of the LAW"

Rom 2
26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?

25 For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision? 27 And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Rom 8:4-9 -- it is only the lost "who do not submit to the Law of God -- neither indeed CAN they" - by contrast to the saints in those same verses.

Who are the people in Rom 4 declared righteous? Was either done so by the law?

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

The written law we do not need to worry about.

Jeremiah 31
33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

Sadly for that suggestion - there is no exegesis of Jeremiah 31 where Jeremiah tells his readers to "ignore written scripture" as Jeremiah himself is in fact writing "more written scripture" -- and we all know it.

The same Law known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart under the New Covenant - as we see stated clearly in Jeremiah 31.

That cannot be bent into "do whatever you feel like doing" since as we all know - mankind continues to have a sinful nature even AFTER being converted.

Moses and Elijah - standing WITH Christ in glory -- BEFORE the cross... in Matthew 17 -- do not preach an "ignore written scripture" doctrine.

Righteousness does not come by the law.

No but it is defined by it .. obedience to the Word of God turns out "to matter".

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Rom 3

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Romans 8:4-10 it is the lost who "do not submit to the LAW of God and indeed CAN NOT" by contrast to the saints.

Romans 2:13-16
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Hello Bob.
Thanks for quoting that.

you are welcomed David -- any time.

Romans 2
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts,

recall that the NT "Writes the LAW on the heart and mind" Jeremiah 31:31-33..

Even for gentiles as it turns out.

You cannot get around the clear instruction of the scripture, though you try Bob.

For anyone wearing glasses, 'WHO DO NOT HAVE THE LAW'.

For anyone wearing glasses, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts,

For the New Covenant "writes the LAW on the heart and the mind" Jer 31:31-33

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

"Scripture" was called "the LAW and the prophets" as we see in Matthew 22 just as we see in Matthew 5.

 

[Meowzltov]

I think you may have ethnicity mixed up with nationality.
There are many ethnic groups within the United States but many of them are full fledged citizens of the USA. They need not change their ethnicity, nor could they.

It would be the same for the members of other nations that joined with Israel. They would not be Jews but would become members of the commonwealth of Israel. As such they would be expected to live according to the rules of Israel.

US Citizenship is not based on ethnicity. We are a nation that is made up of diverse ethnicities.

I think we are on the same page with regards to Israel. The State of Israel is primarily made up of one tribal people: the People of Israel. However there are a few Palestinian Israelis. They are part of the State of Israel (the commonwealth) but not part of Israel (the People of Israel).

 

[Dig4truth]

Not surprised by your response at all. Jeremiah did not say the law issued at Sinai was written on anyone's heart.

bugkiller

V.34 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

There is only one Torah/Law, and it says it will be written on our hearts.

How can you possibly read this any other way?

 

[bugkiller]

V.34 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

There is only one Torah/Law, and it says it will be written on our hearts.

How can you possibly read this any other way?

I have no idea how you can think it is the law issued at Sinai.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Notice the self defining verse (32) of the sentence. That verse simply will not support your view. There is really no need to get into the words "new" and "make" of verse 31.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

No but it is defined by it .. obedience to the Word of God turns out "to matter".

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Rom 3

"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31

Romans 8:4-10 it is the lost who "do not submit to the LAW of God and indeed CAN NOT" by contrast to the saints.

Romans 2:13-16
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. Jn 15

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. I Jn 3:23

34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. JN 13

bugkiller

 

[Dig4truth]

I have no idea how you can think it is the law issued at Sinai.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Notice the self defining verse (33) of the sentence. That verse simply will not support your view. There is really no need to get into the words "new" and "make" of verse 31.

bugkiller

When God says, "My Torah/Law", what do you think He is talking about?

Old Covenant, Torah written on stone.
Renewed Covenant, Torah written on hearts.

Is this too difficult?
What was God talking about since He only has one Torah?

 

[listed]

That's an excellent point, I kinda wish I'd thought of it.
The Torah that Jeremiah was speaking of was the actual Torah. The NT was not even written yet.

It's such a simple yet profound point that I can't see any way to refute it.

His point was there is no exegesis. The most likely cause is it doesn't agree with Bob.

 

[listed]

Yes, the law was written on the heart, not the ten commandments alone but the entire law. This also includes everything the Prophets wrote, so gluttony and heavy drinking are included for example.

None of that law issued at Sinai was written on anyone's heart.