(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[listed]

They are a nation whether they are under a theocratic rule or not.

II don't think buggy argued whether they are a nation or not. Since there is a nation called Israel from 1948, I really don't understand what is happening. The time of the Gentiles isn't over at this point and time.

 

[listed]

Until you notice the details in the actual text. And the fact that even Cain and Able were offering sacrifices -- as this was the OT form of liturgy for all mankind.

Cain and Abel weren't subject to the levitical law not in existence during their life time.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

I guess we weren't supposed to notice Cain and Abel didn't have the law issued at Sinai.

Nonesense... your argument that the liturgy of the OT "violates the Sabbath according to the OT" is your own "argument against the text" ... why do I have to explain the obvious???

Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

You keep quoting this --

6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

As if it helps your case... why keep doing that??

What is the problem with it? Most likely you haven't figured out a way to dismiss the passage.

we see even in the NT among NON-Christian Jews the uncircumcised gentiles worshiped the One True God in the Synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5 Sabbath after Sabbath.

We don't see anything telling us those gentiles kept the covenant issued at Sinai as you insist. Merely appearing in the synagogue isn't proof of observing the sabbath ort he law. Since it says gentiles, they were considered foreigners and couldn't participate in the rites of the law.

No wait! I don't think you understand -- I have always said you have the right to ignore whatever details you wish. I fully agree to your right to do so.

We grant you the same courtesy.

But for the rest of us --

Isaiah 56 still says this

6 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath
And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

You dismiss the qualifier.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

You said earlier that Gentiles were not circumcised in the Old or New Testament.

Hello David -

I actually said this --

Gentiles did not have to become Jews to worship the true God. That was never an OT demand.

Gentiles were told to observe the Sabbath in Isaiah 56:1-8 but never told that they had to be circumcised to be saved or to worship the one true God.

All mankind to come before God "from Sabbath to Sabbath" and bow down in worship Isaiah 66:23 -- but never do we see "all mankind circumcised" in OT or NT.

Hence Paul's statement here

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Gentiles did not have to become Jews to worship the true God. That was never an OT demand.

Gentiles were told to observe the Sabbath in Isaiah 56:1-8 but never told that they had to be circumcised to be saved or to worship the one true God.

As we see even in the NT among NON-Christian Jews the uncircumcised gentiles worshiped the One True God in the Synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5

All mankind to come before God "from Sabbath to Sabbath" and bow down in worship Isaiah 66:23 -- but never do we see "all mankind circumcised" in OT or NT.

Hence Paul's statement here

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

I showed you that Gentiles were circumcised to celebrate the Passover.

Indeed -- a "bait and switch" on your part having nothing at all to refute the much more general statement

Gentiles did not have to become Jews to worship the true God. That was never an OT demand.

As we see even in the NT among NON-Christian Jews the uncircumcised gentiles worshiped the One True God in the Synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5

Why can't you admit to your error?

Because your equivocation between the special case of 'Passover participation' with my more explicit statement about "never told that they had to be circumcised to be saved or to worship the one true God. " is much more transparently disconnected from "in order to celebrate Passover" then you may have at first imagined to yourself.

As I keep pointing out - over and over.

Exodus 12:48 - And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

so then not a requirement for all gentiles to keep Passover, to move to Israel or to be circumcised in order to worship God and accept the Bible.

But if such a gentile DID want to move to Israel and keep Passover - they would need to be circumcised.

Almost never would happen.

The point remains in that case.

We have to look at this in context, because right before this, he was disputing Judaizers that claimed that the only way to be saved, was to first be circumcised, but he pointed out Abraham.

1 Cor 7:19 "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

 

[BobRyan]

Cain and Abel weren't subject to the levitical law not in existence during their life time.

They were not offering pigs up to God as a sacrifice -
They were not supposed to be taking God's name in vain -
They were not supposed to murder -
They were not required to be circumcised in order to worship the one true God.

In fact no gentiles were required to be circumcised in the OT if all they wanted to do was live in their own land and worship the true God.

 

[listed]

Hello Devin P.

I have an issue with the following.

Sin is sin, whether one has the law or not, because it boils down to how you treat other people. God can judge you just as effectively with or without the law.

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law.

God destroyed the world already, think Noah. How many living in the time of Noah had the law?

The law demonstrates what sin is but the law does not cover a range of other sins. In effect the law is weak, one because it cannot save anyone. And two, because the law does not deal with the major sins in society today (gluttony, gambling, drinking, drugs, porn, e.t.c.)

Identifying a sin with the law is useless, unless someone has the power to deal with that sin.

The law is weak because it doesn't and can't change the will.

 

[listed]

What he means by all who have sinned without the law will perish without it is referring to those without it. Gentiles, or disobedient ones. Those without the law will still be punished according to it.

Sin is the transgression of the law. You wouldn't be able to sin without the law being in place.

No. A person will be punished for not accepting redemption.

 

[Dig4truth]

Sadly for that suggestion - there is no exegesis of Jeremiah 31 where Jeremiah tells his readers to "ignore written scripture" as Jeremiah himself is in fact writing "more written scripture" -- and we all know it.

The same Law known to Jeremiah and his readers is written on the heart under the New Covenant - as we see stated clearly in Jeremiah 31.

That cannot be bent into "do whatever you feel like doing" since as we all know - mankind continues to have a sinful nature even AFTER being converted.

Moses and Elijah - standing WITH Christ in glory -- BEFORE the cross... in Matthew 17 -- do not preach an "ignore written scripture" doctrine.

That's an excellent point, I kinda wish I'd thought of it.
The Torah that Jeremiah was speaking of was the actual Torah. The NT was not even written yet.

It's such a simple yet profound point that I can't see any way to refute it.

 

[klutedavid]

They were not offering pigs up to God as a sacrifice -
They were not supposed to be taking God's name in vain -
They were not supposed to murder -
They were not required to be circumcised in order to worship the one true God.

In fact no gentiles were required to be circumcised in the OT if all they wanted to do was live in their own land and worship the true God.

Hello Bob.

Before the law of Moses where is it written that people could not take God's name in vain?

They were not supposed to be taking God's name in vain

You need to provide the written evidence of this law, before the law was given to Israel at Mt Sinai.

 

[klutedavid]

That's an excellent point, I kinda wish I'd thought of it.
The Torah that Jeremiah was speaking of was the actual Torah. The NT was not even written yet.

It's such a simple yet profound point that I can't see any way to refute it.

Yes, the law was written on the heart, not the ten commandments alone but the entire law. This also includes everything the Prophets wrote, so gluttony and heavy drinking are included for example.

 

[Bob S]

Indeed "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5
"Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
Were not given as "an alternate gospel" but they are written on the heart under the Jer 31:31-33 New Cov

I wrote:
"We do know one thing. Nothing in Torah (old covenant) could save one Israelite. ."

Bob, why is it you seem to always take the truth that someone writes, as I did in my post, and respond with something off the topic? Your post adds absolutely nothing to my post. It does not deny what I wrote and I really do not know why you respond at all when you don't have anything to add.

I pray this helps you in your upcoming posts.

 

[klutedavid]

They were not offering pigs up to God as a sacrifice -
They were not supposed to be taking God's name in vain -
They were not supposed to murder -
They were not required to be circumcised in order to worship the one true God.

In fact no gentiles were required to be circumcised in the OT if all they wanted to do was live in their own land and worship the true God.

Hello Bob.

A Gentile that converted to Judaism would be taught the law, why is that? Because that is the law that God gave to the nation of Israel. Of course they would follow the entire law and be circumcised, how else could they celebrate the Passover? Real Jews celebrate the Passover and it is a very important celebration. Your under the impression that a Gentile convert to Judaism would neglect circumcision, would avoid the Passover meal, not want to live in the promised land?

Why would a Gentile convert not want to live in Israel?

Exodus 6:8
I will bring you to the land which I swore to give to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and I will give it to you for a possession; I am the Lord.’”

That was the reward for obedience to the law.

It is all about real estate in the O.T.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

A Gentile that converted to Judaism would be taught the law, why is that?

Because the Bible "matters".

They would be taught that "for Jews" in Israel only 3 feasts were mandatory -- all others we optional for Jews. And they would be taught that gentiles were not required to observe Passover nor were they required to be circumcised. They could worship the one true God in the "court of the gentiles" and would be fully accepted by God.

And the same was promised to them in Isaiah 56:1-8 regarding Sabbath observance also being for them.

But IF they chose to observe passover and to enter into the temple beyond "the court of the gentiles" they would need to become a Jew.

Because that is the law that God gave to the nation of Israel. .

They were not offering pigs up to God as a sacrifice -
They were not supposed to be taking God's name in vain -
They were not supposed to murder -
They were not required to be circumcised in order to worship the one true God.
They had to honor their parents

etc -- EVEN if they did not observe Passover or get circumcised to be considered Jews - when entering the Temple.

In fact no gentiles were required to be circumcised in the OT if all they wanted to do was live in their own land and worship the true God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hello David -

I actually said this --



Gentiles did not have to become Jews to worship the true God. That was never an OT demand.

Gentiles were told to observe the Sabbath in Isaiah 56:1-8 but never told that they had to be circumcised to be saved or to worship the one true God.

As we see even in the NT among NON-Christian Jews the uncircumcised gentiles worshiped the One True God in the Synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5

All mankind to come before God "from Sabbath to Sabbath" and bow down in worship Isaiah 66:23 -- but never do we see "all mankind circumcised" in OT or NT.

Hence Paul's statement here

"circumcision is nothing and uncirumcision is nothing but what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19



Indeed -- a "bait and switch" on your part having nothing at all to refute the much more general statement

Gentiles did not have to become Jews to worship the true God. That was never an OT demand.

As we see even in the NT among NON-Christian Jews the uncircumcised gentiles worshiped the One True God in the Synagogues in Acts 13, Acts 17:1-4, Acts 18:1-5



Because your equivocation between the special case of 'Passover participation' with my more explicit statement about "never told that they had to be circumcised to be saved or to worship the one true God. " is much more transparently disconnected from "in order to celebrate Passover" then you may have at first imagined to yourself.

As I keep pointing out - over and over.



so then not a requirement for all gentiles to keep Passover, to move to Israel or to be circumcised in order to worship God and accept the Bible.

But if such a gentile DID want to move to Israel and keep Passover - they would need to be circumcised.

Almost never would happen.

The point remains in that case.



1 Cor 7:19 "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

How do you know if the Gentiles who came to worship in the temple were circumcised or uncircumcised?

Did I miss a verse?

 

[BobRyan]

How do you know if the Gentiles who came to worship in the temple were circumcised or uncircumcised?

Did I miss a verse?

In Acts 13 - the gentiles are referred to as "Those who fear God" -

Titus was a "god fearing gentile" not required to be circumcised as we see in Galatians 2.

However Paul requires that Timothy be circumcised in Acts 16 because he was Jewish.

from God-fearer - Wikipedia

A God-fearer or Godfearer was a member of a class of non-Jewish (gentile) sympathizers to Second Temple Judaism mentioned in the Christian New Testament and other contemporary sources such as synagogue inscriptions in diaspora Hellenistic Judaism. The concept has precedents in the proselytes of the Hebrew Bible.


Hebrew Bible
In the Hebrew Bible, there is some recognition of non-Jewish monotheistic worship as being directed toward the same God. This forms the category of yirei Hashem ("יראי השם" meaning "Fearers of the Name", "the Name" being a Jewish euphemism for the Tetragrammaton, cf. Psalm 115:11).[1][2] This was developed by later rabbinic literature into the concept of Noahides, Gentiles following the seven Noahide laws, which rabbinic writings assigned to the Noahic covenant.[3]


Gentiles could not keep Passover and must remain limited by the "court of the gentiles" when at the Temple worshiping the One True God.

Acts 13

26Brothers, children of Abraham, and you Gentiles who fear God, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

 

[BobRyan]

from The Court of the Gentiles (Herod's Temple )

The Court of the Gentiles

The entire Temple compound was considered holy, but it became increasingly more holy as one entered farther in, from east to west. King Herod had enclosed the outer court with colonnades and it was referred to as the Court of the Gentiles because the "gentiles" (non-Jews) were permitted to enter the Temple area. They could walk within in it but they were forbidden to go any further than the outer court. They were excluded from entering into any of the inner courts, and warning signs in Greek and Latin were placed that gave warning that the penalty for such trespass was death. The Romans permitted the Jewish authorities to carry out the death penalty for this offence, even if the offender were a Roman citizen. It was for this alleged crime that Paul was attacked and nearly beaten to death by an angry crowd during his last visit to Jerusalem (Acts 21:27-32).

Acts 21:27-32 "Now when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him, crying out, "Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place." (For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian with him in the city, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.) And all the city was disturbed; and the people ran together, seized Paul, and dragged him out of the temple; and immediately the doors were shut. Now as they were seeking to kill him, news came to the commander of the garrison that all Jerusalem was in an uproar. He immediately took soldiers and centurions, and ran down to them. And when they saw the commander and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul."
It was into these outer courts that Jesus came and drove out the money-changers who had been accumulating wealth by using the Temple as a place of merchandise.

The Temple precincts was divided into 4 courts:

1. The Court of the Priests
2. The Court of Israel
3. The Court of the Women
4. The Court of the Gentiles

 

[BobRyan]

from Court of the Gentiles: Second Temple - Resources for Ancient Biblical Studies

Walls and Gates of Herod's Temple Wall, "Chel," "Coregh," Gates. In the upper or northerly part of this large area, on a much higher level, bounded likewise by a wall, was a second or inner enclosure--the "sanctuary" in the stricter sense (Josephus, BJ, V, v, 2)--comprising the court of the women, the court of Israeland the priests' court, with the temple itself (Josephus, Ant, XV, xi, 5). The surrounding wall, according to Josephus (BJ, V, v, 2), was 40 cubits high on the outside, and 25 on the inside--a difference of 15 cubits; its thickness was 5 cubits. Since, however, the inner courts were considerably higher than the court of the women, the difference in height may have been some cubits less in the latter than in the former (compare the different measurements in Kennedy, ut supra, 182), a fact which may explain the difficulty felt as to the number of the steps in the ascent (see below). Round the wall without, at least on three sides (some except the West), at a height of 12 (Mid.) or 14 (Jos) steps, was an embankment or terrace, known as the chel (fortification), 10 cubits broad (Mid. says 6 cubits high), and enclosing the whole was a low balustrade or stone parapet (Josephus says 3 cubits high) called the coregh, to which were attached at intervals tablets with notices in Greek and Latin, prohibiting entry to foreigners on pain of death (see PARTITION, THE MIDDLE WALL OF). From within the coregh ascent was made to the level of the chel by the steps aforesaid, and five steps more led up to the gates

 

[BobRyan]

"Gentiles have always been able to become Hebrews. The Torah lays out exactly how a Gentile becomes an Israelite by heart circumcision first, then flesh circumcision. After a gentile has "crossed- over" and become circumcised in flesh, he is allowed to enter the Temple and keep Passover like any other Hebrew. So Gentiles have always been grafted in, there are rules though for how they do it."

 

[BobRyan]

They were not offering pigs up to God as a sacrifice -
They were not supposed to be taking God's name in vain -
They were not supposed to murder -
They were not required to be circumcised in order to worship the one true God.
They had to honor their parents

etc -- EVEN if they did not observe Passover or get circumcised to be considered Jews - when entering the Temple.

Hello Bob.
Before the law of Moses where is it written that people could not take God's name in vain?

Do tell... exactly what point would you like to make with that comment??

 

[bugkiller]

Exodus 12:48 - And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Joshua 5:2 - At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time.

I'll also mention Abraham getting circumcised. Since you're arguing only Jews, or Israel needed to be circumcised, yet, Abraham was neither, and still got circumcised.

This (Joshua 5:2) was referring to Israel. I'll note, Israel at this time was made up of the offspring of both, natural born, and grafted Egyptians. Both were made to be circumcised. He made no distinction, meaning we can be safe in saying it was to all of the children of both the former Egyptians, and the first Israelites.

We have to look at this in context, because right before this, he was disputing Judaizers that claimed that the only way to be saved, was to first be circumcised, but he pointed out Abraham. That, first he had faith, and then he solidified that faith and sealed it by circumcision. Just as Abraham was, he said we are to be. He was making an example, saying, we are saved and justified by faith alone, but that eventually that faith would cause us to get circumcised. Not to save ourselves, but because we already were saved by Jesus - through faith.


Joshua 5:5 - Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that wereborn in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.

This verse says that "all the people" that came out were circumcised. Came out of where? Egypt. All those that came out of Egypt. Egyptians also came out with Israel, and they were counted as Israel, because they followed after YHWH. This doesn't say, all natural-born Israel, except those born in Egypt. No, it said that all that came out of Egypt. This is including the Egyptians that came out as well.

It then goes on to describe those that weren't circumcised, as those that were born along the way after they had come out. So, since all the first generation was dead, and the second generation was alive, most of them from the second generation weren't circumcised. This makes no distinction between natural born, nor foreigner, because as Torah says constantly, they shall be to them as one born IN the land. That they shall be as a NATIVE born.

There is not one law for the Israelites, and another for gentiles. Otherwise, as someone else so wisely pointed out on one of these forums. If this was the case, then God would have had no ground to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because they weren't part of Israel. They were gentiles. Nor would He have any grounds to give Israel the promised land, because as He says, it's not for Israel's righteousness that He gives them the land, but because of the unrighteousness of those being removed. They wouldn't be expected to live up to the standards of the law not given to them. His law has no limitations to who it applies to. It applies to all flesh, because His law is the only way we know what sin is, meaning, if it was only given to Israel, no one else would be sinning, because the very definition of sin wouldn't even be applicable to them.

I think you got your ideas from some MJ group. What you post makes me so sad, I cannot respond with anything else fearing being reported.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

What he means by all who have sinned without the law will perish without it is referring to those without it. Gentiles, or disobedient ones. Those without the law will still be punished according to it.

Sin is the transgression of the law. You wouldn't be able to sin without the law being in place.

No the law is partly in place to legally deal with sin. Another part is to drive us to the Redeemer Jesus the Christ.

bugkiller