(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[bugkiller]

You don't understand sarcasm do you?

And Israel is not the same as the Jews. The Jews are a tribe of Israel but not all of the Jews are really Israel. Kind of like how not all Christians are real Christians. Jesus died so that the 10 northern tribes of Israel could enter back into marriage covenant with Him. That's why He said only multiple occasions that He only came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel (a reference to the 10 lost northern tribes). Of course, Gentile believers have always been allowed to be grafted into Israel and Jesus instructs His disciples to go out to all the nations and fish out the 10 northern tribes and any gentiles who want to be grafted in (a fulfillment of Jeremiah 16:16). Look at Uriah THE HITTITE. He's a HITTITE (as in of the nations that God and Israel fought when conquering the promised land) but he was grafted into Israel.

How did this happen?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

YOU are a very smart human!!!!

You know that?

It would APPEAR that FROM SCRIPTURE ALONE, that God's Covenant was(AND STILL IS) SOLELY with Israel.

NOT genetic Israel as it was before Christ, but the "SPIRITUAL" House of Israel that has the TESTIMONY of Christ, and KEEPS the 10 Commandments of God!

As far as the"Anti-Christ"
(which as a SINGULAR INDIVIDUAL is absolutely non-Scriptural)
[excluding Satan which IS the 8th, and causes fire to come down from heaven to cause humans to worship the image and TAKE THE MARK)]


As the leader of the 4th BEAST (diverse)[religious]Kingdom of Daniel, the "Little Horn" HAS and STILL DOES exist as a ROMAN Pagan Title of Supreme Religious Authority, since the fall of the 3rd Beast(Greece).

IF you want Scriptural and HISTORICAL PROOF;

Decide for yourselves!

Does Human History CONFIRM Biblical Prophecy as 100%TRUTH?
IDENTIFYING Daniel's 4th Beast ("Little Horn") A.K.A. -Revelation 17's Harlot Babylon

Jn 3:16 must be an error.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Here is one of your quotes:

"No problem. There are clearly three folds in the verse. Do I need to post a word for word literal translation and meanings of each?"

I guess you do need to explain that.


The root of the olive tree is Yeshua and the tree is Israel. What leads you to believe that the tree will be anything other than what the root is? Yeshua said that He only came for the lost sheep of Israel (His people).

Yeshua is not Israel.

Where does it say that the New Covenant was made with anyone other than Israel? Can you provide a Scripture?

I referenced John and Acts which seem to be rejected.

Since we have established that there is only ONE body of Messiah and that Israel has NOT been rejected, what do you conclude as the identity of the body of Messiah?

Jews (Israeli) are branches of the Olive Tree. They are not the olive tree discussed in Rom 11. My Jn 15 discussion of the vine is being ignored. It is obvious that grafting is not understood. Grafting is done with root stock, not grown plants. It is done because the root stock offers something the grafted plant does not have. for your convenience I pasted the following:

Grafting or graftage[1] is a horticultural technique whereby tissues of plants are joined so as to continue their growth together. The upper part of the combined plant is called the scion (/ˈsaɪən/) while the lower part is called the rootstock. The success of this joining requires that the vascular tissue grow together and such joining is called inosculation. The technique is most commonly used in asexual propagation of commercially grown plants for the horticultural and agricultural trades.

In most cases, one plant is selected for its roots and this is called the stock or rootstock. The other plant is selected for its stems, leaves, flowers, or fruits and is called the scion or cion.[1] The scion contains the desired genes to be duplicated in future production by the stock/scion plant.

In stem grafting, a common grafting method, a shoot of a selected, desired plant cultivar is grafted onto the stock of another type. In another common form called bud grafting, a dormant side bud is grafted onto the stem of another stock plant, and when it has inosculated successfully, it is encouraged to grow by pruning off the stem of the stock plant just above the newly grafted bud.

For successful grafting to take place, the vascular cambium tissues of the stock and scion plants must be placed in contact with each other. Both tissues must be kept alive until the graft has "taken", usually a period of a few weeks. Successful grafting only requires that a vascular connection take place between the grafted tissues. Joints formed by grafting are not as strong as naturally formed joints, so a physical weak point often still occurs at the graft because only the newly formed tissues inosculate with each other. The existing structural tissue (or wood) of the stock plant does not fuse.

bugkiller

 

[klutedavid]

John 10:16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Rom 12:4-5 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another.

I Cor 10:16-17 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread.

I Cor 12:12-13 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

I Cor 12:20 But now there are many members, but one body.

Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

Eph 4:4-5 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Col 3:15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body; and be thankful.


I think the scriptures are clear, there is only one body of Messiah. Not three.






Rom 11:1-2a I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”


From this text we can see that:
*Israel has not been rejected.
*Gentiles are grafted into "Israel's own olive tree".
*Once the fullness of the Gentiles has come into (grafted into) Israel, then all Israel will be saved.
Done, but you'll need to expand to see the highlights.

Hello Dig4truth.

When Paul wrote the letter to the Romans, God had not yet made it clear that He had rejected the nation of Israel. If Paul had written this letter a decade or two after he wrote it, he would not have said that God had not rejected Israel.

We have the good fortune of witnessing the termination of the old covenant in AD 70.
Israel lost it's homeland, Israel the nation vanished into history. Paul would have been devastated if he had been around in AD 70, no doubt he would have edited his letter to the Romans.

The Gentiles are not in fact grafted into a Jewish olive tree, Gentiles are grafted into the root which is Christ. All Israel cannot be saved because the nation of Israel or better, theocratic Israel no longer exists!

 

[Dig4truth]

Yeshua is not Israel.I referenced John and Acts which seem to be rejected.
Jews (Israeli) are branches of the Olive Tree. They are not the olive tree discussed in Rom 11. My Jn 15 discussion of the vine is being ignored. It is obvious that grafting is not understood. Grafting is done with root stock, not grown plants. It is done because the root stock offers something the grafted plant does not have. for your convenience I pasted the following:

Grafting or graftage[1] is a horticultural technique whereby tissues of plants are joined so as to continue their growth together. The upper part of the combined plant is called the scion (/ˈsaɪən/) while the lower part is called the rootstock. The success of this joining requires that the vascular tissue grow together and such joining is called inosculation. The technique is most commonly used in asexual propagation of commercially grown plants for the horticultural and agricultural trades.

In most cases, one plant is selected for its roots and this is called the stock or rootstock. The other plant is selected for its stems, leaves, flowers, or fruits and is called the scion or cion.[1] The scion contains the desired genes to be duplicated in future production by the stock/scion plant.

In stem grafting, a common grafting method, a shoot of a selected, desired plant cultivar is grafted onto the stock of another type. In another common form called bud grafting, a dormant side bud is grafted onto the stem of another stock plant, and when it has inosculated successfully, it is encouraged to grow by pruning off the stem of the stock plant just above the newly grafted bud.

For successful grafting to take place, the vascular cambium tissues of the stock and scion plants must be placed in contact with each other. Both tissues must be kept alive until the graft has "taken", usually a period of a few weeks. Successful grafting only requires that a vascular connection take place between the grafted tissues. Joints formed by grafting are not as strong as naturally formed joints, so a physical weak point often still occurs at the graft because only the newly formed tissues inosculate with each other. The existing structural tissue (or wood) of the stock plant does not fuse.

bugkiller

Yeshua is a part of Israel and He represents Israel.

Isa 11:1-2 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

Psalm 80:1 Oh, give ear, Shepherd of Israel,
You who lead Joseph like a flock;
You who are enthroned above the cherubim, shine forth!

Psalm 89:18 For our shield belongs to the Lord,
And our king to the Holy One of Israel.

Jer 28:2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, ‘I have broken the yoke of the king of Babylon.


Grafting does not occur at the root. The term "stock" or "rootstock" signifies which is the parent plant (contains the roots). At the most extreme grafting example a trunk can be grafted into another trunk, but never the roots. Mostly it is the branches and buds that are grafted.

 

[BobRyan]

Where does it say that the New Covenant was made with anyone other than Israel? Can you provide a Scripture?

Since we have established that there is only ONE body of Messiah and that Israel has NOT been rejected, what do you conclude as the identity of the body of Messiah?

1. It is the NEW Jerusalem - that is the home of the saints.
2. As you point out - it is "The house of Israel and the house of Judah" with which the NEW Covenant is made.
3. Romans 2 points to all the saints as "Jews" -- " For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit,"

Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

And the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" is the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers.

All good news.

 

[Bob S]

The nation of Israel was most certainly rejected. They broke the covenant so many times that God finally scattered them all over the World. Israel, today, is a different nation. The covenant with Israel was a conditional covenant. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” Ex19:5-6

Israel didn't keep the covenant and lost the land of Canaan. The covenant with its 613 rules was voided ( It takes two parties to make a covenant and Israel broke their part) The descendants of those Israelites are grafted on to the base of the tree just as gentiles are. Each of us is required to give our hearts to Jesus, accept His mercy and live a life of loving God, love all of mankind and love ourselves. We are not obligated to observe the ritual commands that were a part of life in Canaan. The new covenant is about our home in Heaven. the Mosaic covenant was about Israels home in Canaan.

 

[Dig4truth]

Bugkiller, you were going to explain this:

"No problem. There are clearly three folds in the verse. Do I need to post a word for word literal translation and meanings of each?"

I guess you do need to explain that.

Still waiting.

 

[Dig4truth]

Hello Dig4truth.

When Paul wrote the letter to the Romans, God had not yet made it clear that He had rejected the nation of Israel. If Paul had written this letter a decade or two after he wrote it, he would not have said that God had not rejected Israel.

We have the good fortune of witnessing the termination of the old covenant in AD 70.
Israel lost it's homeland, Israel the nation vanished into history. Paul would have been devastated if he had been around in AD 70, no doubt he would have edited his letter to the Romans.

The Gentiles are not in fact grafted into a Jewish olive tree, Gentiles are grafted into the root which is Christ. All Israel cannot be saved because the nation of Israel or better, theocratic Israel no longer exists!

Maybe you missed some of the scriptural evidence that Israel is still God's chosen people.

Jer 31:35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36“If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

Given this truth I would understand if you wanted to reconsider your position.

 

[Dig4truth]

1. It is the NEW Jerusalem - that is the home of the saints. 2. As you point out - it is "The house of Israel and the house of Judah" with which the NEW Covenant is made.
3. Romans 2 points to all the saints as "Jews" -- " For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit,"

Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

And the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" is the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers.

All good news.

I like to take a look at the New Jerusalem, it is quite encouraging!

It is the bride of Messiah!
You would think that with some of the attitudes around here that there would be a ton of Gentiles visable and very few Jews. Is that true though?

Rev 21:9-14 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Well, the gates are the tribes of Israel! How is anyone getting in without going thru one of the gates? Anyway, the foundation stones are the Apostles.

Hmm, where are the Gentiles!?

Interesting point, yes?!

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

Jn 3:16 must be an error.

bugkiller

Could it be that those that believe are counted as Israel?

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Why are the 144,000 ALL from the twelve tribes of Israel, and not "Christian" denominations?

Matthew 15:24
But he(Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

Well my guess is the NT is not true by your post. So since you choose religion all I can say is pick your poison because it does not matter. But then why are you here if that is really the case?

bugkiller

To bear witness to the truth in a deceived world that cannot hear truth.

But that will all change at the appointed time.

 

[klutedavid]

Maybe you missed some of the scriptural evidence that Israel is still God's chosen people.

Jer 31:35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36“If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

Given this truth I would understand if you wanted to reconsider your position.

Hello Dig4truth.

Reconsider my position you say, history prohibits any reconsideration.

There are two different realms spoken of in the scripture, one is the earthly realm, i.e., physical Israel, the other is in the spiritual realm, a spiritual Israel. These two realms have nothing in common, one was a mere shadow realm, a temporary earthly nation of Israel. The other is the true spiritual reality, a spiritual nation, an eternal kingdom in Christ.

You must read the scripture properly and understand the dual nature of this narration.
The messiah is not an earthly king of a nation founded on blood lineage. The messiah was the divine King ruling over the heavenly nation.

Theocratic Israel was terminated by God, theocratic Israel is gone forever, though the heavenly Israel this spiritual Israel is forever. The Lord's true kingdom is not of this world, hence, physical Israel is not the kingdom spoken of in the scripture.

I reject your claim based on Jeremiah, your literal interpretation corrupts the text.

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Lee.

You said.

Could it be that those that believe are counted as Israel?

Those that believe belong to the heavenly kingdom of Christ, believers cannot become earthly Jewish citizens.

Why are the 144,000 ALL from the twelve tribes of Israel, and not "Christian" denominations?

Because the 144,000 are Jewish only, the text is not discussing Gentiles.

 

[Dig4truth]

Hello Dig4truth.

Reconsider my position you say, history prohibits any reconsideration.

There are two different realms spoken of in the scripture, one is the earthly realm, i.e., physical Israel, the other is in the spiritual realm, a spiritual Israel. These two realms have nothing in common, one was a mere shadow realm, a temporary earthly nation of Israel. The other is the true spiritual reality, a spiritual nation, an eternal kingdom in Christ.

You must read the scripture properly and understand the dual nature of this narration.
The messiah is not an earthly king of a nation founded on blood lineage. The messiah was the divine King ruling over the heavenly nation.

Theocratic Israel was terminated by God, theocratic Israel is gone forever, though the heavenly Israel this spiritual Israel is forever. The Lord's true kingdom is not of this world, hence, physical Israel is not the kingdom spoken of in the scripture.

I reject your claim based on Jeremiah, your literal interpretation corrupts the text.

Sorry for being literal.

 

[BobRyan]

Because the 144,000 are Jewish only, the text is not discussing Gentiles.

And no "gentiles" under the New Covenant in our POV????

No "gentiles" in Romans 2 accounted as Jews-- in your POV??

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

There are two different realms spoken of in the scripture, one is the earthly realm, i.e., physical Israel, the other is in the spiritual realm, a spiritual Israel. These two realms have nothing in common, one was a mere shadow realm, a temporary earthly nation of Israel. The other is the true spiritual reality, a spiritual nation, an eternal kingdom in Christ.

So then you do claim to be a Jew? Romans 2

A child of the promise ? ... Romans 9

How then do you know that this is not what we also see in Rev 7 - the 144,000???

 

[Lee Stuvmen]

Hello Lee.

You said.

Those that believe belong to the heavenly kingdom of Christ, believers cannot become earthly Jewish citizens.

Because the 144,000 are Jewish only, the text is not discussing Gentiles.

You are correct on both counts

But no one is talking about an EARTHLY citizenship.


God's New Jerusalem that is to come down from Heaven has 12 gates through which the SPIRITUAL citizens of the Heavenly kingdom will enter through.

None of those gates are for "fleshly gentiles",

Revelation 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.


Matthew 10:6
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

[bugkiller]

Yeshua is a part of Israel and He represents Israel.

Jesus Christ does not represent Israel. Jesus is God.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Grafting does not occur at the root. The term "stock" or "rootstock" signifies which is the parent plant (contains the roots). At the most extreme grafting example a trunk can be grafted into another trunk, but never the roots. Mostly it is the branches and buds that are grafted.

All grafting is done with root stock. It is true roots are not grafted. The upper part is called a scion and does not have a root. The upper part has had its root cut off. So even the Jew has had their root cut off and must be graft into their own Olive Tree identified as Jesus, not Israel in Rom 11. The only human (also God) is called the root (stock) in Rom 11. The Christian abides in and draws (eternal) life from Jesus (Jn 15). The Christian is a fellow citizen with the saints, not Israel (Eph 2). Israel is never referred to as saint(s).

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

1. It is the NEW Jerusalem - that is the home of the saints.
2. As you point out - it is "The house of Israel and the house of Judah" with which the NEW Covenant is made.
3. Romans 2 points to all the saints as "Jews" -- " For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit,"

Romans 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

And the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind" is the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers.

All good news.

Romans 2 is a NO GO when it comes to calling anyone a saint.

bugkiller