(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

bugkiller

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Bugkiller, you were going to explain this:

"No problem. There are clearly three folds in the verse. Do I need to post a word for word literal translation and meanings of each?"

I guess you do need to explain that.

Still waiting.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The second phrase - which are not of this fold indicates there are two folds - one being Israel and another unidentified fold.

The fact that there will be one fold indicates those other sheep have a fold.

One fold does not identify Israel. Both sheep from Israel and the other fold go to another fold called one fold.

There is nothing in the verse indicating the other sheep will be brought into "this fold" (Israel).

This is inline with what Jeremiah said about a completely new covenant.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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Maybe you missed some of the scriptural evidence that Israel is still God's chosen people.

Jer 31:35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever
.”

Given this truth I would understand if you wanted to reconsider your position.
While I am not klutedavid my response is no because I read both the Gospels and Acts.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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I like to take a look at the New Jerusalem, it is quite encouraging!

It is the bride of Messiah!
You would think that with some of the attitudes around here that there would be a ton of Gentiles visable and very few Jews. Is that true though?

Rev 21:9-14 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her brilliance was like a very costly stone, as a stone of crystal-clear jasper. 12 It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east and three gates on the north and three gates on the south and three gates on the west. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Well, the gates are the tribes of Israel! How is anyone getting in without going thru one of the gates? Anyway, the foundation stones are the Apostles.

Hmm, where are the Gentiles!?

Interesting point, yes?!
The gentiles are found right here in the verses not quoted from the same chapter.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This shows us who's name is written in the Book of Life:

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Jn 5

Only those who have eternal life enter the city.

bugkiller
 
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bugkiller

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Could it be that those that believe are counted as Israel?

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Abraham was not counted as Israel.
Why are the 144,000 ALL from the twelve tribes of Israel, and not "Christian" denominations?
Who cares? I have no idea what the point is unless its no gentile can be saved. I find no passage in Scripture so indicating.
Matthew 15:24
But he(Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Then no gentile can be saved. That just does not line up with Scripture, even the words of Jesus.

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bugkiller

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To bear witness to the truth in a deceived world that cannot hear truth.

But that will all change at the appointed time.
But it does not matter according to you.

The Scripture does not say nor imply anywhere one must become a Jew (Israeli). Not one single convert in Acts was made to become an Israelite and conform to the law.

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bugkiller

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And no "gentiles" under the New Covenant in our POV????

No "gentiles" in Romans 2 accounted as Jews-- in your POV??

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.



So then you do claim to be a Jew? Romans 2

A child of the promise ? ... Romans 9

How then do you know that this is not what we also see in Rev 7 - the 144,000???
I am a child of the promise given to Abraham.

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bugkiller

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You are correct on both counts

But no one is talking about an EARTHLY citizenship.


God's New Jerusalem that is to come down from Heaven has 12 gates through which the SPIRITUAL citizens of the Heavenly kingdom will enter through.

None of those gates are for "fleshly gentiles",
Nothing more than an opinion.

bugkiller
 
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Dig4truth

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All grafting is done with root stock. It is true roots are not grafted. The upper part is called a scion and does not have a root. The upper part has had its root cut off. So even the Jew has had their root cut off and must be graft into their own Olive Tree identified as Jesus, not Israel in Rom 11. The only human (also God) is called the root (stock) in Rom 11. The Christian abides in and draws (eternal) life from Jesus (Jn 15). The Christian is a fellow citizen with the saints, not Israel (Eph 2). Israel is never referred to as saint(s).

bugkiller


Well, we're making some progress here;

"So even the Jew has had their root cut off and must be graft into their own Olive Tree identified as Jesus, not Israel in Rom 11."

Baby steps.
 
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Dig4truth

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And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The second phrase - which are not of this fold indicates there are two folds - one being Israel and another unidentified fold.

The fact that there will be one fold indicates those other sheep have a fold.

One fold does not identify Israel. Both sheep from Israel and the other fold go to another fold called one fold.

There is nothing in the verse indicating the other sheep will be brought into "this fold" (Israel).

This is inline with what Jeremiah said about a completely new covenant.

bugkiller


This sounds more like the "Who's on First" routine than theology. It is more suited in a comedy sketch than a serious debate, just my opinion.
 
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Lee Stuvmen

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But it does not matter according to you.

The Scripture does not say nor imply anywhere one must become a Jew (Israeli). Not one single convert in Acts was made to become an Israelite and conform to the law.

bugkiller
Where have I ever condoned keeping Mosaic Law?

God's true children were freed from that curse.

ALL of Mosaic Law was fulfilled by Christ on the cross.


Satan knows that If God's children keep JUST ONE Mosaic Law, they are bound to keep them all, and Christ's grace would be of no effect to them.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


That includes all of the following things that ONLY Mosaic Law calls for;

-Animal Sacrifices
-Circumcision
-Clean / Unclean meat distinction
-Tithe(do you tithe?)
-etc.
 
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Bob S

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Could it be that those that believe are counted as Israel?

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


Why are the 144,000 ALL from the twelve tribes of Israel, and not "Christian" denominations?
Yep, I too will have many questions When I meet my maker. Eternity will be very interesting, will it not?

Why are there no gates for gentiles to the New Jerusalem? If we are able to follow Jesus to the city I am sure we can fly over the wall wouldn't you think? Anything is possible if we believe and follow Jesus.

Matthew 15:24
But he(Jesus) answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
JN1:10-12 10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God.

Matt15:
27 She replied, “That’s true, Lord, but even dogs are allowed to eat the scraps that fall beneath their masters’ table.”


28 “Dear woman,” Jesus said to her, “your faith is great. Your request is granted.” And her daughter was instantly healed.

For some reason Jesus tested the gentile woman with his statement that He was sent but to the house of Israel. He knew that Israel would not accept Him, He was prepared to offer His grace to the dogs of the World.
 
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listed

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This sounds more like the "Who's on First" routine than theology. It is more suited in a comedy sketch than a serious debate, just my opinion.
Now that's a real good debate response. NO comment on the fold. Buggy's explanation must have been right on target.
 
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listed

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Where have I ever condoned keeping Mosaic Law?

God's true children were freed from that curse.

ALL of Mosaic Law was fulfilled by Christ on the cross.


Satan knows that If God's children keep JUST ONE Mosaic Law, they are bound to keep them all, and Christ's grace would be of no effect to them.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


That includes all of the following things that ONLY Mosaic Law calls for;

-Animal Sacrifices
-Circumcision
-Clean / Unclean meat distinction
-Tithe(do you tithe?)
-etc.
But it doesn't matter as you posted.

Besides the rest of the law is in the same category of being done away with. Matthew 5:17-18 says so.
 
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klutedavid

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And no "gentiles" under the New Covenant in our POV????

No "gentiles" in Romans 2 accounted as Jews-- in your POV??

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.



So then you do claim to be a Jew? Romans 2

A child of the promise ? ... Romans 9

How then do you know that this is not what we also see in Rev 7 - the 144,000???
Hello Bob.

If you have Jewish parents then you are Jewish by birth.

I am a Gentile by birth and since there is no Jew or Greek in God's kingdom, then I will never be a Jew. Gentiles are grafted into the root of the olive tree, the word, 'grafted', indicates that Gentiles are from another wild olive tree.

We are a new creation in Christ, the old system of things has passed, there is no longer a Jew or a Gentile in the kingdom of the Son.

Gentiles were never under the letter of the law, hence, they were not required to obey the law. How do we know this to be true? Because Gentiles were not to be circumcised, and the letter of the law demands a physical circumcision.
 
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Lee Stuvmen

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Yep, I too will have many questions When I meet my maker. Eternity will be very interesting, will it not?

Why are there no gates for gentiles to the New Jerusalem? If we are able to follow Jesus to the city I am sure we can fly over the wall wouldn't you think? Anything is possible if we believe and follow Jesus.


IF God's chosen People could fly over the wall, why would there be a gate with an Angel next to it?


Does what is written matter, or what we make up?

Are we dealing with fairy tales or reality?


It is written in New Testament Scripture that the SPIRITUAL House of Israel would be open up for SPIRITUAL inclusion of gentiles.

Thus allowing gentiles to BECOME the SPIRITUAL Seed of Abraham.

In the ENTIRE text of Scripture, God is always referred to as;


The God of Israel.

Matthew 15:31
Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.


Luke 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,


John 1:49
Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.


Acts 10:36
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)


Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:


Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, ofthe tribe of Benjamin.


Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.


Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Revelation 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:




There is too much Scriptural evidence to support gentiles were to be GRAFTED into Israel.

Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches(of Israel) be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree(gentile), wert grafted in among them(Israel), and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree(Israel);



I try not to make it my concern about any worldly religion and what deviation from truth they choose to believe and teach as truth.


According to Scripture;

-God's everlasting covenant(s)[there are several] is, was, and always WILL BE with HIS chosen people; ISRAEL,


According to Scripture;
- WE can be Spiritually included among the remnant of Israel, IF WE;

- keep the commandments of God
,

- and have the testimony of Jesus Christ


Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman(Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.



According to Scripture;
-and thereby enter in through one of the 12 gates of New Jerusalem;


I choose that!
 
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Lee Stuvmen

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But it doesn't matter as you posted.

Besides the rest of the law is in the same category of being done away with. Matthew 5:17-18 says so.


WHEN will it change?


Doesn't the verses you quoted say;

one jot or tittle WILL NOT pass away from the law?



17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.


Obviously you heard this somewhere in the world.

Don't believe it!

Why in Revelation does the Dragon make war against those that KEEP the 10 commandments?



THE REMNANT ARE the remnant, BECAUSE THEY keep the commandments and have the Testimony of Christ.

And it would appear that those with wisdom can easily spot the players on God's team, and the unwitting players on Satan's team.

Just look for the ones who make war on keeping the 10 Commandments.



Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with

the remnant of her seed,

which keep the commandments of God
,

and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 
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BobRyan

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Because the 144,000 are Jewish only, the text is not discussing Gentiles.

And no "gentiles" under the New Covenant in our POV????

No "gentiles" in Romans 2 accounted as Jews-- in your POV??

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

There are two different realms spoken of in the scripture, one is the earthly realm, i.e., physical Israel, the other is in the spiritual realm, a spiritual Israel. These two realms have nothing in common, one was a mere shadow realm, a temporary earthly nation of Israel. The other is the true spiritual reality, a spiritual nation, an eternal kingdom in Christ.

So then you do claim to be a Jew? Romans 2

A child of the promise ? ... Romans 9

How then do you know that this is not what we also see in Rev 7 - the 144,000???

Hello Bob.

If you have Jewish parents then you are Jewish by birth.

True - but in the examples I give above it is gentiles-by-birth that are being called Jews.

I am a Gentile by birth

Then can you see yourself in those verses above?

Gentiles were never under the letter of the law,

It has always been a sin for gentiles to "take God's name in vain" and we both know it.

hence, they were not required to obey the law.

nonsense.

Even in the NT - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

Even in the NT "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

Even in the NT
"8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty" James 2
 
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bugkiller

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IF God's chosen People could fly over the wall, why would there be a gate with an Angel next to it?


Does what is written matter, or what we make up?

Are we dealing with fairy tales or reality?


It is written in New Testament Scripture that the SPIRITUAL House of Israel would be open up for SPIRITUAL inclusion of gentiles.

Thus allowing gentiles to BECOME the SPIRITUAL Seed of Abraham.

In the ENTIRE text of Scripture, God is always referred to as;


The God of Israel.

Matthew 15:31
Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel.


Luke 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,


John 1:49
Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.


Acts 10:36
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)


Acts 13:23
Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:


Romans 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, ofthe tribe of Benjamin.


Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


Revelation 2:14
But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.


Revelation 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.


Revelation 21:12
And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:




There is too much Scriptural evidence to support gentiles were to be GRAFTED into Israel.

Romans 11:17
And if some of the branches(of Israel) be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree(gentile), wert grafted in among them(Israel), and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree(Israel);



I try not to make it my concern about any worldly religion and what deviation from truth they choose to believe and teach as truth.


According to Scripture;

-God's everlasting covenant(s)[there are several] is, was, and always WILL BE with HIS chosen people; ISRAEL,


According to Scripture;
- WE can be Spiritually included among the remnant of Israel, IF WE;

- keep the commandments of God
,

- and have the testimony of Jesus Christ


Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman(Israel), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.



According to Scripture;
-and thereby enter in through one of the 12 gates of New Jerusalem;


I choose that!
There is no Scripture saying gentiles would be graft into Israel. The verse above says "among them." It also says partaketh of the "Root." That matches Jesus being the vine and the believers being the branches found in Jn 10.

bugkiller
 
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