(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[bugkiller]

Hey yeshuaslavejeff !

Sorry, I clarified in another post that anyone can be grafted into Israel and become part of the "new" covenant when it is established which includes Gentile believers.

Could you point that out to me in Romans? It doesn't come to mind off the top of my head. Thanks!

A clear reading of Rom 11 and Eph 2 make it clear a Christian is not part of Israel. The Christian is graft into the Root (Jesus) in Whom we abide and He in us Jn 15. John 10 also makes it clear neither abide in Israel.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Bob S, Basically you are wrong. Basically you are not reading the writings of Paul, John and Peter.
--------------------------------------------------------


See , none of them, not Jesus, and none of the Apostles or disciples who remained faithful to Jesus,
opposed Jesus
nor were they
opposed nor taught contrary to TORAH.

Is the gospel of John Scripture?

Is Romans Scripture?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.


Who is the New Covenant made with Bob? It's in bold and underlined just in case its hard to find.

Also notice that it does NOT say "I will change My Laws", but rather "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts".

Is the Gospel of John true?

Is Acts of the Apostles true?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Jer 31:35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36“If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”


Here's the question for you Bob, has the sun, moon and stars stopped in their fixed order? If so, then I might start taking your position seriously. If they haven't then what you're saying doesn't make any sense biblically. Hold on let me look outside..... Yep, they're still there. Sorry, Israel is still a nation before God and His chosen people.


Psalm 41:13 Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, From everlasting to everlasting. Amen and Amen.

Isa 1:24 Therefore the Lord God of hosts, The Mighty One of Israel, declares, “Ah, I will be relieved of My adversaries And avenge Myself on My foes.

Mat 15:3 So the crowd marveled as they saw the mute speaking, the crippled restored, and the lame walking, and the blind seeing; and they glorified the God of Israel.
Luke 1:68 “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,

Heb 8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people.


God is referenced as being the "God of Israel" around 450 times in the Bible. I think it will take more than someone's opinion to change that fact.

Is the Gospel of Luke true?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Seriously??? Did you miss this verse 33?

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

How did you get "new law" from that? There is no mention of that. God is saying He will write the Law unchanged on our hearts as part of the "new" covenant.

Explain why Jeremiah changes subjects in the same sentence. Verses 31-33 are all the same sentence in the KJV.

Uh, no it's not. God clearly says in verse 31 and again in 33 that He makes His "new" covenant with Israel. How are you getting all mankind from that??? Of course, all mankind is welcome to be grafted into Israel, but that is nothing new. But, to say that the covenant is with all mankind directly contradicts what God says in verses 31 and 33.



Uh, no actually He can't change anything He pleases. Consider Numbers 23:19:

"God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"

What about Gen 6:6?

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Does the statement "God can't change anything" make Jeremiah a false prophet? I think it does. Jeremiah said chadash (khä·däsh') not chadash (khä·dash').

For example, once God decides that pork is unclean and we shouldn't eat it, He doesn't change His mind. He gets it right the first time.

Jesus said: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.
This statement includes all things that enter the mouth. Peter had a vision about all animals both clean and unclean and was told to rise and eat. God did not tell Peter to eat humans. God did say not to call unclean what he called clean in application to all things.

You're assuming that the Law is already written on our hearts, which assumes we are in the "new" covenant right now. Let's test that assumption by looking at what God says about His "new" covenant in Jeremiah 31:34:

No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.

I do not think Bob S believes the law issued at Sinai is written on anyone's heart.

Per God, in His "new" covenant we will no longer teach each other. As I said before, the fact that we are having this discussion, that this website exists, that pastors preach sermons every Sunday, that Bible study groups meet every day of the week around the world proves that we are NOT in the "new" covenant yet. If we're not in the "new" covenant yet, then the Law has not been written on our hearts yet.

Most all pastors teach regulation of the flesh conforming to a social standard. They generally preach neither the law nor the Gospel. They preach, require and practice manipulation.

The same proposal stands:

I'll make you a simple proposal: if you can show me in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") a prophecy that the Messiah will change/alter/add to/remove from the Law, then I will start to consider your view that Jesus changed the Law.

Keep in mind that Deuteronomy 18:15 and Daniel 7:25 make it very clear that Messiah will only teach the Law and the Antichrist will change the Law. Also, Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 28:14, and 13:1-5 show that it is a sin to change the Law and a false prophet is one who teaches different commands (ie: change the Law) - even if they perform signs/miracles.

Jeremiah has been shown and quoted only to be trashed.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Bob, Jeremiah 31 is clearly not supporting what you want it to say. It's astounding to me that you think what you presented are facts. You quoted Jeremiah 31 and then clearly said something different from what you quoted.

It is amazing to me that two natural blood Jews (Paul and James) call the 10 Cs the law by reference and Moses says they are the covenant made with Israel (Deut 4:13) and it is claimed those same 10 Cs are written on the heart. Jeremiah says not according to the covenant they broke. What is written on the heart can not be the 10 Cs.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Please explain what I wrote that was different. Jeremiah wrote that the covenant to come would not be like the old one. The old one used animals to provide the blood that only cleansed externally. the New Covenant used the blood of God to cleanse us internally. Read Heb 9 and especially verse 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

The new covenant is a covenant of eternal inheritance. Please tell me what was the reason for the old covenant? Now you tell me they are the same. OY! brother, are you not on the Beam? You are listening to those who do not know. Why would the writer of Hebrews call the new covenant a better covenant? If it is the same old covenant, given only to Israel, then written in the book of the law and now written on our hearts isn't it still the same old covenant just written in a different place. Just what made it better if it still the same old covenant? What made it superior if it is the same old covenant? Heb 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
.
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.


Do you really "keep" Sabbath? Do you ever really observe the Sabbath? Is 58:13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, Do you ever think about worldly things, have idle conversations, think about what you are going to do after the Sabbath hours or anything that distracts from being Holy? If in fact you do not follow Is 58:13 you are not really keeping Sabbath you are sinning. No one had ever kept Sabbath except Jesus. So brother, how many points will that get you in the Kingdom? I am sorry to break that news to, but you need to know. What we do for the least of our brothers we do for Jesus. If we are to get points that is how we get them. Just think of people like Sister Teresa who dedicated her life to doing good deeds to mankind. she certainly will wear a crown full of diamonds. What will your failure of keeping days get for you?


Heaven and Earth passing is an allegory. Why did you stop there? Read the remainder of Jesus statement: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Did Jesus come and do all He came to do? Did He accomplish fulfilling the law? Fulfill means to bring to an end.

If you believe Jesus didn't do all He came to do the you are under obligation to keep all of Torah, 613 laws because not one jot or one tittle can be removed from Torah until all is accomplished. Now are you so sure you have received the correct information from your previous source?


Jesus was under Torah and was speaking to those under Torah. That was the law under the old covenant. Torah was not yet fulfilled. It was at the Cross where Jesus spilled His blood to ratify the New Covenant of grace to all mankind.


See above concerning teaching the law. Did He change the law? Well, are you wearing your tassels? You have not responded to that question although I have asked that question several times. Jesus said He kept His Father's commands and asks us to keep His commands. What are Jesus commands to us? Did Jesus tell us to keep His Father's commands? Paul says no in Gal 3:19. Have you read that and taken it in to your consideration? Have you read Col 2:16-17, 2Cor 3:7-11
Gal 3:19
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. Why would Paul write that statement if it were not true?
Col 2:
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Why would Paul write that no one is to judge us for not observing old covenant laws?
2Cor3:
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Why would Paul write that we are not under the 10 commandments if we really are under the old covenant?

I pray that my answers to your proposal has been clarified in this post. If not it is because you will not accept the truth from the Holy Writ. You ave a habit of skipping my questions. If we are to have a meaningful debate I need to know our thoughts. If you are not willing to answer my questions then I will consider that you are either incapable or not willing and will stop our discussion. My God bless you always. In Christ, Bob

Just remember that the claim is not one jot or tittle of the law can pass until the earth does while much of the law has actually been changed as you pointed out many times. Interesting, huh? why people do not understand this is a mystery to me. Romans is interesting on the subject.

bugkiller

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Hey yeshuaslavejeff !

Sorry, I clarified in another post that anyone can be grafted into Israel and become part of the "new" covenant when it is established which includes Gentile believers.

Could you point that out to me in Romans? It doesn't come to mind off the top of my head. Thanks!

COOL , GOOD and TRUE,
but we cannot convince the world nor the people of the world.....

 

[bugkiller]

GLORIOUSLY READ ROMANS

Not just [physical] Israel, but Yahweh Wrote TORAH on the hearts of those gentiles upon whom Yahweh Wrote TORAH also!
And
Yahweh Says THEY (gentile without TORAH)
ARE JUSTIFIED
BY DOING TORAH, showing thus that TORAH is written on their hearts also (NOT just on Jewish hearts).

Then why were the Pharisees upset about gentiles not observing the law in Acts 15?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, there is , by association if nothing else, .....

Such as....

Nothing even in the OT indicates that.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Until you read the actual Law of God that Jeremiah was talking about when he wrote that text about the New Covenant saying "I will write My LAW on their heart and mind". Jer 31:31-33

Why is it insisted Jeremiah changed subjects mid sentence?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

"Follow Jesus"
Whatever YHWH the Father says to do, do.

So why is it the law is being demanded to being kept (followed)?

bugkiller

 

[Dig4truth]

Is the Gospel of John true?
Is Acts of the Apostles true?
bugkiller

Is Jeremiah true?

 

[bugkiller]

For the same reason I have given the 27 other times you ask that question. Because Hebrews 10 points to the fact that the animal sacrifices were ended at the cross 'he takes away the first to establish the second' ... and in Hebrews 7 the levitical priesthood ended at the cross.

But not a jot or tittle of the law can pass until heaven and earth do, remember?

And there is no means given in Lev 23 for observing Passover without animal sacrifice.

Evidence enough for me the law cannot be kept.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Is Jeremiah true?

Yep. Why is what Jeremiah said being denied?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

There are many ways that Satan accomplishes destroying God's People.

As a former Adventist, I would bet you are more familiar with Scripture than most.

What caused you to leave the church?

Is it not evident he does not believe what they teach? That should be reason enough.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Did not some number of gentiles seeking YHWH join themselves to YHWH'S people by/in line with /YHWH'S Instructions/ TORAH ?

Need something much more clear than what is offered.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Yes, ALL SCRIPTURE;

every word

including Mosaic Law and the TESTIMONY of Christ.

So what is WRITTEN in Scripture?



I would be very interested if there is something I have missed.


So THROUGH SCRIPTURE ONLY,

can you show me

where IN SCRIPTURE IT IT WRITTEN

that Mosaic Law can be PARTIALLY observed??

Thank you!

Great question.

bugkiller

 

[Dig4truth]

A clear reading of Rom 11 and Eph 2 make it clear a Christian is not part of Israel. The Christian is graft into the Root (Jesus) in Whom we abide and He in us Jn 15. John 10 also makes it clear neither abide in Israel.

bugkiller

How many "chosen" people groups does God have? How many "flocks"?

If your answer is more than one you will need to support that with Scripture.

We know that Israel is chosen from all the nations on earth. We also know that the New Covenant is made with Israel. We know that Gentiles are grafted into "Israel's own olive tree". We know that Gentiles are "included into the commonwealth of Israel" thru Messiah Yeshua.
We know that God has made "both groups into one" thru Messiah Yeshua.

 

[bugkiller]

I know this is an old post, but I'm curious: given your interpretation of Acts 15, what is your interpretation of the rest of the decision of the "Jerusalem Council" as stated in Acts 15:21? Many people think the decision of abstaining from those four things in 15:20 was all there was to the council's decision, but it continues in 15:21.

Acts 15:21
"for (because) Moses (the Law) has had throughout many generations those who preach him (the Law) in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.

I do not understand why this verse is taken as a command, when it is clearly a historical statement.

Additionally, it greatly helps our understanding of Acts 15 if we also understand the basics of the Law (Torah) and Pharisee beliefs. Consider that Deuteronomy 30:11 and 1 John 5:3 both say that the Law is not burdensome/difficult. Yet, in Acts 15:10 Peter says "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?". So, Moses (prophesying by the Holy Spirit) and John say the Law is NOT burdensome, but Peter is saying it is burdensome? That seeming disagreement should be a red flag that the topic of Acts 15 is NOT the Mosaic Law. The topic is instead Talmudic tradition (Jewish tradition that was added to the Law).

Verse 15 says circumcision and the law of Moses. Neither are the Talmud.

Please read the attached short pdf of my research on the background of Acts 15. You'll be surprised at how just a little knowledge of 1) the Law and 2) Jewish history will give new light to Acts 15 and the rest of the Bible!

Why should we go to some other place? Why can you not make your statement here?

bugkiller