(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[Dig4truth]

I didn't deal with your verses because you used your thoughts or the thoughts of others to add to what was written in Acts15. That is speculation I deal with reality and the verses I posted are reality. We are not under Torah period


I am glad to read your thoughts.


And that is the truth, God is eternally righteous and the Torah was the truth given only to the Israelites and it was not given for their salvation. It was given for there well being for as long as they were a nation. Salvation has never been by any laws. Abraham was not saved by keeping laws. If we could pull ourselves up by our own boot straps there would be no need of a Savior. God gave Israel laws that He has never imposed on any other nation. Those laws lasted until Calvary whn Jesus gave His own blood to ratify the new covenant of grace. Christians are to live by the new covenant not the one that ended at the Cross.


It seems that James didn't understand Paul either. James wrote that faith without works is dead Paul wrote that we are saved by faith and not by works. Somehow they were not hearing what is the truth. We are not saved by keeping the law. Paul was correct. James is also correct. James was referring to good works (good deeds). Works of the law and works of good deeds are two different animals.


I really do not know how to take that statement. Are you referring to me or yourself?



Oh come on brother. We are not to add or take away. Jesus is God and He even told us He was giving us a new commandment. He added to the law in Matt 5. If you are going to take that stand then I really have no more to say to you.

.
Would you care to wager on your statement?


How about quoting the rest of Jeremiah concerning the new covenant. Was the writer of Hebrews wrong when he wrote:
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said

“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them,
declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.





Why did Jesus tell His deciples to go into all the World.... Why did He tell us to come unto Him for Rest? Israel is defunct. We all come to Jesus the same way and we ar all part of His kingdom

And that is just what He did. Did you ever hear of the law of love. Is the law that is within your heart telling you to wear tassels or keep the feast days? Is it urging people to go to church on Sabbath?


Everyone has opinions. I don't care to speculate. I enjoy hearing the truth spoken, And the Holy Spirit tells me when it isn't.

Then I suggest that you bone up on the 613 laws of Torah. Rebuild the Temple and find some Levites to run the thing. Oh and don't forget to wear those tassels and refrain from cutting those sideburns.


Then why are you insisting that we are still under Torah which was never ever meant to be a salvational set of laws?

Thanks for your recommendation. Just maybe you are not correct and just maybe you should consider some of the things I have tried to help you understand. I am an avid reader of the law given to Israel and Israel only. And I am an avid reader of the New Testament writers. When Paul tells me the law(Torah) was until Christ I believe Him and do not try to twist His words. When John tells me that I am right with God by believing and loving I do not try to twist that into meaning that we are under obligation to keep Torah. In Christ, Bob

If Israel is defunct as you say, then there is NO New Covenant because it was made with Israel and Judah.

Also, please defend your statement with Scripture, against Scripture that contradicts you.

Jer 31:35Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36“If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37Thus says the LORD,
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.


Take note that this is what follows the description of the New Covenant!!!

Your answer?

 

[Bob S]

I'll make you a simple proposal: if you can show me in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") a prophecy that the Messiah will change/alter/add to/remove from the Law, then I will start to consider your view that Jesus changed the Law.

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

It will not be like the covenant God gave to Israel and as we see our covenant is nothing like the covenant Israel lived under. Our covenant is a better covenant with better promises. Our covenant is to all mankind, so you see God did change His laws as He indicated in Jeremiah He would. His new law is written on our hearts. I have a few questions for you. Before someone ever introduced the seventh day to you was law that is written on our hearts ever prompting you or telling you you should keep the Sabbath holy? Even after reading the 10 commandments were you persuaded to observe a day? Or was it some person or some meeting that persuaded you to start observing a day or days? For me it was the later. My wife was the same. It was not until some wel meaning people from the SDA church started a Bible study with us that we ever considered Sabbath observance.. If it was one of the laws of the Torah wouldn't you think the Holy Spirit would convict us before someone planted the seed? Have you ever been convicted to wear tassels on you clothing like the law says?

Keep in mind that Deuteronomy 18:15 and Daniel 7:25 make it very clear that Messiah will only teach the Law and the Antichrist will change the Law. Also, Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 28:14, and 13:1-5 show that it is a sin to change the Law and a false prophet is one who teaches different commands (ie: change the Law) - even if they perform signs/miracles.

Not to put you down, but I see that you are not really a student of the covenants. God can change anything He pleases. We are not to question what He changed. He has had different laws for different people through the ages. Noah was given anything that pleased him for food. Israel was constrained from eating some of the things that Noah was allowed to eat. Some in history like Abraham could have many wives. He and David had concubines and it was not considered adultery. Christians are to have one wife until death do us part. Different laws for different People and we are all God's children. Think about itmy friend. In Christ, Bob

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Keep in mind that Deuteronomy 18:15 and Daniel 7:25 make it very clear that Messiah will only teach the Law and the Antichrist will change the Law.

Well, basically yes,
that's what the Bible says....
hey!
that's what happened !

 

[Bob S]

If Israel is defunct as you say, then there is NO New Covenant because it was made with Israel and Judah.

Sorry my friend, but what happened to the nation of Israel in AD70? Jews were dispersedmall over the World. There was no Israel and for you to try to tie the 1948 revelation to being old Israel restored is a stretch. All the people that have lived since the nation of Israel ceased to be could not be part of Israel as you indicate.

Also, please defend your statement with Scripture, against Scripture that contradicts you.

It is your to defend my friend. Where does scripture contradict the end of Israel?

Jer 31:35Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36“If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37Thus says the LORD,
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.


Take note that this is what follows the description of the New Covenant!!!

Your answer?

What do you think Israel did? Do you think they were a model nation. They destroyed their way of life over and over. They were a wicked people that cared not for anyone. God in His great love turned His cheek many times and restored them only to see the same pattern happen again and again.

Thanks, your posting that scripture only fortifies my stand. He did cast off Israel when He allowed the Temple to be destroyed and Jews scattered all over the World. Actually He ceased their being a nation when He sent His Son to die for them and us. Jesus fulfilled Torah, the law He lived under. Fulfill means to bring to an end. Jesus last words to man before He died on the Cross was "it is finished". He finished all He came to do. Torah ended at the Cross Gal 3:19. Why would Jesus call it a new covenant if it was the old one warmed over?

 

[Bob S]

Well, basically yes,
that's what the Bible says....
hey!
that's what happened !

Okay why even include the New Testament (covenant). Why even include Jesus statement that He gave us a NEW commandment and the verse that says He kept Torah and asks us to keep the law of love. Basically you are wrong. Basically you are not reading the writings of Paul, John and Peter.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Bob S, Basically you are wrong. Basically you are not reading the writings of Paul, John and Peter.
--------------------------------------------------------


See , none of them, not Jesus, and none of the Apostles or disciples who remained faithful to Jesus,
opposed Jesus
nor were they
opposed nor taught contrary to TORAH.

 

[Dig4truth]

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

It will not be like the covenant God gave to Israel and as we see our covenant is nothing like the covenant Israel lived under. Our covenant is a better covenant with better promises. Our covenant is to all mankind, so you see God did change His laws as He indicated in Jeremiah He would. His new law is written on our hearts. I have a few questions for you. Before someone ever introduced the seventh day to you was law that is written on our hearts ever prompting you or telling you you should keep the Sabbath holy? Even after reading the 10 commandments were you persuaded to observe a day? Or was it some person or some meeting that persuaded you to start observing a day or days? For me it was the later. My wife was the same. It was not until some wel meaning people from the SDA church started a Bible study with us that we ever considered Sabbath observance.. If it was one of the laws of the Torah wouldn't you think the Holy Spirit would convict us before someone planted the seed? Have you ever been convicted to wear tassels on you clothing like the law says?

Not to put you down, but I see that you are not really a student of the covenants. God can change anything He pleases. We are not to question what He changed. He has had different laws for different people through the ages. Noah was given anything that pleased him for food. Israel was constrained from eating some of the things that Noah was allowed to eat. Some in history like Abraham could have many wives. He and David had concubines and it was not considered adultery. Christians are to have one wife until death do us part. Different laws for different People and we are all God's children. Think about itmy friend. In Christ, Bob

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.


Who is the New Covenant made with Bob? It's in bold and underlined just in case its hard to find.

Also notice that it does NOT say "I will change My Laws", but rather "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts".

 

[Dig4truth]

Sorry my friend, but what happened to the nation of Israel in AD70? Jews were dispersedmall over the World. There was no Israel and for you to try to tie the 1948 revelation to being old Israel restored is a stretch. All the people that have lived since the nation of Israel ceased to be could not be part of Israel as you indicate.


It is your to defend my friend. Where does scripture contradict the end of Israel?


What do you think Israel did? Do you think they were a model nation. They destroyed their way of life over and over. They were a wicked people that cared not for anyone. God in His great love turned His cheek many times and restored them only to see the same pattern happen again and again.

Thanks, your posting that scripture only fortifies my stand. He did cast off Israel when He allowed the Temple to be destroyed and Jews scattered all over the World. Actually He ceased their being a nation when He sent His Son to die for them and us. Jesus fulfilled Torah, the law He lived under. Fulfill means to bring to an end. Jesus last words to man before He died on the Cross was "it is finished". He finished all He came to do. Torah ended at the Cross Gal 3:19. Why would Jesus call it a new covenant if it was the old one warmed over?

Jer 31:35 Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36“If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”


Here's the question for you Bob, has the sun, moon and stars stopped in their fixed order? If so, then I might start taking your position seriously. If they haven't then what you're saying doesn't make any sense biblically. Hold on let me look outside..... Yep, they're still there. Sorry, Israel is still a nation before God and His chosen people.


Psalm 41:13 Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, From everlasting to everlasting. Amen and Amen.

Isa 1:24 Therefore the Lord God of hosts, The Mighty One of Israel, declares, “Ah, I will be relieved of My adversaries And avenge Myself on My foes.

Mat 15:3 So the crowd marveled as they saw the mute speaking, the crippled restored, and the lame walking, and the blind seeing; and they glorified the God of Israel.
Luke 1:68 “Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,

Heb 8:10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel After those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And I will write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people.


God is referenced as being the "God of Israel" around 450 times in the Bible. I think it will take more than someone's opinion to change that fact.

 

[christopheralan88]

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,
declares the Lord.
33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

It will not be like the covenant God gave to Israel and as we see our covenant is nothing like the covenant Israel lived under. Our covenant is a better covenant with better promises. Our covenant is to all mankind, so you see God did change His laws as He indicated in Jeremiah He would. His new law is written on our hearts. I have a few questions for you. Before someone ever introduced the seventh day to you was law that is written on our hearts ever prompting you or telling you you should keep the Sabbath holy? Even after reading the 10 commandments were you persuaded to observe a day? Or was it some person or some meeting that persuaded you to start observing a day or days? For me it was the later. My wife was the same. It was not until some wel meaning people from the SDA church started a Bible study with us that we ever considered Sabbath observance.. If it was one of the laws of the Torah wouldn't you think the Holy Spirit would convict us before someone planted the seed? Have you ever been convicted to wear tassels on you clothing like the law says?

Not to put you down, but I see that you are not really a student of the covenants. God can change anything He pleases. We are not to question what He changed. He has had different laws for different people through the ages. Noah was given anything that pleased him for food. Israel was constrained from eating some of the things that Noah was allowed to eat. Some in history like Abraham could have many wives. He and David had concubines and it was not considered adultery. Christians are to have one wife until death do us part. Different laws for different People and we are all God's children. Think about itmy friend. In Christ, Bob

His new law is written on our hearts

Seriously??? Did you miss this verse 33?

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

How did you get "new law" from that? There is no mention of that. God is saying He will write the Law unchanged on our hearts as part of the "new" covenant.

Our covenant is to all mankind

Uh, no it's not. God clearly says in verse 31 and again in 33 that He makes His "new" covenant with Israel. How are you getting all mankind from that??? Of course, all mankind is welcome to be grafted into Israel, but that is nothing new. But, to say that the covenant is with all mankind directly contradicts what God says in verses 31 and 33.

Not to put you down, but I see that you are not really a student of the covenants. God can change anything He pleases.

Uh, no actually He can't change anything He pleases. Consider Numbers 23:19:

"God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"

For example, once God decides that pork is unclean and we shouldn't eat it, He doesn't change His mind. He gets it right the first time.

Before someone ever introduced the seventh day to you was law that is written on our hearts ever prompting you or telling you you should keep the Sabbath holy?

You're assuming that the Law is already written on our hearts, which assumes we are in the "new" covenant right now. Let's test that assumption by looking at what God says about His "new" covenant in Jeremiah 31:34:

No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.

Per God, in His "new" covenant we will no longer teach each other. As I said before, the fact that we are having this discussion, that this website exists, that pastors preach sermons every Sunday, that Bible study groups meet every day of the week around the world proves that we are NOT in the "new" covenant yet. If we're not in the "new" covenant yet, then the Law has not been written on our hearts yet.

The same proposal stands:

I'll make you a simple proposal: if you can show me in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") a prophecy that the Messiah will change/alter/add to/remove from the Law, then I will start to consider your view that Jesus changed the Law.

Keep in mind that Deuteronomy 18:15 and Daniel 7:25 make it very clear that Messiah will only teach the Law and the Antichrist will change the Law. Also, Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 28:14, and 13:1-5 show that it is a sin to change the Law and a false prophet is one who teaches different commands (ie: change the Law) - even if they perform signs/miracles.

 

[Dig4truth]

"He gets it right the first time", that's a classic Christopher!
Great post!

 

[Bob S]

Seriously??? Did you miss this verse 33?

33 “This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.

How did you get "new law" from that? There is no mention of that. God is saying He will write the Law unchanged on our hearts as part of the "new" covenant.



Uh, no it's not. God clearly says in verse 31 and again in 33 that He makes His "new" covenant with Israel. How are you getting all mankind from that??? Of course, all mankind is welcome to be grafted into Israel, but that is nothing new. But, to say that the covenant is with all mankind directly contradicts what God says in verses 31 and 33.



Uh, no actually He can't change anything He pleases. Consider Numbers 23:19:

"God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?"

For example, once God decides that pork is unclean and we shouldn't eat it, He doesn't change His mind. He gets it right the first time.



You're assuming that the Law is already written on our hearts, which assumes we are in the "new" covenant right now. Let's test that assumption by looking at what God says about His "new" covenant in Jeremiah 31:34:

No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.

Per God, in His "new" covenant we will no longer teach each other. As I said before, the fact that we are having this discussion, that this website exists, that pastors preach sermons every Sunday, that Bible study groups meet every day of the week around the world proves that we are NOT in the "new" covenant yet. If we're not in the "new" covenant yet, then the Law has not been written on our hearts yet.

The same proposal stands:

I'll make you a simple proposal: if you can show me in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") a prophecy that the Messiah will change/alter/add to/remove from the Law, then I will start to consider your view that Jesus changed the Law.

Keep in mind that Deuteronomy 18:15 and Daniel 7:25 make it very clear that Messiah will only teach the Law and the Antichrist will change the Law. Also, Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 28:14, and 13:1-5 show that it is a sin to change the Law and a false prophet is one who teaches different commands (ie: change the Law) - even if they perform signs/miracles.

Do what you have to do. I showed you in Jer 31 where God said the New Covenant would not be like the old one and you deny God's Word. I am sorry I cannot get you to drink from the living water. Your mind was made up before I presented the facts to you. Are you trying to make Sabbath observance salvational? If not then choose the day you want, but if you are trying to tell us keeping Sabbath means our salvation then you are breaking the rules of this forum and spreading falsehood.

 

[christopheralan88]

Bob, Jeremiah 31 is clearly not supporting what you want it to say. It's astounding to me that you think what you presented are facts. You quoted Jeremiah 31 and then clearly said something different from what you quoted.

No, observing the Law does not affect your salvation, it affects your rank in the Kingdom to come. Consider Matthew 5:18-19:

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away (which doesn't happen until Revelation 21:1), one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Notice how both of these parties are in the Kingdom, but their rank as the least or greatest is based on whether they did and taught Jesus' commands. Where we differ is what Jesus' commands are....I say He only taught the Law...you say He changed the Law.

The same proposal stands:

I'll make you a simple proposal: if you can show me in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") a prophecy that the Messiah will change/alter/add to/remove from the Law, then I will start to consider your view that Jesus changed the Law.

Keep in mind that Deuteronomy 18:15 and Daniel 7:25 make it very clear that Messiah will only teach the Law and the Antichrist will change the Law. Also, Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 28:14, and 13:1-5 show that it is a sin to change the Law and a false prophet is one who teaches different commands (ie: change the Law) - even if they perform signs/miracles.

 

[Bob S]

Bob, Jeremiah 31 is clearly not supporting what you want it to say. It's astounding to me that you think what you presented are facts. You quoted Jeremiah 31 and then clearly said something different from what you quoted

Please explain what I wrote that was different. Jeremiah wrote that the covenant to come would not be like the old one. The old one used animals to provide the blood that only cleansed externally. the New Covenant used the blood of God to cleanse us internally. Read Heb 9 and especially verse 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

The new covenant is a covenant of eternal inheritance. Please tell me what was the reason for the old covenant? Now you tell me they are the same. OY! brother, are you not on the Beam? You are listening to those who do not know. Why would the writer of Hebrews call the new covenant a better covenant? If it is the same old covenant, given only to Israel, then written in the book of the law and now written on our hearts isn't it still the same old covenant just written in a different place. Just what made it better if it still the same old covenant? What made it superior if it is the same old covenant? Heb 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
.
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

No, observing the Law does not affect your salvation, it affects your rank in the Kingdom to come. Consider Matthew 5:18-19:

Do you really "keep" Sabbath? Do you ever really observe the Sabbath? Is 58:13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, Do you ever think about worldly things, have idle conversations, think about what you are going to do after the Sabbath hours or anything that distracts from being Holy? If in fact you do not follow Is 58:13 you are not really keeping Sabbath you are sinning. No one had ever kept Sabbath except Jesus. So brother, how many points will that get you in the Kingdom? I am sorry to break that news to, but you need to know. What we do for the least of our brothers we do for Jesus. If we are to get points that is how we get them. Just think of people like Sister Teresa who dedicated her life to doing good deeds to mankind. she certainly will wear a crown full of diamonds. What will your failure of keeping days get for you?

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away (which doesn't happen until Revelation 21:1), one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Heaven and Earth passing is an allegory. Why did you stop there? Read the remainder of Jesus statement: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Did Jesus come and do all He came to do? Did He accomplish fulfilling the law? Fulfill means to bring to an end.

If you believe Jesus didn't do all He came to do the you are under obligation to keep all of Torah, 613 laws because not one jot or one tittle can be removed from Torah until all is accomplished. Now are you so sure you have received the correct information from your previous source?

Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus was under Torah and was speaking to those under Torah. That was the law under the old covenant. Torah was not yet fulfilled. It was at the Cross where Jesus spilled His blood to ratify the New Covenant of grace to all mankind.

Notice how both of these parties are in the Kingdom, but their rank as the least or greatest is based on whether they did and taught Jesus' commands. Where we differ is what Jesus' commands are....I say He only taught the Law...you say He changed the Law.

See above concerning teaching the law. Did He change the law? Well, are you wearing your tassels? You have not responded to that question although I have asked that question several times. Jesus said He kept His Father's commands and asks us to keep His commands. What are Jesus commands to us? Did Jesus tell us to keep His Father's commands? Paul says no in Gal 3:19. Have you read that and taken it in to your consideration? Have you read Col 2:16-17, 2Cor 3:7-11
Gal 3:19
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. Why would Paul write that statement if it were not true?
Col 2:
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Why would Paul write that no one is to judge us for not observing old covenant laws?
2Cor3:
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Why would Paul write that we are not under the 10 commandments if we really are under the old covenant?

The same proposal stands:

I'll make you a simple proposal: if you can show me in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") a prophecy that the Messiah will change/alter/add to/remove from the Law, then I will start to consider your view that Jesus changed the Law.

I pray that my answers to your proposal has been clarified in this post. If not it is because you will not accept the truth from the Holy Writ. You ave a habit of skipping my questions. If we are to have a meaningful debate I need to know our thoughts. If you are not willing to answer my questions then I will consider that you are either incapable or not willing and will stop our discussion. My God bless you always. In Christ, Bob

 

[christopheralan88]

Please explain what I wrote that was different. Jeremiah wrote that the covenant to come would not be like the old one. The old one used animals to provide the blood that only cleansed externally. the New Covenant used the blood of God to cleanse us internally. Read Heb 9 and especially verse 15 For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

The new covenant is a covenant of eternal inheritance. Please tell me what was the reason for the old covenant? Now you tell me they are the same. OY! brother, are you not on the Beam? You are listening to those who do not know. Why would the writer of Hebrews call the new covenant a better covenant? If it is the same old covenant, given only to Israel, then written in the book of the law and now written on our hearts isn't it still the same old covenant just written in a different place. Just what made it better if it still the same old covenant? What made it superior if it is the same old covenant? Heb 8:6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. 7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.
.
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.


Do you really "keep" Sabbath? Do you ever really observe the Sabbath? Is 58:13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, Do you ever think about worldly things, have idle conversations, think about what you are going to do after the Sabbath hours or anything that distracts from being Holy? If in fact you do not follow Is 58:13 you are not really keeping Sabbath you are sinning. No one had ever kept Sabbath except Jesus. So brother, how many points will that get you in the Kingdom? I am sorry to break that news to, but you need to know. What we do for the least of our brothers we do for Jesus. If we are to get points that is how we get them. Just think of people like Sister Teresa who dedicated her life to doing good deeds to mankind. she certainly will wear a crown full of diamonds. What will your failure of keeping days get for you?


Heaven and Earth passing is an allegory. Why did you stop there? Read the remainder of Jesus statement: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Did Jesus come and do all He came to do? Did He accomplish fulfilling the law? Fulfill means to bring to an end.

If you believe Jesus didn't do all He came to do the you are under obligation to keep all of Torah, 613 laws because not one jot or one tittle can be removed from Torah until all is accomplished. Now are you so sure you have received the correct information from your previous source?


Jesus was under Torah and was speaking to those under Torah. That was the law under the old covenant. Torah was not yet fulfilled. It was at the Cross where Jesus spilled His blood to ratify the New Covenant of grace to all mankind.


See above concerning teaching the law. Did He change the law? Well, are you wearing your tassels? You have not responded to that question although I have asked that question several times. Jesus said He kept His Father's commands and asks us to keep His commands. What are Jesus commands to us? Did Jesus tell us to keep His Father's commands? Paul says no in Gal 3:19. Have you read that and taken it in to your consideration? Have you read Col 2:16-17, 2Cor 3:7-11
Gal 3:19
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. Why would Paul write that statement if it were not true?
Col 2:
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Why would Paul write that no one is to judge us for not observing old covenant laws?
2Cor3:
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Why would Paul write that we are not under the 10 commandments if we really are under the old covenant?

I pray that my answers to your proposal has been clarified in this post. If not it is because you will not accept the truth from the Holy Writ. You ave a habit of skipping my questions. If we are to have a meaningful debate I need to know our thoughts. If you are not willing to answer my questions then I will consider that you are either incapable or not willing and will stop our discussion. My God bless you always. In Christ, Bob

Please explain what I wrote that was different.

Did you not read my response? I detailed very clearly how you said that we have a new Law in the "new" covenant, yet God makes no mention of "new Law" in Jeremiah 31 - He says He will write His Law on our hearts - as in Genesis through Deuteronomy Law. Also, you said the "new" covenant is with all mankind, when God says twice in Jeremiah 31 that He makes His "new" covenant with Israel. Please read my response again.

Why would the writer of Hebrews call the new covenant a better covenant? If it is the same old covenant, given only to Israel, then written in the book of the law and now written on our hearts isn't it still the same old covenant just written in a different place.

Exactly, you're correct. Because the original covenant detailed in Genesis 17 is called an "everlasting" covenant in Genesis 17:7. You can't change or do away with an everlasting covenant and per Numbers 23:19 God doesn't change His mind. You are indeed correct that the difference between the "new" covenant and the original covenant is just that the Law will be written on our hearts. That's what makes it better. The terms of the original covenant are still the same. The only thing that has changed is how the Law is communicated to us - instead of via written or verbal words, it is written on our hearts/minds.

Also, here in lies the problem with your thought process: you read the last 1/3rd of the Bible (the "New Testament") and interpret the first 2/3rds of the Bible through your unrooted interpretation of the last 1/3rd. Hebrews should have nothing to do with understanding the covenant described in Jeremiah 31. The covenant in Jeremiah 31 is very concise and clear. You are misunderstanding Hebrews because you refuse to let Jeremiah (and the rest of the Tanakh) give you context for Hebrews. Instead you let Hebrews give context to Jeremiah and the Tanakh.

Heaven and Earth passing is an allegory. Why did you stop there? Read the remainder of Jesus statement: 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Did Jesus come and do all He came to do? Did He accomplish fulfilling the law? Fulfill means to bring to an end.

Of course you have to make heaven and earth passing away allegorical/metaphorical, because without that you can't make Matthew 5:17-19 fit your beliefs that the Law is done away/changed. But given your interpretation that heaven and earth passing away is allegorical/metaphorical, are they passing away a second time in Revelation 21:1??? Were things not accomplished, so they need to pass away a second time?

Well, are you wearing your tassels? You have not responded to that question although I have asked that question several times.

I haven't answered this question because it's irrelevant to the proposal I made to you, which is to find me a place in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") that shows the Messiah will change the Law. Me wearing tassels/tzit tzits has nothing to do with that proposal. But, if you must know - yes, I do wear tzit tzits as God/Jesus commanded in Numbers 15.

These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

You said You prefer the NIV and this is a famous NIV translation of this verse. Take a look at this verse as translated in other Bible translations per this link below. As you read all the translations of this verse, notice how the vast majority phrase this verse in the future tense - something like "these are shadows of things YET TO COME (as in the they are not done away with presently). This is the danger of relying on any one translation too heavily - especially the NIV. I would recommend you read multiple translations, especially on passages of Scripture that you are basing your beliefs heavily on.

Colossians 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Do you really "keep" Sabbath? Do you ever really observe the Sabbath? Is 58:13 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight
and the Lord’s holy day honorable,
and if you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, Do you ever think about worldly things, have idle conversations, think about what you are going to do after the Sabbath hours or anything that distracts from being Holy? If in fact you do not follow Is 58:13 you are not really keeping Sabbath you are sinning. No one had ever kept Sabbath except Jesus. So brother, how many points will that get you in the Kingdom? I am sorry to break that news to, but you need to know. What we do for the least of our brothers we do for Jesus. If we are to get points that is how we get them. Just think of people like Sister Teresa who dedicated her life to doing good deeds to mankind. she certainly will wear a crown full of diamonds. What will your failure of keeping days get for you?

I don't understand why you're bringing this up, because it has nothing to do with showing me prophecy that they Messiah will change the Law. But, if you must go down this road, I'll say that Isaiah is not the Law. Isaiah, in order to be a true prophet, could not be adding to/removing from the Law. So, whatever God instructed us to do on the Sabbath should be the lens by which we understand Isaiah 58:12-14.

That said, God said in the Law that we are to rest on the Sabath as He rested. It is His desire/will for us to rest on the Sabbath. Below is a link to the Hebrew word "chephets" which is translated to "pleasure" or "desire" in Isaiah 58:13. Isaiah 58:13 is saying that we should turn away from doing our desire on the Sabbath and do God's desire. Again, God's desire is for us to rest. I try my best to rest, both physically and mentally on the Sabbath.

You say that no one has ever kept the Sabbath. Yet you have Deuteronomy 30:11 saying that God's Law is not too difficult for us or beyond our reach. I am fully capable of resting on the Sabbath day and do my best to do so.

But, again, whether I keep the Sabbath correctly or not has nothing to do with my proposal. I asked that you give me a place in the Tanakh that says the Messiah will change the Law.

Gal 3:19
19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. Why would Paul write that statement if it were not true?
Col 2:
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Why would Paul write that no one is to judge us for not observing old covenant laws?
2Cor3:
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Why would Paul write that we are not under the 10 commandments if we really are under the old covenant?

Please read 2 Peter 3:15-17. Peter says that Paul is difficult to understand and those who are ignorant/unlearned and unrooted/unstable misunderstand him to be teaching lawlessness (that the Law is done away with). The Bible builds on itself. The Law is the foundation. The Prophets, in order to be true prophets, must be in agreement (not add to/remove from) with the Law (Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 28:14, and 13:1-5). The "New Testament" must be in agreement with the Law and Prophets to be true. Instead, you are doing the opposite and reading the "New Testament", severing it from it's foundation (the Tanakh) and making the Tanakh fit your unrooted/unstable interpretation of the "New Testament". A good test that your beliefs are true would be to support them with only the Law and Prophets and not lean on any "New Testament" passages. This is what the Bereans would have done, since there was no "New Testament" writings at the time. The Bereans would have supported their belief that Jesus is Messiah with only the Law and Prophets (Tanakh) - with the Law being the foundation for the Prophets.

Below is my proposal again, but I'll ask if you have any other "examples" of prophecy that the Messiah will change the Law? By the way, it's interesting to me that Jeremiah 31 doesn't even mention an individual - like the prophet like unto Moses or Antichrist that is mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:15 and Daniel 7:25 . Maybe that's because Jeremiah 31 isn't a prophecy about Messiah...

I'll make you a simple proposal: if you can show me in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") a prophecy that the Messiah will change/alter/add to/remove from the Law, then I will start to consider your view that Jesus changed the Law.

Keep in mind that Deuteronomy 18:15 and Daniel 7:25 make it very clear that Messiah will only teach the Law and the Antichrist will change the Law. Also, Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 28:14, and 13:1-5 show that it is a sin to change the Law and a false prophet is one who teaches different commands (ie: change the Law) - even if they perform signs/miracles.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

He says He will write His Law on our hearts - as in Genesis through Deuteronomy Law. Also, you said the "new" covenant is with all mankind, when God says twice in Jeremiah 31 that He makes His "new" covenant with Israel. Please read my response again.

GLORIOUSLY READ ROMANS

Not just [physical] Israel, but Yahweh Wrote TORAH on the hearts of those gentiles upon whom Yahweh Wrote TORAH also!
And
Yahweh Says THEY (gentile without TORAH)
ARE JUSTIFIED
BY DOING TORAH, showing thus that TORAH is written on their hearts also (NOT just on Jewish hearts).

 

[Dig4truth]

Did you not read my response? I detailed very clearly how you said that we have a new Law in the "new" covenant, yet God makes no mention of "new Law" in Jeremiah 31 - He says He will write His Law on our hearts - as in Genesis through Deuteronomy Law. Also, you said the "new" covenant is with all mankind, when God says twice in Jeremiah 31 that He makes His "new" covenant with Israel. Please read my response again.



Exactly, you're correct. Because the original covenant detailed in Genesis 17 is called an "everlasting" covenant in Genesis 17:7. You can't change or do away with an everlasting covenant and per Numbers 23:19 God doesn't change His mind. You are indeed correct that the difference between the "new" covenant and the original covenant is just that the Law will be written on our hearts. That's what makes it better. The terms of the original covenant are still the same. The only thing that has changed is how the Law is communicated to us - instead of via written or verbal words, it is written on our hearts/minds.

Also, here in lies the problem with your thought process: you read the last 1/3rd of the Bible (the "New Testament") and interpret the first 2/3rds of the Bible through your unrooted interpretation of the last 1/3rd. Hebrews should have nothing to do with understanding the covenant described in Jeremiah 31. The covenant in Jeremiah 31 is very concise and clear. You are misunderstanding Hebrews because you refuse to let Jeremiah (and the rest of the Tanakh) give you context for Hebrews. Instead you let Hebrews give context to Jeremiah and the Tanakh.



Of course you have to make heaven and earth passing away allegorical/metaphorical, because without that you can't make Matthew 5:17-19 fit your beliefs that the Law is done away/changed. But given your interpretation that heaven and earth passing away is allegorical/metaphorical, are they passing away a second time in Revelation 21:1??? Were things not accomplished, so they need to pass away a second time?



I haven't answered this question because it's irrelevant to the proposal I made to you, which is to find me a place in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") that shows the Messiah will change the Law. Me wearing tassels/tzit tzits has nothing to do with that proposal. But, if you must know - yes, I do wear tzit tzits as God/Jesus commanded in Numbers 15.



You said You prefer the NIV and this is a famous NIV translation of this verse. Take a look at this verse as translated in other Bible translations per this link below. As you read all the translations of this verse, notice how the vast majority phrase this verse in the future tense - something like "these are shadows of things YET TO COME (as in the they are not done away with presently). This is the danger of relying on any one translation too heavily - especially the NIV. I would recommend you read multiple translations, especially on passages of Scripture that you are basing your beliefs heavily on.

Colossians 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.



I don't understand why you're bringing this up, because it has nothing to do with showing me prophecy that they Messiah will change the Law. But, if you must go down this road, I'll say that Isaiah is not the Law. Isaiah, in order to be a true prophet, could not be adding to/removing from the Law. So, whatever God instructed us to do on the Sabbath should be the lens by which we understand Isaiah 58:12-14.

That said, God said in the Law that we are to rest on the Sabath as He rested. It is His desire/will for us to rest on the Sabbath. Below is a link to the Hebrew word "chephets" which is translated to "pleasure" or "desire" in Isaiah 58:13. Isaiah 58:13 is saying that we should turn away from doing our desire on the Sabbath and do God's desire. Again, God's desire is for us to rest. I try my best to rest, both physically and mentally on the Sabbath.

You say that no one has ever kept the Sabbath. Yet you have Deuteronomy 30:11 saying that God's Law is not too difficult for us or beyond our reach. I am fully capable of resting on the Sabbath day and do my best to do so.

But, again, whether I keep the Sabbath correctly or not has nothing to do with my proposal. I asked that you give me a place in the Tanakh that says the Messiah will change the Law.



Please read 2 Peter 3:15-17. Peter says that Paul is difficult to understand and those who are ignorant/unlearned and unrooted/unstable misunderstand him to be teaching lawlessness (that the Law is done away with). The Bible builds on itself. The Law is the foundation. The Prophets, in order to be true prophets, must be in agreement (not add to/remove from) with the Law (Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 28:14, and 13:1-5). The "New Testament" must be in agreement with the Law and Prophets to be true. Instead, you are doing the opposite and reading the "New Testament", severing it from it's foundation (the Tanakh) and making the Tanakh fit your unrooted/unstable interpretation of the "New Testament". A good test that your beliefs are true would be to support them with only the Law and Prophets and not lean on any "New Testament" passages. This is what the Bereans would have done, since there was no "New Testament" writings at the time. The Bereans would have supported their belief that Jesus is Messiah with only the Law and Prophets (Tanakh) - with the Law being the foundation for the Prophets.

Below is my proposal again, but I'll ask if you have any other "examples" of prophecy that the Messiah will change the Law? By the way, it's interesting to me that Jeremiah 31 doesn't even mention an individual - like the prophet like unto Moses or Antichrist that is mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:15 and Daniel 7:25 . Maybe that's because Jeremiah 31 isn't a prophecy about Messiah...

I'll make you a simple proposal: if you can show me in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") a prophecy that the Messiah will change/alter/add to/remove from the Law, then I will start to consider your view that Jesus changed the Law.

Keep in mind that Deuteronomy 18:15 and Daniel 7:25 make it very clear that Messiah will only teach the Law and the Antichrist will change the Law. Also, Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 28:14, and 13:1-5 show that it is a sin to change the Law and a false prophet is one who teaches different commands (ie: change the Law) - even if they perform signs/miracles.

You say that no one has ever kept the Sabbath. Yet you have Deuteronomy 30:11 saying that God's Law is not too difficult for us or beyond our reach. I am fully capable of resting on the Sabbath day and do my best to do so.

That point jumped out at me before I even read your post.
Great points all around!

 

[christopheralan88]

GLORIOUSLY READ ROMANS

Not just [physical] Israel, but Yahweh Wrote TORAH on the hearts of those gentiles upon whom Yahweh Wrote TORAH also!
And
Yahweh Says THEY (gentile without TORAH)
ARE JUSTIFIED
BY DOING TORAH, showing thus that TORAH is written on their hearts also (NOT just on Jewish hearts).

Hey yeshuaslavejeff !

Sorry, I clarified in another post that anyone can be grafted into Israel and become part of the "new" covenant when it is established which includes Gentile believers.

Could you point that out to me in Romans? It doesn't come to mind off the top of my head. Thanks!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Hey yeshuaslavejeff !

Sorry, I clarified in another post that anyone can be grafted into Israel and become part of the "new" covenant when it is established which includes Gentile believers.

Could you point that out to me in Romans? It doesn't come to mind off the top of my head. Thanks!

Chapter 2 I think. Whenever I have to find it again, I search biblegateway dot com for TORAH, and "justified" .... Wonderful results that include even more than I look for each time .....

 

[bugkiller]

If Israel is defunct as you say, then there is NO New Covenant because it was made with Israel and Judah.

Also, please defend your statement with Scripture, against Scripture that contradicts you.

Jer 31:35Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for light by day
And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
The LORD of hosts is His name:
36“If this fixed order departs
From before Me,” declares the LORD,
“Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”
37Thus says the LORD,
“If the heavens above can be measured
And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
For all that they have done,” declares the LORD.


Take note that this is what follows the description of the New Covenant!!!

Your answer?

If there is no new covenant, Luke and Acts are bearing false witness. If this new covenant does not include gentiles it further promotes false information.

There is nothing in the statement from Jeremiah excluding anyone. We have Jesus quoted saying: This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

The word "new" here is "kainos." The word kainos means -

1. new
   1. as respects form
      1. recently made, fresh, recent, unused, unworn
   2. as respects substance
      1. of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of
   Nothing in this definition means renewed, modified or amended.

The word "testament" means - a compact, a covenant, a testament in any way a person wants to read the definition.

"Kainos" is also the word used in the Hebrew 8 quote of Jeremiah by a Jew. this makes the word new (chadash H2319 pronounced khä·däsh') the word Jeremiah used. The word Jeremiah used is not chadash H2318 pronounced khä·dash meaning renewed.

John 3 says:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I do not see anything indicating Israel or Judah being the only recipients of the new covenant. I do not read anything anywhere requiring anyone to become any part of Israel.

John 10 quotes Jesus saying: And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

There is nothing in that quote saying anything about Israel being the only fold (place of the sheep as in all believers). Those other sheep are brought into one fold as are the believing Jews. Earlier in the chapter Jesus says: All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

I'll make you a simple proposal: if you can show me in the Tanakh ("Old Testament") a prophecy that the Messiah will change/alter/add to/remove from the Law, then I will start to consider your view that Jesus changed the Law.

Keep in mind that Deuteronomy 18:15 and Daniel 7:25 make it very clear that Messiah will only teach the Law and the Antichrist will change the Law. Also, Deuteronomy 4:2, 12:32, 28:14, and 13:1-5 show that it is a sin to change the Law and a false prophet is one who teaches different commands (ie: change the Law) - even if they perform signs/miracles.

Deut 18:15 makes no such claim. Neither does Dan 7:25. So since the premise is wrong, so is the conclusion by default.

bugkiller