(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[stuart lawrence]

I urge you to read all of Romans 7. It talks about Paul desiring to keep the law out of love, but because of his flesh, it's impossible, and he hates that it's impossible. He hates himself because he can't keep the law of his Father.

Oh I love rom ch7

Why are sinfull passions aroused in people by the law if they live under it?
Verse5

 

[Devin P]

And the law under the NC is written on the mind and aced in the heart of the believer by God himself.
Rom7:7 refers to Saul the pharisee,. Not Paul the christian

Keep reading that chapter, just go through it real quick if you have a bible with you.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not; for what I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

16 shows that, while he breaks the law, he doesn't desire to. His flesh makes him break the law, even though he doesn't want to. And that this desire to uphold the law, means that he feels the law is good. He gives consent to the law, and not the flesh. Then in verse 17,

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Here in 17, and 18, He shows that the sin (the breaking of the law) that he still does, he desires not to do, but can't help it. Therefore, he sees that his flesh is sinful, and that apart from the law, he can't do any good in his flesh.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I believe the way I do, because of Paul's writings. He speaks to gentiles, and writes to them as follows:

Colossians 2:16 -

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

He's writing to gentiles here, why would gentiles - those who eat all animals, regardless of them being clean or not - judge these gentile converts, regarding meat? Unless they were NOT eating certain things, that gentiles love. Bacon for instance.
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Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

He says in drink, gentiles get, and got drunk with nearly every single feast or celebration that they had. Look at what Christmas is derived from. The feast of Saturnalia. When I looked into the origins of this feast, all they did, for 12 days, was get insanely drunk, have orgies, and do severe harm to others, and much more but that doesn't serve any point to our discussion. Gentiles wouldn't be judged, amongst other gentiles for drinking, unless they were abstaining from drunkeness.
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Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

There are no holy days that man makes. Only God can make a day holy. In fact, He gave us several holy days to observe, all of which point to Jesus. No gentile would have been in danger of being judged for observing a holy day, unless they were observing the holy days of our Father, as opposed to the holidays of the gentiles.
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Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

New moons have importance to Israel, because the cycles of the moon, are how the new months are figured. With each new moon, a new month starts. Gentiles however, don't observe anything having to do with the moon, therefore gentile converts being judged for a new moon, would only make sense if they were observing them.
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Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

This only makes sense, considering he's talking to gentiles, all of whom have no sabbath days, if the gentile converts were to be observing sabbath days. He's writing to gentile converts, and telling them not to worry about being judged in their sabbath days. Gentiles don't have sabbath days. In fact, it was customary that all men worked 7 days a week back then, Jews were seen as lazy, because they rested on the 7th day, so for gentiles to do such a thing, there would most definitely have been judgements being thrown their way.

This is just one verse, that convicted me to become Torah observant. Not only that, but Paul just a couple verses before the one in acts you linked, was shown to have been keeping the law. There are also, no gentiles, no jews in Jesus. Meaning, that there is no difference between them. That was the difference in their messages of the doctrine. Jews at that time, felt that gentiles had to keep everything immediately, which, coming from a Torah observant gentile for less than a year, trust me, there's a lot of things to learn, and it is a process. It's not something God expects me to have down pat, right away. There's many, many things to know about Him, and about the importance of things, and the symbolism of things, and the intention of things, etc. There's so much to take in, but He only cares that I desire to learn it, and that I'm growing in my faith, and that I'm getting closer and closer, more observant every day. Will I be able to fulfill all of the law one day? Obviously not, but I desire to rely on His judgement, and not my own. I know I can't judge anything, only He can, and He's given me a standard to live by, and I desire to live by it, I just have to have faith that He will guide me into the ability and continued desire to do so. It's a journey, and cannot be done all at once, and this is where the disciples disputed with the Jews that taught that new gentile converts were to keep everything all at once. It'd be akin to going to a tribe in Papa New Guinea, pfft, obviously you're not gonna know every custom they have at first. You're going to step on some toes along the way, but so long as you try, and sincerely desire to conform to their ways, you will.

You are ignoring the points made. The Jerusalem Church did NOT( NOT) intend for gentile converts, as time went on to observe any.ore than the four laws given in Acts ch15. For yet again I will repeat. Years later they RECONFIRMED to Paul they were ONLY asking gentiles to observe FOUR Jewish laws( Acts21:25)

And once more. Gods appicable laws are N OT arbitrary. You cannot choose which ones to follow and which ones to ignore. Therefore, if you are correct, the Jerusalem Church failed gentile converts abysmally.
And once again. If you are correct, the Jerusalem Church, many of whom had been Christ's disciples gave gentile converts a licence to sin for the whole of their lives( Acts21:25)

That is obviously ridiculous. However, people come to these debates with their set beliefs, and will, come what may depart with them

 

[stuart lawrence]

Keep reading that chapter, just go through it real quick if you have a bible with you.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not; for what I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

16 shows that, while he breaks the law, he doesn't desire to. His flesh makes him break the law, even though he doesn't want to. And that this desire to uphold the law, means that he feels the law is good. He gives consent to the law, and not the flesh. Then in verse 17,

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Here in 17, and 18, He shows that the sin (the breaking of the law) that he still does, he desires not to do, but can't help it. Therefore, he sees that his flesh is sinful, and that apart from the law, he can't do any good in his flesh.

So Paul is condemning himself in rom 7:14?
For in rom 6:16 he says if you are a slave to sin it leads to death.
Could you answer my question concerning verse5?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Keep reading that chapter, just go through it real quick if you have a bible with you.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not; for what I would, that I do not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

16 shows that, while he breaks the law, he doesn't desire to. His flesh makes him break the law, even though he doesn't want to. And that this desire to uphold the law, means that he feels the law is good. He gives consent to the law, and not the flesh. Then in verse 17,

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing; for to will is present with me, but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Here in 17, and 18, He shows that the sin (the breaking of the law) that he still does, he desires not to do, but can't help it. Therefore, he sees that his flesh is sinful, and that apart from the law, he can't do any good in his flesh.

So in your view, a Christians flesh makes them sin, though they don't want to?
So Christians are excused their sin on the basis the flesh makes them do it?

Sounds a tad Antinomian to ne

 

[Devin P]

Oh I love rom ch7

Why are sinfull passions aroused in people by the law if they live under it?
Verse5

Because, sin deceives by the law, as is written in chapter 7. Say you have two people.

Person A, and Person B

Person A follows the law strictly, but doesn't believe in Jesus. He feels that his following the law will perfect him, and that his salvation is in his hands. He feels that because he's keeping torah perfectly, that those that aren't, are beneath him. This causes pride, and this pride then causes him to feel he's entitled to more than those who aren't as observant, because he feels he's more worthy of God's love than those that aren't observing as much. It goes on and on and on and on, and this is reflected in what happened to Israel. Israel was supposed to accept people that wanted to join, so long as they observed the same law, but they became so prideful that they eventually barred all who weren't already in, out. They were punished for this, but I digress.

Person B, believes in God, and that Jesus is the only reason they are saved. This means, that while they follow the law, they know their salvation doesn't lie in the law. That it's not them keeping the law that is saving them, but that it only is them showing their love for their savior, because they do what He asks of them. Therefore, because they really have no part in their salvation, the salvation offered to them, cannot be boasted upon, because it was out of love that they were saved, which means, although they see others that don't observe, they were saved by love, and in turn, they should try to guide others in love as well. In person B, there is no room for an ego, because it isn't their doing that resulted in salvation in the first place, and they know this, whereas person A, does not. Person B, is under grace, because they believe they are saved by grace. Person A, is under law, because they believe they are saved by the law. Both follow the law, but their faith, is placed in two different things. A is in himself, B is in his Savior.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Because, sin deceives by the law, as is written in chapter 7. Say you have two people.

Person A, and Person B

Person A follows the law strictly, but doesn't believe in Jesus. He feels that his following the law will perfect him, and that his salvation is in his hands. He feels that because he's keeping torah perfectly, that those that aren't, are beneath him. This causes pride, and this pride then causes him to feel he's entitled to more than those who aren't as observant, because he feels he's more worthy of God's love than those that aren't observing as much. It goes on and on and on and on, and this is reflected in what happened to Israel. Israel was supposed to accept people that wanted to join, so long as they observed the same law, but they became so prideful that they eventually barred all who weren't already in, out. They were punished for this, but I digress.

Person B, believes in God, and that Jesus is the only reason they are saved. This means, that while they follow the law, they know their salvation doesn't lie in the law. That it's not them keeping the law that is saving them, but that it only is them showing their love for their savior, because they do what He asks of them. Therefore, because they really have no part in their salvation, the salvation offered to them, cannot be boasted upon, because it was out of love that they were saved, which means, although they see others that don't observe, they were saved by love, and in turn, they should try to guide others in love as well. In person B, there is no room for an ego, because it isn't their doing that resulted in salvation in the first place, and they know this, whereas person A, does not. Person B, is under grace, because they believe they are saved by grace. Person A, is under law, because they believe they are saved by the law. Both follow the law, but their faith, is placed in two different things. A is in himself, B is in his Savior.

The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin. Hence rom7:5

 

[Devin P]

So Paul is condemning himself in rom 7:14?
For in rom 6:16 he says if you are a slave to sin it leads to death.
Could you answer my question concerning verse5?

Sin is the breaking of the law, and you are a slave (biblically) to whichever voice you hearken to, and whatsoever you hearken to, is a mirror of what you desire. So, as shown in chapter 7, since Paul desires to be free of sin, he's a slave to grace, and not sin. He desires being free of sin, yet his flesh keeps sinning, but as he states, it's no longer him that sins, but sin that lives in him. He is a slave to righteousness, not sin. So no, he's not condemning himself, I definitely see why you'd ask that though, for sure!

 

[A_Thinker]

This is why all of the entire bible points towards Jesus. Because God, will justify us. It's not doing away with the law, but the self-justification that people had been tricked into.

Here you say it yourself ... "the entire Bible points toward Jesus."

Can you not see how a unscriptural emphasis on the Law can distract from Jesus ?

The Pharisees/Jewish religious leaders used the Law to attack Jesus and, thus, avoid acknowledging Him as Messiah.

Paul was a Pharisee. If anyone would have been devoted to the Law, he would have been. Yet, he clearly teaches that we do God's will as we are led by the Spirit, ... as opposed to observing the Law.

Galatians 2:19 For when I tried to keep the law, it condemned me. So I died to the law -- I stopped trying to meet all its requirements -- so that I might live for God. (New Living Translation)

The Law's function was/is to bring us to Jesus.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, ... not the Law.

 

[A_Thinker]

I urge you to read all of Romans 7. It talks about Paul desiring to keep the law out of love, but because of his flesh, it's impossible, and he hates that it's impossible. He hates himself because he can't keep the law of his Father.

And so, ... he is driven to Christ ...

 

[stuart lawrence]

Sin is the breaking of the law, and you are a slave (biblically) to whichever voice you hearken to, and whatsoever you hearken to, is a mirror of what you desire. So, as shown in chapter 7, since Paul desires to be free of sin, he's a slave to grace, and not sin. He desires being free of sin, yet his flesh keeps sinning, but as he states, it's no longer him that sins, but sin that lives in him. He is a slave to righteousness, not sin. So no, he's not condemning himself, I definitely see why you'd ask that though, for sure!

Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness
Rom6:16

We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin
Rom7:14

Hmmmm

 

[Devin P]

The penalty of sin brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin. Hence rom7:5

Right, but that's where our freedom comes in, the salvation offered by Jesus. We aren't under the penalty of sin, which is the punishment of breaking the law. We are free to practice righteousness, apart from the punishment of death.

But, even though Paul isn't in danger of being put to the second death for his sins, he still desires to be free of those sins, and to not break the law. He isn't going to be punished for his sins anymore, yet still desires not to commit them. That is what it means to have the law written on his heart. That, while he isn't going to be condemned for his sins, he still, with every fiber of his being, wants to be free of sin, and wants to keep the law to the best of his ability, but as he states, he cannot.

 

[Devin P]

And so, ... he is driven to Christ ...

Well, when writing this chapter, he was already driven to Jesus. This only shows, that after being driven to Jesus, he still desires not to break the law, but he still does, and it's a war that his spirit is having with his flesh.

 

[A_Thinker]

Sin is the breaking of the law, and you are a slave (biblically) to whichever voice you hearken to, and whatsoever you hearken to, is a mirror of what you desire.

So ... if you hearken to the voice of the Law, ... then you are a slave to the Law.

Not a bad intention, ... but, ultimately a fail ...

 

[stuart lawrence]

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not, but what I hate I do.
Verse15

For I have the desire to do what is good but I CANNOT carry it out
verse18

For what I do is not the good I want to do, no, the evil i do not want to do, this I keep on doing
Verse19

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom6:14


Hmmmm

 

[Devin P]

Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience which leads to righteousness
Rom6:16

We know that the law is spiritual, but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin
Rom7:14

Hmmmm

I agree with the scriptures you linked, but I feel we probably view them differently.

For instance:Ezekiel 36:26-27

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

In verse 26, he's referring to the writing of the law on the hearts of his people. Then he says a stony heart out of your flesh He shall take. Note, that those that don't listen to the Father, what does He do to their hearts? As Pharaoh, he hardens their hearts. Like stones. But, those that listen to Him, their hearts are softened, as flesh.

Then in 27, he shows, that the putting of His spirit in His people, will cause them to walk in his statutes, and his judgements, and that it will cause them to desire to keep them. As Paul in Romans 7, he desires to do them, but his flesh keeps him in sin, making it all the more known to him that he needs a savior. He needs mercy.

 

[A_Thinker]

Well, when writing this chapter, he was already driven to Jesus. This only shows, that after being driven to Jesus, he still desires not to break the law, but he still does, and it's a war that his spirit is having with his flesh.

Even as a christian, I will struggle to follow the Law.

In such situations, my only apt resort to turn to Jesus (i.e. in prayer) ...

 

[Devin P]

Even as a christian, I will struggle to follow the Law.

In such situations, my only apt resort to turn to Jesus (i.e. in prayer) ...

Read the last message I just posted on the thread to stuart lawrence if you have the time my brother.

 

[friend of]

Being "of" the law, is different than desiring to obey the law. Being of the law, means that you are brought in and are being justified by the law

Romans 3:20 says the law just shows us how sinful we are.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I agree with the scriptures you linked, but I feel we probably view them differently.

For instance:Ezekiel 36:26-27

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

In verse 26, he's referring to the writing of the law on the hearts of his people. Then he says a stony heart out of your flesh He shall take. Note, that those that don't listen to the Father, what does He do to their hearts? As Pharaoh, he hardens their hearts. Like stones. But, those that listen to Him, their hearts are softened, as flesh.

Then in 27, he shows, that the putting of His spirit in His people, will cause them to walk in his statutes, and his judgements, and that it will cause them to desire to keep them. As Paul in Romans 7, he desires to do them, but his flesh keeps him in sin, making it all the more known to him that he needs a savior. He needs mercy.

So how is Paul walking in Gods statutes and judgements in rom ch7?

He is sold as a slave to sin/ breaking Gods laws/ statutes.

He has the desire to do what is good but cannot carry it out.

He doesnt do the good he wants to do, but rather the evil he does not want to do this he keeps on doing

He doesn't do what he wants to do but what he hates he does