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(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

Devin P

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No, you would not be justified based on your own interpretation.
God himself THROUGH the holy Spirit writes the law in your mind and places it on your heart. It is NOT dependant on you!
Why do people differ in which laws are written on the mind and placed on the heart? If God puts the law in your mind, you instinctively know what that law is, for what is in your mind you in your mind must know. And the law in your heart, must bring heartfelt conviction you sin when you wilfully transgress it.
When you became a Christian, and God wrote the law in your mind and placed it in your heart, were you instinctively aware through that law you must observe a set Saturday sabbath? Or, were you only convicted to do that by reading what was written in ink in the OT?
Your conviction did not come from within, but by what you read

It came from learning about God's ways. My flesh doesn't want to follow the law, therefore, before Jesus, I didn't want to follow the laws. However, after Jesus, and I had been given the gift of the writing of the law in my heart and mind, I not only desire to obey, but I think about obeying. One isn't going to magically know the law of God, you have to read it. It's not found inwardly, but the desire is. Otherwise, we would all have different interpretations of the law. There is only one interpretation with Jesus. That we are to obey the Torah, but out of love for the Father, not for justification by following. No one is justified by the Torah, but by following the Torah, we show the perfection of our faith, we show our love of the Father, not only to the Father, but also to the world.
 
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stuart lawrence

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You say that no one is given a license to sin, yet the only thing sin is ever described as, is a transgression of the law, therefore, doing away with all of the laws, for only 4 man-made laws, would be giving them a license to sin. Those 4, were for new converts, so they weren't overloaded with things right off. I'm a torah observant believer, but trust me when I say, learning all of His ways, is overwhelming. There's so much to take in, and I can definitely understand having it given in chunks like that. But you have to understand, those 4, weren't meant to be their ONLY observances, those 4, are a bare minimum requirement for fellowship. If someone doesn't keep to those 4 things, we can't fellowship with them. We can pray for them, but to fellowship with them is a different story, as it's written.
I fully agree with you:
Sin is the transgression if any applicable law. Absolutely.
Were those four laws only for new converts as you claim? Once again. Years later the church leaders RECONFIRMED to Paul their decision to ONLY ask gentiles to observe FOUR Jewish laws(Acts21:25). So it is incorrect to state they were only for new believers. Acts ch21:25 proves the church leaders had no intention of asking gentiles to observe anymore than the four laws decided on in Acts ch15.
Secondly. Gods laws are NOT arbitrary. You cannot pick and choose which appicable laws you follow and which you don't. And no credible church minister could preach such a thing. Once again, if you are correct the leaders of the Christian church, many of whom had been Christ's disciples gave gentile converts a licence to sin for the whole of their lives, Bearing in mind Acts21:25
Such a notion is nonsensical.
Either you are right, or the Jerusalem Church was right. You cannot both be right. I will stick with the Bible( no offence meant)
 
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PeaceJoyLove

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The secret is the understanding of the PURPOSE of the Law.

Paul taught that the purpose of the Law, now and forever, is to POINT sinful souls to their need for God's grace.

And Paul taught that it is by GRACE that we are saved ... and that the Law has NO POWER to SAVE.

As christians, we are to be led by the Spirit which lives within us. As such, we are not under the Law.

"But if you are led by the Spirit, ... you are not under the Law."
Galatians 5:18

The Law points out the weakness and 'self'-fishness of the flesh that we become aware of The Spirit. Romans 7) The flesh is powerless, the Spirit is the POWER in which will bring overcoming. And the spirit and the flesh are at odds with each other, within. The Law is spiritual. Without the Law, sin lies dead, not in our awareness. It awakens something within that we begin to seek the righteousness of God...the Promises of God. IN Christ, the battle is won and the Spirit comes to LIFE, mind of flesh dies. The two are at enmity until we become ONE with HIM and the law fulfilled by the same spirit alive within us that rose Christ's body from the grave.

The very first commandment, "Thou shalt not eat..." which brought about a change of eyesight for Adam, with God asking "Where art thou?" Perceiving of the Law whether from spirit or the flesh is an inner Truth being experienced in a personal way. The image formed in the mind of what that is different than what the Spirit reveals as Truth high and lifted up. Truth cast down becomes a serpent in our garden.

The rod of Moses, the antidote for the snake bite when raised up (when cast to the ground, trouble for for the children of Israel) is a picture of what Christ is to us in the spirit of Truth...The spirit of Christ in you, the mystery hidden, being revealed...no longer tablets of stone, but written on the inward parts, fulfilled in the power of The Spirit...victory.

Our soul journey to finding the Truth that we are IN HIM keeps us wandering in the wilderness between two mountains (Sinai/Zion) until the one dissolves and we enter in to one, as ONE through the Son. No more duality within, single of eye, blind that we can SEE...
 
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RDKirk

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I fully agree with you:
Sin is the transgression if any applicable law. Absolutely.
Were those four laws for new converts as you claim? Once again. Years later the church leaders RECONFIRMED to Paul their decision to ONLY ask gentiles to observe FOUR Jewish laws. So it is incorrect to state they were only for new believers. Acts ch21:25 proves the church leaders had no intention ok f asking gentiles to observe anymore than the four laws decided on in Acts ch15.
Secondly. Gods laws are NOT arbitrary. You cannot pick and chokse which appicable laws you follow and which you don't. And no credible church minister could preach such a thing. Once again, if you are correct the leaders of the Christian church, many if whom had been Christ's disciples piles gave gentile converts a licence to sin for the whole if their lives, Bering in mind Acts21:25
Such a motion us nonsensical.
Either you are right, or the Jerusalem Church was right. You cannot both be right. I will stick with the Bible( no offence meant)

Interestingly, the Acts 15 Jerusalem letter is the first known epistle of the New Testament.

I would assert, however, that those four rules for the gentiles were not seen at the time to have been four Mosaic laws that the counsel randomly cherry-picked out of the list of 613.

Those four particular practices were the explicit practices of Roman temple worship. Those four rules run to what Paul was saying to the Corinthians at 1 Corinthians 10:14-22.
 
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Devin P

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There is a standard, and that standard is set by God, not decided by humans.

The way I see it, there are three types of self-proclaimed Christians:

(1) Natural men, those do not have the Holy Spirit
(2) Men of flesh, infants in Christ
(3) Those who live by the Holy Spirit and walk by the Holy Spirit

Only the third type of people are able to make sound judgment of what is right or wrong according to the standard of God.

For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.


(1 Corinthians 2:10-16 NASB)​
I'm not sure on your belief, but I believe the scriptures and writings you linked.

"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ."

I agree with this wholeheartedly though! Natural man doesn't want to accept the things of spirit, because he doesn't understand it. But, after God writes His law on our hearts and minds, we are gifted His spirit through faith, meaning that we will desire what is spiritual, because we understand that it is good and holy.

Ezekiel 36:27 - And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Romans 7:14 - For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
 
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Devin P

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For those who do not believe that God's methodology ever changes, ... how do you interpret the following OT passage ...

Isaiah 43

18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.

19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

... and this NT passage, from Hebrews 8 ...

6 But now Jesus has obtained a superior ministry, since the covenant that he mediates is also better and is enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, no one would have looked for a second one.

8 But showing its fault, God says to them, “Look, the days are coming, says the Lord,when I will complete a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

9 “It will not be like the covenant that I made with their fathers,on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not continue in my covenant and I had no regard for them, says the Lord.

10 “For this is the covenant that I will establish with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and I will inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God and they will be my people.

11 “And there will be no need at all for each one to teach his countryman or each one to teach his brother saying, Know the Lord, since they will all know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 “For I will be merciful toward their evil deeds, and their sins I will remember no longer.

13 When he speaks of a new covenant, he makes the first obsolete. Now what is growing obsolete and aging is about to disappear.

The first covenant was with the blood of animals, the second one was with the blood of Jesus. That's the difference, it doesn't do away with His laws, that's not what was faulty, the fact that the blood of animals can't do away with sins, is the fault it's speaking of. This is why all of the entire bible points towards Jesus. Because God, will justify us. It's not doing away with the law, but the self-justification that people had been tricked into.
 
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stuart lawrence

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It came from learning about God's ways. My flesh doesn't want to follow the law, therefore, before Jesus, I didn't want to follow the laws. However, after Jesus, and I had been given the gift of the writing of the law in my heart and mind, I not only desire to obey, but I think about obeying. One isn't going to magically know the law of God, you have to read it. It's not found inwardly, but the desire is. Otherwise, we would all have different interpretations of the law. There is only one interpretation with Jesus. That we are to obey the Torah, but out of love for the Father, not for justification by following. No one is justified by the Torah, but by following the Torah, we show the perfection of our faith, we show our love of the Father, not only to the Father, but also to the world.
It appears you and I have a totally different Christianity. You say knowing Gods laws is not found inwardly.
The first thing I noticed when I became a Christian was an awareness, inside of myself of my shortcomings/ sin before God. Did I have to study Bible verses to become aware of these shortcomings? No! For the law had been placed in my most inward parts.
What is placed in your mind, you in your mind must know. The law placed in your heart MUST bring heartfelt consciousness of sin when you transgress it. For:
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom 3:20

One thing I would agree with you on. If( if) God desires every Christian to observe Torah, he has placed Torah in every believers heart. Therefore no one could possibly be a believer/ Christian/ saved unless they have heartfelt consciousness they sin by failing to observe Torah.
However, you and Seyong seem unwilling to stand on where your convictions lead and accept that
 
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Devin P

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Not if God does the writing, which He said He would do ...
Right, but there's 40k different denominations, all of which, think they're right. We're supposed to be of on accord, how is this so, if there's 40,000 different views of how things are to be? Does God's joining together of a people, look like 40,000 different interpretations? Or is not God capable of joining men together more surely than this? Especially since, most in these denominations, believe their way is right, meaning they won't tarry with men of other denominations and churches.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Interestingly, the Acts 15 Jerusalem letter is the first known epistle of the New Testament.

I would assert, however, that those four rules for the gentiles were not seen at the time to have been four Mosaic laws that the counsel randomly cherry-picked out of the list of 613.

Those four particular practices were the explicit practices of Roman temple worship. Those four rules run to what Paul was saying to the Corinthians at 1 Corinthians 10:14-22.
It's widely believed, three of the four laws given were given to appease Jewish legalists who had become christians
 
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Devin P

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If God's promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless Romans 4:14

Being "of" the law, is different than desiring to obey the law. Being of the law, means that you are brought in and are being justified by the law. That is not what God wants for us. We are to be of faith, and love. We love the father, therefore we keep His commandments, but because faith without works is dead, we show our faith, by walking in Torah. Not for salvation, but because we're saved already.
 
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Devin P

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[for me anyway] in the most simplest way to describe the matter is that what is right and wrong according to God never changes nor is diminished at all: but it is the ceremonies and rituals and formalism that under the New Covenant which is of none effect; but rather now the just shall live by faith, and no longer by the ceremonies and rituals of the law.

I can agree to this for the most part. I still feel that I should keep the feast days, just because of the fact that the feast days all point to Jesus, and what He has already done for us, and what He will do at His second coming.

The spring feasts, the 4 of them, He's already fulfilled. The fall feasts however, deal with His second coming, and He's not yet fulfilled them, but He will. They're teaching me a lot about the Father and His intentions, and I just feel blessed to be able to observe them. The Feast of Trumpets is coming up, and it calls us to rest as on the sabbath for a week, just camping, reading, praying and fellowshipping with other believers, so we're going to head out, take off work and camp and just dive into scriptures all week long.
 
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Devin P

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It appears you and I have a totally different Christianity. You say knowing Gods laws is not found inwardly.
The first thing I noticed when I became a Christian was an awareness, inside of myself of my shortcomings/ sin before God. Did I have to study Bible verses to become aware of these shortcomings? No! For the law had been placed in my most inward parts.
What is placed in your mind, you in your mind must know. The law placed in your heart MUST bring heartfelt consciousness of sin when you transgress it. For:
Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom 3:20

One thing I would agree with you on. If( if) God desires every Christian to observe Torah, he has placed Torah in every believers heart. Therefore no one could possibly be a believer/ Christian/ saved unless they have heartfelt consciousness they sin by failing to observe Torah.
However, you and Seyong seem unwilling to stand on where your convictions lead and accept that
Unwilling to stand? What do you mean?

Also, I'm not saying that knowing God's laws aren't found inwardly. It's a calling that is found inwardly, but you can't know the law, unless you search for it. As Paul says here:

Romans 7:7 - Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”
 
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stuart lawrence

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Unwilling to stand? What do you mean?

Also, I'm not saying that knowing God's laws aren't found inwardly. It's a calling that is found inwardly, but you can't know the law, unless you search for it. As Paul says here:

Romans 7:7 - Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”
You dont have to search for the law. God, through the Holy Spirit writes it in your mind and places it in your heart:

I WILL write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts

I repeat. What is in your mind you in your mind MUST know.
And the law in your heart MUST bring heartfelt conviction of sin when you transgress it.
You are very wrong I am afraid
 
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A_Thinker

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Right, but there's 40k different denominations, all of which, think they're right. We're supposed to be of on accord, how is this so, if there's 40,000 different views of how things are to be? Does God's joining together of a people, look like 40,000 different interpretations? Or is not God capable of joining men together more surely than this? Especially since, most in these denominations, believe their way is right, meaning they won't tarry with men of other denominations and churches.

There's over 2 billion christians, ... each one doing things a bit differently. God made us different in some ways. Perhaps, to appeal to different individuals in the world ...

But, as in our human identifications, despite having diverstiy, we can be one.
 
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stuart lawrence

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You dont have to search for the law. God, through the Holy Spirit writes it in your mind and places it in your heart:

I WILL write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts

I repeat. What is in your mind you in your mind MUST know.
And the law in your heart MUST bring heartfelt conviction of sin when you transgress it.
You are very wrong I am afraid
BTW
In rom 7:7 Paul is referring to Saul the pharisee. He was not at that time under the NC, but an enemy of it
 
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RDKirk

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It's widely believed, three of the four laws given were given to appease Jewish legalists who had become christians

If that were the sole issue, then circumcision should have been the choice, inasmuch as it's a simple enough thing and was already the litmus test. Note that the letter does not indicate that the four rules were selected from the Mosaic Law...but they were specific idol worship practices.

Moreover:

Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


They could not give them four rules as commandments of the Law without putting them under the whole Law. It's everything or nothing.
 
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Devin P

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I fully agree with you:
Sin is the transgression if any applicable law. Absolutely.
Were those four laws only for new converts as you claim? Once again. Years later the church leaders RECONFIRMED to Paul their decision to ONLY ask gentiles to observe FOUR Jewish laws(Acts21:25). So it is incorrect to state they were only for new believers. Acts ch21:25 proves the church leaders had no intention of asking gentiles to observe anymore than the four laws decided on in Acts ch15.
Secondly. Gods laws are NOT arbitrary. You cannot pick and choose which appicable laws you follow and which you don't. And no credible church minister could preach such a thing. Once again, if you are correct the leaders of the Christian church, many of whom had been Christ's disciples gave gentile converts a licence to sin for the whole of their lives, Bearing in mind Acts21:25
Such a notion is nonsensical.
Either you are right, or the Jerusalem Church was right. You cannot both be right. I will stick with the Bible( no offence meant)

I believe the way I do, because of Paul's writings. He speaks to gentiles, and writes to them as follows:

Colossians 2:16 -

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

He's writing to gentiles here, why would gentiles - those who eat all animals, regardless of them being clean or not - judge these gentile converts, regarding meat? Unless they were NOT eating certain things, that gentiles love. Bacon for instance.
----------------
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

He says in drink, gentiles get, and got drunk with nearly every single feast or celebration that they had. Look at what Christmas is derived from. The feast of Saturnalia. When I looked into the origins of this feast, all they did, for 12 days, was get insanely drunk, have orgies, and do severe harm to others, and much more but that doesn't serve any point to our discussion. Gentiles wouldn't be judged, amongst other gentiles for drinking, unless they were abstaining from drunkeness.
------------------------

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

There are no holy days that man makes. Only God can make a day holy. In fact, He gave us several holy days to observe, all of which point to Jesus. No gentile would have been in danger of being judged for observing a holy day, unless they were observing the holy days of our Father, as opposed to the holidays of the gentiles.
-------------------------
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

New moons have importance to Israel, because the cycles of the moon, are how the new months are figured. With each new moon, a new month starts. Gentiles however, don't observe anything having to do with the moon, therefore gentile converts being judged for a new moon, would only make sense if they were observing them.
---------------------------------
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

This only makes sense, considering he's talking to gentiles, all of whom have no sabbath days, if the gentile converts were to be observing sabbath days. He's writing to gentile converts, and telling them not to worry about being judged in their sabbath days. Gentiles don't have sabbath days. In fact, it was customary that all men worked 7 days a week back then, Jews were seen as lazy, because they rested on the 7th day, so for gentiles to do such a thing, there would most definitely have been judgements being thrown their way.

This is just one verse, that convicted me to become Torah observant. Not only that, but Paul just a couple verses before the one in acts you linked, was shown to have been keeping the law. There are also, no gentiles, no jews in Jesus. Meaning, that there is no difference between them. That was the difference in their messages of the doctrine. Jews at that time, felt that gentiles had to keep everything immediately, which, coming from a Torah observant gentile for less than a year, trust me, there's a lot of things to learn, and it is a process. It's not something God expects me to have down pat, right away. There's many, many things to know about Him, and about the importance of things, and the symbolism of things, and the intention of things, etc. There's so much to take in, but He only cares that I desire to learn it, and that I'm growing in my faith, and that I'm getting closer and closer, more observant every day. Will I be able to fulfill all of the law one day? Obviously not, but I desire to rely on His judgement, and not my own. I know I can't judge anything, only He can, and He's given me a standard to live by, and I desire to live by it, I just have to have faith that He will guide me into the ability and continued desire to do so. It's a journey, and cannot be done all at once, and this is where the disciples disputed with the Jews that taught that new gentile converts were to keep everything all at once. It'd be akin to going to a tribe in Papa New Guinea, pfft, obviously you're not gonna know every custom they have at first. You're going to step on some toes along the way, but so long as you try, and sincerely desire to conform to their ways, you will.
 
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Devin P

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You dont have to search for the law. God, through the Holy Spirit writes it in your mind and places it in your heart:

I WILL write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts

I repeat. What is in your mind you in your mind MUST know.
And the law in your heart MUST bring heartfelt conviction of sin when you transgress it.
You are very wrong I am afraid
What you're saying here, with all due respect, makes no sense with the scripture or context at hand. He's saying, that except FOR the law had said something, he wouldn't have known of it. He only knew of it, because the law had told him.
 
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Devin P

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BTW
In rom 7:7 Paul is referring to Saul the pharisee. He was not at that time under the NC, but an enemy of it
I urge you to read all of Romans 7. It talks about Paul desiring to keep the law out of love, but because of his flesh, it's impossible, and he hates that it's impossible. He hates himself because he can't keep the law of his Father.
 
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stuart lawrence

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What you're saying here, with all due respect, makes no sense with the scripture or context at hand. He's saying, that except FOR the law had said something, he wouldn't have known of it. He only knew of it, because the law had told him.
And the law under the NC is written on the mind and aced in the heart of the believer by God himself.
Rom7:7 refers to Saul the pharisee,. Not Paul the christian
 
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