(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

[Soyeong]

The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?
Yes

Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness can only be done away with if God's righteousness is first done away with.

 

[GingerBeer]

Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness can only be done away with if God's righteousness is first done away with.

So you say. I do not agree.

 

[RDKirk]

Only the law of Ordinance was nailed to the tree the Ten Commandments were not for God Himself wrote them with His own finger both times ; Moses was not permitted by God to write them and the Ten Commandments along with the Staff of Aaron and a certain amount of Manna was placed in the Ark. We know God did not changed His mind about the First Commandment nor any of the other nine if they were we would not read "Children obey your parents written in the New Testament" See Ephesians 2:15

God was referring to to gentiles when talking to Peter for Jews considered gentiles to be unclean . read again .
Now about food it was referring to a day('s) they were by law of "ordinance ' to eat certain meats on certain day like Fish and not some other meat.
But the clean and dirty foods remain .. would you eat a Buzzard ? Fish without scales and fins are like unto a Buzzard they are scavengers.. Sea life without scales and fins feed from the Ocean floor and eating such sea life can and does cause Parasites and only Cattle, Sheep and Deer have split hooves and chews crud .

Wait, so is it only the Ten Commandments that remain, or the dietary ordinances as well? You seem to have contradicted yourself.

 

[RDKirk]

Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness can only be done away with if God's righteousness is first done away with.

So no cheeseburgers for Christians?

 

[Soyeong]

So you say. I do not agree.

Can you explain how it is possible for the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness to change without God's righteousness changing?

 

[Soyeong]

So no cheeseburgers for Christians?

What's wrong with cheeseburgers?

 

[stuart lawrence]

So no cheeseburgers for Christians?

I'm not giving up my pork!
And I have no consciousness of sin
When i eat it.
So, there is no law written in my mind and placed on my heart that tells me I must avoid the Levitical unclean foods

 

[Shempster]

The way I see it, the mundane actions and list of things to avoid-part of the law is no longer observed because it was simply meant to prove a point. That point is that one cannot consistently follow those laws and also that God does not care about us following rules, but rather He wants our complete love and devotion coming from within us.

Would you prefer a relationship with your spouse that is based on a written set of likes and dislikes?
Or would you rather that they simply loved you and everything they do is based on that love?

So the true essence of the law abides forever but the list of rules no longer serves a purpose.
We have the exact model for eternal life and it is found in the nature and character of God Himself in Jesus. So once our hearts are clean we follow the law all of the time through the way we treat others, including our opponents, and the way we think of others in our hearts testifies to us that we are true sons and daughters of God.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Instructions for how to act in accordance with God's righteousness can only be done away with if God's righteousness is first done away with.

What we have to realise that when someone accepts Christ as Saviour, then his sinfulness is nailed to the cross of Christ, and the righteousness of Christ is bestowed on him. The convert becomes righteous because of that and not through any works of holiness he may do. If he thinks that his own efforts at holiness will make him acceptable to God, he is dreaming. His own efforts leads to self-righteousness, and that righteousness is as filthy rags before God. The only righteousness that makes a person acceptable to God is the righteousness of Christ, because He is the only Person who is sinless. This is the beauty of the gospel. Our sinfulness has been exchanged for Christ's sinless righteousness. God now sees the new convert as totally righteous and acceptable to Him because of the righteousness that has been given to him by grace working through faith in Christ.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Can you explain how it is possible for the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness to change without God's righteousness changing?

God's righteousness never changes. The definition of "righteousness" is not holiness, but acceptability to God. Jesus was totally acceptable to God because He never sinned. Therefore Jesus had total righteousness. When He became sin for us on the cross, those who accept Christ as Saviour become the righteousness of God in Christ. It is an acceptability to God that is given to us as a gift when we accept Christ and are justified by faith.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 18, He says that not until heaven and earth pass, shall the law have to be removed. Heaven and earth are still here, so not only does this mean that the law is still meant to be obeyed. In verse 19, He says that whoever shall refrain from the law, and teach others to do the same will be called the least in the kingdom, but whoever keeps the law, and teaches others to do the same, will be called great. Then in verse 20:

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is saying that, the righteousness of the Pharisees, was by the letter, and not of faith. So, in order to have more righteousness than a Pharisee, one must only believe, and trust in God. But, we are to still keep the laws as the Pharisees said to, as stated by Jesus here: Matthew 23:1-3 - 1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

He is saying that the Pharisees teach the law of Moses, and that His disciples are to obey and to keep that law. To listen to them, because they preach the law of Moses, but only not to do as they do, because they place their faith in justification in themselves, and in man, not in God.

The law was never done away with, because it's displaying the Character of God. God cannot change. What is sin against Him yesterday, is sin against Him today and forever. Satan has infiltrated us, and caused us to view the law as sinful, which it is not. Jesus literally tells us that it isn't to pass until after judgement. We are to keep the law, but out of faith. I don't mean, out of faith the way the world says out of faith, I mean, that by having faith that God will justify you when you fail at it. Because you will. This knowing of your impossibility to keep the law shouldn't deter you from desiring to keep it. Romans 7 is a testament to that. The whole chapter is about him struggling to keep the laws of God, because his flesh and spirit are constantly warring one against the other. As we do today.

The doctrinal teaching of all grace and no law, isn't biblical. Abraham was justified by faith, but still kept the law. Genesis 26:5

Noah knew about clean and unclean animals Genesis 7:2
He even sacrificed a burnt offering on an altar, and only used clean animals to offer up: Genesis 8:20

Abraham also sacrificed a clean animal for a burnt offering to God, Genesis 22:13. It's not the law of Moses, it's the law of God, and it is never changing, because God is never changing. Abraham, although he was justified by faith, still kept the law of God. Genesis 26:5

The law was in fact a shadow, but only because through it, a lot of men thought that they were justified, when in fact, God is the only one who can justify. All of the bible is written about Israel. Israel, are God's children. They are those that have faith in God to justify, and be merciful, while they keep and uphold His laws. That is quite literally, every single great man ever written about in the bible. They struggled to keep the laws, while being strengthened by a sound faith in God. Moses was subject to the law, but saw and talked with God because of faith. David was to keep the law, but was justified by faith. Abraham was to keep it, but was justified by faith, Noah was to keep it, but was justified by faith. The prophets were to keep it, but were justified by faith. Jesus, was to keep it, and did. He was justified by the law, because He is the law. He is the word made flesh.

People try to say that people after Moses were the only ones to have known the law, but this biblically speaking, isn't so. It can be shown, over and over again throughout the pre-exodus scriptures. Even when Lot was visited by the Angels of the Lord. What type of bread did he offer up to Them? Genesis 19:3 - Unleavened bread. How would he have known to offer up to this being, unleavened bread if it weren't for the law? How about how just a chapter previously, where Abraham gave the Angel of the Lord a grain offering Genesis 18:6? These things were written about first with Moses, but they didn't originate there. The offerings, were done away with in Jesus, but not the laws themselves. The keeping of the 7th day Sabbath, the keeping of the Feast days, they are to remain until the end of time.

Besides, the feast days should be something we should want to celebrate. They all point to Jesus. All of them. Jesus has already fulfilled the first 4, and the last three He will come to fulfill as well. The very next one He has to fulfill is the feast of Trumpets. He will come during that time. No one knows exactly the day or the hour, but we know the season. It will happen in the fall, but because of Satan's influence, we don't know the exact day, or hour, only the season. Revelations says that Jesus will come when the last trumpet sounds, and the feast of trumpets, is one of the 3 feast days He hasn't yet fulfilled. The last two deal with separation of good and bad seed, and the reunion of God with His children. Both things, that Jesus will fulfill after He returns. Instead, we follow man-made tradition, and celebrate the evolution of the feast of Saturnalia (Christmas) Although, I'll save you from reading about this, as I'll make another thread about the pagan origins of modern-day holidays we observe today. This thread is long enough haha. God bless, brothers and sisters. May the work and deception of Satan not deceive you from keeping, speaking, and living in truth.

The OT Law is an old covenant replaced with the new covenant which is the Gospel. If you are not in Christ the OT Law is not done away with for you because it is your faith in Christ which declares you righteous...this we learn in Romans 4...Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Paul goes on to say that this faith now also credits us with righteousness and so it is said that we are Abraham's descendants...children of the promise which is Christ. As such we live no longer by the OT Law...which is the letter of the Law and kills, but rather by Christ's law which is the law of the Spirit and gives life...also referred to as the "new way" in Romans 7:6. In fact Romans 7:6 makes this entire message clear. I believe you concur here, right??
The Matthew passages you quote are clarified after Christ's death and resurrection. These passages set out our total loss...we cannot fulfill the OT Law and thus become righteous and worthy of heaven on our own. But we must fulfill these Laws Jesus states. Paul says it is our faith which will declare us righteous before God and this righteousness far surpasses that of OT Law righteousness. Paul also say not to gratify the flesh, but to walk by the Spirit which is a walk of love and Truth...again, the new way. Love fulfills the commands therefore. So these ideas do not conflict with the Matthew passages at all. I believe you concur here also, right??
Paul says in I Corinthians 8:19-23:
Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20 To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21 To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 22 To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. 23 I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.
Lastly, the Old Covenant is dead. See Hebrews 8:1-8:
Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain. 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said...
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.
Read the surrounding verses with this point in mind and you will understand why I believe as I do.

 

[Soyeong]

What we have to realise that when someone accepts Christ as Saviour, then his sinfulness is nailed to the cross of Christ, and the righteousness of Christ is bestowed on him. The convert becomes righteous because of that and not through any works of holiness he may do. If he thinks that his own efforts at holiness will make him acceptable to God, he is dreaming. His own efforts leads to self-righteousness, and that righteousness is as filthy rags before God. The only righteousness that makes a person acceptable to God is the righteousness of Christ, because He is the only Person who is sinless. This is the beauty of the gospel. Our sinfulness has been exchanged for Christ's sinless righteousness. God now sees the new convert as totally righteous and acceptable to Him because of the righteousness that has been given to him by grace working through faith in Christ.

According 1 John 3:10, whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, according to 2 Timothy 3:16-17, all OT Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for training in righteousness, and according to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is righteous. However, following God's instructions for how to practice or train in righteousness has never been about trying to become righteous, but rather it is what we are therefore required to do by faith because we have declared righteous by faith. In other words, it is the vocation of someone who is righteous. The righteousness of Christ is not bestowed on us so that we will hide it under a bushel, but so that we will let it shine by doing things that reflect God's righteousness to the world in accordance with His instructions and in accordance with Messiah's example of obedience to those instructions. God does not instruct us all throughout the Bible to do what is righteous and then turn around and disdain our obedience by grace through faith as filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). In Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking, but rather it is the people complaining about how they thought God was viewing their righteous deeds. Repenting from our sins and turning back to obedience to God's instructions for how to do what is righteous is an integral part of the Gospel message and any message that does not include the need for repentance and obedience is not based on the Gospel, faith, or grace, regardless of how beautiful it may be.

God's righteousness never changes. The definition of "righteousness" is not holiness, but acceptability to God. Jesus was totally acceptable to God because He never sinned. Therefore Jesus had total righteousness. When He became sin for us on the cross, those who accept Christ as Saviour become the righteousness of God in Christ. It is an acceptability to God that is given to us as a gift when we accept Christ and are justified by faith.

So when we talk about God's righteousness that means that God is acceptable to Himself? Rather, God does what is righteous because He is righteous, so the righteousness of God is that character trait and we are acceptable to God when we reflect that character trait by grace through faith. Jesus gave himself to free us from all Lawlessness so that we might be free to obey the Law and thereby meet is righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4).

 

[Devin P]

I'm sorry, but I joined this website to discuss the Bible. You won't accept what is plainly written in it, so we cannot have a debate.
Paul twice plainly states in rom ch14 ALL food is clean.
The leaders of the Christian church only asked gentiles to follow four Jewish laws, three of which it is believed were given to appease Jewish legalists who had become Christians. So it is an unarguable fact, if you are correct, the leaders of the church gave gentiles a licence to sin.
I really do not mean to be offensive, but how can we debate the bible if you refuse to accept what is written in it by the people who wrote the NT

I understand what you're saying, but the bible doesn't contradict itself right? Does it make sense, that the bible in chapter 15, does away with the law, but then in Acts 16:13, shows them keeping the sabbath? Would it make sense for them to condemn circumcision, when in Acts 16, Paul then circumcises Timothy?

I apologize for rubbing you the wrong way, we absolutely are speaking on the bible. You see, Acts Chapter 15, the first verse in that chapter refers to Jews saying - regarding NEW gentile converts - that unless they were circumcised by the manner of Moses, they can't be saved. When this isn't so, that's not how it goes. When a gentile is converted, they aren't expected to fulfill and know all of the law. It's a slow process. The things mentioned regarding the burdens, were the basic things they had to keep themselves from just to be able to make the cut. If someone is doing those things repetitively and they live in that manner, we as believers cannot fellowship with them. Even now. We have to get them out, and we have to have nothing to do with them.

 

[Devin P]

According to Psalms 119:142, God's righteousness is eternal and therefore according to Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal. So from the beginning that has always been a way to act in accordance with God's eternal righteousness, which existed before God made any covenants with man, so the way to act in accordance with God's righteousness is not dependent on any particular covenant, though it has been revealed through them. For example, helping the poor has always been and will always be in accordance with God's righteousness regardless of which covenant, if any, someone is under, but as part of the New Covenant, we are still required to practice righteousness (1 John 3:10). So there is a distinction between a set of instructions for how to practice righteousness and a covenant agreement to live by those instructions. A covenant agreement can come an go, but it will always be righteous to help the poor. Devin P spoke about obeying God's Law, but said nothing about placing himself back under the Mosaic Covenant.

However, according to John 8:56, Abraham saw Messiah's day and was glad, and Abraham is the father of our faith, so this is how people in the OT were forgiven. The blood of bulls and goats never took away sin, but rather the only way to forgive sin has always been through faith in Messiah.

I've never wanted to hug someone so badly. Thank you, brother! May our Father bless you more than He already has with the wisdom He's bestowed upon you!

 

[Soyeong]

The way I see it, the mundane actions and list of things to avoid-part of the law is no longer observed because it was simply meant to prove a point. That point is that one cannot consistently follow those laws and also that God does not care about us following rules, but rather He wants our complete love and devotion coming from within us.

We can not be held responsible for failing to obey something that is impossible for us to obey. God said that what He commanded was for His children's own good (Deuteronomy 6:24, Deuteronomy 10:13), so do you believe Him, or do you believe that He is an unloving Father who does not know how to give good gifts to His children and that He set a trap for us in order to put us under a curse? There is nothing in the Bible that says that it is impossible to obey God's commands, but rather God said that what he commanded was not to difficult for us to do, that His Word is in our mouths and in our hearts so that we can do it (Deuteronomy 30:11-14), and according to Romans 10:5-10, our faith says the same thing in regard to what it means to submit to Jesus as Lord. God's commands are not meaningless hoops to jump through to show our devotion, but are instructions to teach us how to reflect God's attributes: holiness, righteousness, goodness (Romans 7:12), justice, mercy, faithfulness (Matthew 23:23), and other fruits of the Spirit (Exodus 34:6-7).

Would you prefer a relationship with your spouse that is based on a written set of likes and dislikes?
Or would you rather that they simply loved you and everything they do is based on that love?

Do you think a husband should have the attitude that he can love his wife in whatever way he wants and she should be happy with what she gets or do you think that he should seek to love his wife in the way that she wants to be loved? God has give instructions for how He wants to be loved and out of our love for Him we should seek to follow those instructions. We are instructed to love God with all of our heart, soul, strength, and mind, which is a lot easier said than done, so thankfully we have all of these other instructions and Messiah example of obedience to those instructions to paint us a picture of what that looks like.

 

[Devin P]

Maybe explaining spiritual truth in a theological debating forum isn't the done thing.
However, under the NC the law God desires you to follow is written in your mind and placed in your heart. God himself puts it there.
What is in your mind you in your mind must know and the law in your heart MUST bring heartfelt conviction you sin when you wilfully transgress it, for:
Through the law we become conscious of sin rom3:20

So I really don't see how, those who say we must all follow the law of Moses can consider people as Christians who have no consciousness of sin by failing to follow it.
I'm sorry, but it shows a lack of spiritual discernment concerning the outworking of the NC at its core

I used to believe exactly the same as you, exactly the same. But, there was something that bugged me. How can we all have it written on our hearts and minds, but there not be a standard? Wouldn't that mean, that we would all feel differently? Wouldn't that mean, that we would be justified based on our own interpretation? Wouldn't that take away the power from God, and put it into our own laps, and our own ability to judge what is right and wrong? We are supposed to be one, but yet, this way of thinking, gives way to 40,000 different denominations.

The Torah being written on our hearts, means that, we aren't doing it to brag about our righteousness, nor for justification, but because it weighs on our hearts, we desire to do it.

 

[Devin P]

Ah ... a change.

So ... what God does never changes ?

Well no, it's not a change, because the bible congruently only writes of salvation for Israel. Before Jesus, gentiles could convert and become Israelites, and they had to observe the law, just as we do now.

Now, it's the same thing, the only thing that changed is that the sacrifice has actually happened now. Nothing really changed though, aside from the fulfillment of the sacrifice.

And ... from the New Testament ... "do not be a stumbling-block to your brother " ... otherwise, eat as you will ...

Another change.

This isn't a change, they were referring to the fact that some brethren abstained from eating meats, and felt that meat was not to be eaten at all. Others, felt they could eat any meats declared clean. It's talking about how, matters such as these, while they are edifying, the important part, is the gospel. Neither in this situation are breaking any laws, but just because of the confusion, we aren't to do anything selfishly that would cause a brother to stumble. We have to look at context when we discuss these issues. That, in context, is what that verse you paraphrased was talking about.

And this from Jesus Himself ... "A NEW commandment I give unto you ... that you love one another, ... as I have loved you."

Another change.

He also said, on this hang all the law and all of the prophets. If it was a change, would they then have been able to hang on it? No, because it's not a change. Love was always what the law was about, but because of our wickedness, it was hidden by sin and wickedness. It's not a change, so much as an uncovering of truth.

At another point, Jesus says that He was bringing NEW WINE, ... which could not be put into OLD WINE-SKINS.

Do you still hold to your point that God's works don't change from point to point ?

Finally, ... and I want you to know that I do not consider us to be very far off in beliefs, ... for surely I do believe that we should honour God in our doings and works. We MAY simply disagree on how BEST to achieve such a goal.

And ... I believe that obeying the Law ... and following the Spirit ... may, many times, be very similar.

To me, I see observing the Law ... as a first step ... to realizing the will of God in our lives.

For instance, it occurs to me ... that there is nothing in the Law (I think) ... that would have prompted Philip to find his way to evangelizing the Ethiopian.

So ... I ask the question ?

Do you believe that it is better to OBEY the LAW ... than to FOLLOW the SPIRIT ?

My answer to this question, is as follows.

Romans 7:14 -
14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Ezekiel 36:27 -
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Psalms 119:34 -
Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.

Romans 7:7 -
7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”

Romans 7:10-12 - ...So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. 11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. 12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

Romans 7:14-17 - 14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15 I don’t really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don’t do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

Romans 7:22 - 22 I love God’s law with all my heart.

The law of God, is spiritual. To walk by the spirit, is to do that which your flesh is against. The law. Our flesh, tries to get us to break the law, constantly, it is our natural desire to be against it, but that is what it means to walk by the spirit. To place your faith for justification in God and God only (Jesus) while, even though you're saved, still desiring to observe the law, even though as Paul stated above, you'll inevitably break it. That is what it means when His law is on your heart. You love it, and you desire out of love, to do it, because to break the law, is sin, and sin, grieves Him. Out of love, you desire not to grieve Him at all, and therefore you desire not to sin, because you know it hurts Him.

 

[Devin P]

Then we should still be sacrificing in the temple and requiring parents to circumcise their 8 day old male children.

I once thought the same thing honestly, but when I read into it, Jesus fulfilled our need for the sacrifice. In all honesty, we never needed sacrifices in the first place. God never desired this to take place, technically, God called all of Israel up to Sinai, but out of fear they refused, and instead sent Moses in their place to mediate. This made them fearfully servants, and not lovingly children. They were afraid, because their faith wasn't in Him, but in themselves, otherwise that fear they viewed the Father in, would've been love, as Moses saw the Father.

We are to circumcise our children though, although it's not for salvation. Although, even if they aren't circumcised, it's not the end of the world. They can then make the decision to later on in life if they wanted. I'll circumcise my children, because there are blessings in doing so, but I digress.

 

[Devin P]

the better question would be "Is the law fulfilled?" then the follow up "What is the product of a fulfilled law?"

The product of a fulfilled law, was our savior. He fulfilled the law, and removed from us, the penalty of the breaking of the law. The curse, He did away with. We can now obey the law, without the fear of the curse, although if we willingly break the law, there will be punishment for it, which is why we should desire to obey. Not that we will necessarily go to the lake of fire if we don't obey, but even if we do make it in based on faith alone, we'll be called the least in the kingdom. Definitely not something I want to aim for - barely making the cut.

 

[Devin P]

The way I see it, the mundane actions and list of things to avoid-part of the law is no longer observed because it was simply meant to prove a point. That point is that one cannot consistently follow those laws and also that God does not care about us following rules, but rather He wants our complete love and devotion coming from within us.

Would you prefer a relationship with your spouse that is based on a written set of likes and dislikes?

Would you prefer being married to a wife that knew what upset you, but didn't love you enough to avoid those things? And instead, out of a desire to not be hindered, did whatever pleased her, despite you telling her how you felt?

Or would you rather that they simply loved you and everything they do is based on that love?

This is exactly how the law is. It's contrary to our nature, our flesh. Doing it, is sacrificing our flesh, to fulfill that which God desires of us.

So the true essence of the law abides forever but the list of rules no longer serves a purpose.
We have the exact model for eternal life and it is found in the nature and character of God Himself in Jesus. So once our hearts are clean we follow the law all of the time through the way we treat others, including our opponents, and the way we think of others in our hearts testifies to us that we are true sons and daughters of God.[/QUOTE]

I once felt this way, but then God called me to look at the definition of sin. What is sin? It's the breaking of the Torah, or law.

Knowing that sin, is only the breaking of the law, what do you think Jesus meant when He said, go and sin no more? If you can only avoid sin, by keeping the law, what would you think He meant by this?

 

[stuart lawrence]

I understand what you're saying, but the bible doesn't contradict itself right? Does it make sense, that the bible in chapter 15, does away with the law, but then in Acts 16:13, shows them keeping the sabbath? Would it make sense for them to condemn circumcision, when in Acts 16, Paul then circumcises Timothy?

I apologize for rubbing you the wrong way, we absolutely are speaking on the bible. You see, Acts Chapter 15, the first verse in that chapter refers to Jews saying - regarding NEW gentile converts - that unless they were circumcised by the manner of Moses, they can't be saved. When this isn't so, that's not how it goes. When a gentile is converted, they aren't expected to fulfill and know all of the law. It's a slow process. The things mentioned regarding the burdens, were the basic things they had to keep themselves from just to be able to make the cut. If someone is doing those things repetitively and they live in that manner, we as believers cannot fellowship with them. Even now. We have to get them out, and we have to have nothing to do with them.

Jews had always kept the saturday sabbath and it is natural the custom was continued. However, in rom14:5 Paul states:
One man considers one day more sacred/ holy than another, another man considers everyday alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Paul circumcised timothy BECAUSE of the Jews in that area.

Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised gal6:12
Clearly Paul did not believe you need to be circumcised.
Years after the council of Jerusalem made the decision to only ask gentiles to observe four Jewish laws they RECONFIRMED to Paul their decision to ask gentiles to observe no more than four Jewish laws. So they had no intention of, as time went on asking gentiles to obey more laws.
Gods laws are not arbitrary, you cannot be free to follow some and ignore others. No one has a licence to sin under the NC. Any law God desires you to obey cannot be ignored.
If the NT church believed God desired gentiles to obey more laws, they would have had to have included them in Acts ch 15.
No need to apologise