[MOVED]Are you lawless?

[Wordkeeper]

So it seems that living by the spirit doesn't mean that a person cannot be tempted. If paul is warning them to be careful then this seems to imply that they may actually sin once they are tempted, so it seems that a spiritual Christian can be tempted, and even sin as well. They must careful. This implies effort.

Well, if I ask you to pray for me because I enjoy stealing, then you may be introduced to the pleasures of stealing!

Then you may need to ask another believer to pray for you!

This is why you should be careful when ministering to one another: you may be exposed to new temptations.

God promised to cleanse us from all temptations. This part is true, I can confirm. However, we don't want to stain our clothes just because we found a laundry that makes clothes spotless do we?

Ephesians 1:4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight

Colossians 1:22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish...

 

[Poster0]

Well, if I ask you to pray for me because I enjoy stealing, then you may be introduced to the pleasures of stealing!

Then you may need to ask another believer to pray for you!

This is why you should be careful when ministering to one another: you may be exposed to new temptations.

God promised to cleanse us from all temptations. This part is true, I can confirm. However, we don't want to stain our clothes just because we found a laundry that makes clothes spotless do we?

Ephesians 1:4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight

Colossians 1:22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish...

That scripture doesn't necessarily mean that we are faultless. It could just simply mean that God chose to see us faultless because our sins have been atoned for. Its the sin atonement that makes us blameless. You are ignoring too many scriptures. Paul says we can be tempted, yet you just throw that scripture out and assert that we cannot be tempted. I don't think i can accept your interpretation of scripture because its not rational.

It might be that you only think you are perfect because you have thrown out the scriptures that would open the eyes of your understanding, and allow you to see your own fallible self.

 

[Poster0]

Its my belief that God is merciful, and if we sin we can find more grace so we can begin to live right again. These scriptures from James talk about being blessed by persevering under trial. Does that sound like we wont be tempted? Or does it sound like God doesnt want us to use effort? It doesnt sound that way to me.

James also talks about the law that gives freedom. What is that law? It seems to be judging with mercy. If we are merciful, God will show us mercy. Why do we need mercy if we cannot be tempted? That's the law that gives freedom. What is James saying about resisting satan? Surely that is an act of using effort. Humbling our self also requires effort. Look, James says not to grumble against each other because we will be judged. Does any of this sound like we will be without any temptation? Does it sound like its wrong to use effort? No. Why are you against following these commands from James anyway? These words are what can help us to love each other and to live in holiness. It seems that God wants us to follow these words.

I'm just not understanding your theology. It just doesn't add up with scripture.




2 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.


12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.


7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

 

[BobRyan]

Well, if I ask you to pray for me because I enjoy stealing, then you may be introduced to the pleasures of stealing!

Then you may need to ask another believer to pray for you!

This is why you should be careful when ministering to one another: you may be exposed to new temptations.

God promised to cleanse us from all temptations. This part is true, I can confirm. However, we don't want to stain our clothes just because we found a laundry that makes clothes spotless do we?

Ephesians 1:4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight

Colossians 1:22But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish...

Cleanse us from all unrighteousness ... not temptations.

In 1 Cor 10 "no temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man... God is faithful to provide the way of ESCAPE" -- not "faithful to not allow you to ever be tempted" -- I think we would all agree.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Its my belief that God is merciful, and if we sin we can find more grace so we can begin to live right again. These scriptures from James talk about being blessed by persevering under trial. Does that sound like we wont be tempted? Or does it sound like God doesnt want us to use effort? It doesnt sound that way to me.James also talks about the law that gives freedom. What is that law? It seems to be judging with mercy. If we are merciful, God will show us mercy. Why do we need mercy if we cannot be tempted? That's the law that gives freedom. What is James saying about resisting satan? Surely that is an act of using effort. Humbling our self also requires effort. Look, James says not to grumble against each other because we will be judged. Does any of this sound like we will be without any temptation? Does it sound like its wrong to use effort? No. Why are you against following these commands from James anyway? These words are what can help us to love each other and to live in holiness. It seems that God wants us to follow these words.I'm just not understanding your theology. It just doesn't add up with scripture.2 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. 9 Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom. 10 Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

I am not saying that we should allow sin to continue in our lives. The text tells us to put to death the desires of the flesh, BUT BY THE SPIRIT.


2 Corinthians 12:7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.


Paul had this temptation in his life. Did he use human effort to overcome it?


Noo....oooh! He called God out on His promise to save us from our sins by sending Jesus:


John 1:29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


Matthew 1:21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,because he will save his people from their sins.


Why did Paul remind God of His promise, instead of using works, human effort? Because he did not want to do what Sarah did, use human effort to bring to reality what God had promised to do by the Spirit.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Cleanse us from all unrighteousness ... not temptations.

In 1 Cor 10 "no temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man... God is faithful to provide the way of ESCAPE" -- not "faithful to not allow you to ever be tempted" -- I think we would all agree.

Galatians 3:7Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?


The text tells us that God gave us His Holy Spirit, because of the reconciliatory work of Christ at the Cross:


Galatians 3:14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.


Read my lips. Before the Cross, forgiveness was available to men. All they had to do was repent. Worked for Nineveh.


After the Cross, sanctification, salvation from the body of death, was available. That's why the Holy Spirit was given:



Romans 7:24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

 

[Poster0]

I am not saying that we should allow sin to continue in our lives. The text tells us to put to death the desires of the flesh, BUT BY THE SPIRIT.


2 Corinthians 12:7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself! 8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.


Paul had this temptation in his life. Did he use human effort to overcome it?


Noo....oooh! He called God out on His promise to save us from our sins by sending Jesus:


John 1:29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!


Matthew 1:21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,because he will save his people from their sins.


Why did Paul remind God of His promise, instead of using works, human effort? Because he did not want to do what Sarah did, use human effort to bring to reality what God had promised to do by the Spirit.

Im not saying that Gods power is not needed, what i am saying is that God does indeed teach us to use our effort. To love God with YOUR heart, YOUR mind, YOUR soul, and YOUR strength, seems to refer to using our effort. I see the apostles teaching us to use our efforts for good instead of bad throughout the New Testament. Its actually irrational to suggest that we should not try to use our effort. Can we use our efforts alone? No, and we do need Gods help, however what you are suggesting is that we should never try, not use effort, and we should throw out all the commands. Bro, that is just not rational.

 

[Poster0]

Galatians 3:7Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

These scriptures from both Paul and the Lord trump your misunderstanding of Galatians.



Mathew 7:26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.

Ephesians 5:15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

 

[BobRyan]

Summary of Gal 3.

1. Vs 6 - the Gospel was preached to Abraham - so that even HE would know that "having begun by the Spirit" he was NOT earning his way to heaven "by the flesh".
2 Vs 10 - The LAW places EVERYONE (OT and NT) under a curse. All are under SIN (even today) (Vs 22)
- And God's LAW IS scripture as used in the NT (vs 22)
3. Vs 13 Christ came to redeem us from the CURSE (not to break/abolish His Word/Law/Scripture)
4. Vs 17, 21 God's LAW at Sinai did not contradict the Gospel/promise given 430 years EARLIER - they both existed at the same time at sinai.
5. Vs 18, the LAW of God could NOT save - it was never a means of salvation, ONLY the Gospel (430 earlier) was.
6. Vs 22-24 - TODAY everyone is shut up under sin UNTIL WE BELIEVE - until we express FAITH. When FAITH comes we are no longer under the condemnation (death sentence) of the LAW. Instead we have the Law written on the tablets of the human heart.

As Rom 3 says
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

The LAW of God defines what sin is -- still to this very day.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

 

[BobRyan]

21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.



Romans 3

19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

 

[Wordkeeper]

These scriptures from both Paul and the Lord trump your misunderstanding of Galatians.

Mathew 7:26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.

Ephesians 5:15 Be very careful, then, how you live—not as unwise but as wise, 16 making the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord’s will is.

No one is denying sin should not be allowed to continue. However, it is by the Spirit by which it is put to death. THAT is the good news, the giving of the Spirit.

Now, do you want to be like Sarah, who did not believe God could do the impossible, or be like Abraham, who believed, and God considered that he had done the right thing?

 

[Poster0]

No one is denying sin should not be allowed to continue. However, it is by the Spirit by which it is put to death. THAT is the good news, the giving of the Spirit.

Now, do you want to be like Sarah, who did not believe God could do the impossible, or be like Abraham, who believed, and God considered that he had done the right thing?

I don't believe that Paul gave us commands only for us to throw them out. IF i throw out any of his words i may as well throw the them all out. The promise im looking for is heaven. That's where i will find perfection. I try my best to do what is right, but i believe perfection is found after i leave this world. IF that's not true then show me a perfect man. Show me a man who can actually claim to be perfect like Christ was. Show me. Pauls whole theme as far as i can tell is that we are not perfected in this life.

The apostle paul was more perfect than most people, but i dont think even he would claim to be perfect like Christ.

If what you are teaching is the Gospel then i'll just give up right now because, no offence, you give me a headache.

 

[Poster0]

I see living in this world much like having a job to do. No worker if perfect and flawless, yet they dont get fired for being imperfect. They get fired for not caring about their job and being lazy. IF Christ fires me for not being perfect then there is no hope for me. My work is to fight the good fight of faith, to put off works of the flesh and put on good works instead. IM not earning anything because im a servant. I try to be the best servant i can, but i am far from perfect. IM hoping my master will be merciful and show me love that i do not deserve, but that i desperately need,

 

[Wordkeeper]

I don't believe that Paul gave us commands only for us to throw them out. IF i throw out any of his words i may as well throw the them all out. The promise im looking for is heaven. That's where i will find perfection. I try my best to do what is right, but i believe perfection is found after i leave this world. IF that's not true then show me a perfect man. Show me a man who can actually claim to be perfect like Christ was. Show me. Pauls whole theme as far as i can tell is that we are not perfected in this life.

The apostle paul was more perfect than most people, but i dont think even he would claim to be perfect like Christ.

If what you are teaching is the Gospel then i'll just give up right now because, no offence, you give me a headache.

God's instruction is clear. Trying to be perfected by the flesh, human effort is foolish:

Galatians 3:3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?


If you do not walk by the Spirit, your body will rot in the wilderness, unlike Paul, who believed and was compliant, had God's quality control passed seal on him:

Philippians 3:10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

2 Corinthians 12:9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Having a headache will be the least of your problems.

 

[Poster0]

Yes i am a son of God, that is my hope. However in this world i am bought with a price and i am a servant. Thats the only way i can see it.



Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Poster0]

God's instruction is clear. Trying to be perfected by the flesh, human effort is foolish:

Galatians 3:3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?


If you do not walk by the Spirit, your body will rot in the wilderness, unlike Paul, who believed and was compliant, had God's quality control passed seal on him:

Philippians 3:10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

2 Corinthians 12:9But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.

Having a headache will be the least of your problems.

YOu make me sick brother. Please forgive me. I just cannot listen to your words. Please, go preach to someone else, thank you.

 

[Wordkeeper]

YOu make me sick brother. Please forgive me. I just cannot listen to your words. Please, go preach to someone else, thank you.

1 Corinthians 3:14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

 

[Poster0]

1 Corinthians 3:14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Yes, thank you.

 

[Poster0]

ITs strange how i can read pauls words, and the words of Christ, and i feel edified. I read your words however and i just want to walk away.

 

[Poster0]

One thing i have learned is to wait on the Lord. Its good that i have his spirit. In all my struggles. that truth has been like a fortress for my soul. Im unconcerned about your preaching, or that of another person, because i already have a judge and preacher inside myself. His words of hope strengthen me. HIs commands echo in my thinking, and he judges me when i do wrong. Im moving forward in that.