[Moved] Are all ppl saved?

[Musicc]

Hi,

I am a new member. Although I believe in Christ, I believe that other people are also saved because a) god is merciful b) god knows best.

Do others hold similar views? I know conservatives don't, but how about liberals?

Thanks,
Music

 

[Martinius]

Hi,

I am a new member. Although I believe in Christ, I believe that other people are also saved because a) god is merciful b) god knows best.

Do others hold similar views? I know conservatives don't, but how about liberals?

Thanks,
Music

That would be the general view of most people on this forum. Personally, I can't see how it could be otherwise, since there have been many billions of people who in history were not aware of Christ, at least in the manner that most of us here are. God would not be that exclusionary and elitist. And we should not be so prideful as to think that the Holy Spirit can work in only the forms and ways of which we are familiar.

Welcome to these forums.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Welcome, Musicc!

Even though I've been a regular at WWMC for years, I'm not really a liberal, but more of a moderate conservative with strong emergent sympathies.

My views on this are somewhere in between, and probably most similar to the scenario C.S. Lewis set up in The Great Divorce.

 

[trek4fr]

Welcome, Musicc!

What do you mean by "saved"?

Do you mean loved by God?
Do you mean healthy and whole?
Do you mean delivered or set free?
Do you mean "going to heaven when you die"?
Do you mean able to experience God's presence and grace?
Do you mean in a relationship with God?

My answer would depend on how you define salvation and what it means to be saved.

Any thoughts?

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

My best answer to the OP's question, quoting myself from another thread:

I suppose I am a theoretical universalist. I think God wants to save as many as possible, and will give us chances to turn to Him even after death. I am minded of a near-death experience: a man (not a Christian) was being apparently taken to hell, cried out to Jesus to save him, and was rescued. He was revived of course (else we wouldn't have the story), and became a fervent Christian. But I don't think all will turn to Him no matter many chances they're given. Some can't/won't give up their selfishness or evil no matter what. Still, in the long run, and He has all eternity, God tends to get what He wants.

 

[Puptart]

In a word... no.

As liberal as I am, as progressive as I am, I do not believe all people will be saved.

I believe God wants us all to be saved and that we will have every opportunity afforded to us to become saved. What those opportunities are will vary from individual to individual, and that even those who came before Christ have all had their opportunities to be reconciled to God. I believe many, many people will be saved, far more than the average Christian on CF would believe are saved I'm sure

But my full and complete thoughts tend to be summed up somewhere in Colossians:

Colossians 1:19-23

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation -- if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

I've seen progressive after progressive and liberal after liberal quote Colossians 1:19-20 without the verse that comes after. If you look at 19-20, you stop and think "Wow, all things are reconciled with God through Jesus Christ", but if you only read down a few more lines, you see the words "If you continue in your faith". It touches on the fact that the gospel has been proclaimed to "every creature under heaven", but proclamation does not automatically mean acceptance or salvation (IMO).

While I do not take the Bible literally, I do take it seriously (which may come as a shock to some people at times). Though I believe the Bible to be humanity's understanding of events and that it is far from infallible, I still take from it many truths and inspirations that are of God and that help me to shape my understanding of spirituality as best I can come to comprehend it.

My belief could possibly be summed up in two ways: (1) Salvation is a gift, but we must actively receive a gift to make use of it, and (2) We are saved by having faith in God that we are saved. That may sound strange.. but it really does sum up the way my crazy mind works As a result though, no.. not everyone will be saved. I believe if all were saved, there would be no purpose to Jesus Christ at all.

As for people who came before Jesus.. or who believe in God but don't believe in Jesus.. remember that human time is linear, but God exists outside of that understanding of time. God is capable of all things, past and present and future, in all situations. I fear not for people who came before or in any other manner, because God will always have for them their opportunity, one way or another.

Ultimately there is only one thing to consider at the end of the day:

God is merciful, God is just, God is fair, God is love... therefor I do not worry about whether or not people are saved because I know what will happen after death will always be the right thing.

Also, God loves everyone.

And... If someone says they are saved, I would never second guess them.

 

[Martinius]

I've seen progressive after progressive and liberal after liberal quote Colossians 1:19-20 without the verse that comes after. If you look at 19-20, you stop and think "Wow, all things are reconciled with God through Jesus Christ", but if you only read down a few more lines, you see the words "If you continue in your faith".

I understand and agree with what you say, but have two comments on your quote from Colossians. Remember that Paul is not addressing his letter to all of humanity, but to a particular Christian community. So his admonition to "continue in your faith" was addressing the faith in Christ of that specific group. It can be expanded to serve as valid instruction to all of us, but then is it limited to just Christians, or can it be applied to anyone of any faith? That was not Paul's intent, obviously, yet to limit it to the faith of one segment of the world's faithful would not seem to fit God's intent.

Second point on that passage. Paul ends it by saying that "the gospel that you heard...has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven." He may have thought that at the time (doubtful that he thought it made it to the "ends of the earth") but we know that in his time it reached only a very small fraction of the world's population. Perhaps he was using a little hyperbole to underscore his point, as I doubt that he meant this in a literal way. So the question becomes, are those who hadn't heard the gospel eligible for salvation? I think the general concensus of this forum is that the answer is "Yes".

My belief could possibly be summed up in two ways: (1) Salvation is a gift, but we must actively receive a gift to make use of it, and (2) We are saved by having faith in God that we are saved. That may sound strange.. but it really does sum up the way my crazy mind works As a result though, no.. not everyone will be saved. I believe if all were saved, there would be no purpose to Jesus Christ at all.

Interesting view, and I think one that is found in a large segment of the Christian population. The last sentence brings up a question that would be the subject of a whole other thread: What was the purpose of Jesus Christ? How one understands that may help determine one's view of salvation.

As for people who came before Jesus.. or who believe in God but don't believe in Jesus.. remember that human time is linear, but God exists outside of that understanding of time. God is capable of all things, past and present and future, in all situations. I fear not for people who came before or in any other manner, because God will always have for them their opportunity, one way or another.

Ultimately there is only one thing to consider at the end of the day:

God is merciful, God is just, God is fair, God is love... therefor I do not worry about whether or not people are saved because I know what will happen after death will always be the right thing.
Also, God loves everyone.

Now if we could only get all of Christianity to truly love everyone. It has been 2000 years and it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Puptart]

I understand and agree with what you say, but have two comments on your quote from Colossians. Remember that Paul is not addressing his letter to all of humanity, but to a particular Christian community. So his admonition to "continue in your faith" was addressing the faith in Christ of that specific group. It can be expanded to serve as valid instruction to all of us, but then is it limited to just Christians, or can it be applied to anyone of any faith? That was not Paul's intent, obviously, yet to limit it to the faith of one segment of the world's faithful would not seem to fit God's intent.

It was more of an inspiration talking point than anything. As mentioned I definitely don't take the Bible literally. Instead, I see a lot of truth in the statement as it applies in my personal understanding. Taking it literally or reading too much between the lines and saying "What Paul ACTUALLY meant was..." can be good or bad depending.

It's all about what you get from the words in question and how they apply to one's own path. If someone says they are saved, I would not second guess them. This is just my personal belief/feelings on the matter.

Second point on that passage. Paul ends it by saying that "the gospel that you heard...has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven."

This is why I, too, think that everyone is eligible for salvation. That much I would never disagree with But just because something is proclaimed to all (in one way or another.. all is possible through God after all), does not mean "all" believes it, absorbs it, understands it, accepts it, or any other number of verbs. It just goes to further point to the fact that I do believe God gives everyone a chance, how that chance or those chances presents itself in various circumstances is not within my knowledge as I am only me and not everyone who ever lived of course.

I don't mean to debate you either, that's not my intention.. more or less I'm trying to clarify my insanity. I re-wrote my initial post about 45 times before I finally posted it, and I still don't think I said what I wanted to say very well, haha.

Interesting view, and I think one that is found in a large segment of the Christian population. The last sentence brings up a question that would be the subject of a whole other thread: What was the purpose of Jesus Christ? How one understands that may help determine one's view of salvation.

That would definitely be a whole other thread

Now if we could only get all of Christianity to truly love everyone. It has been 2000 years and it hasn't happened yet.

I don't have a lot of hope for the future either [/pessimist]

 

[rayodeluz]

We are guaranteed salvation through our faith in Jesus, but I find the below Scripture interesting. What I take from it is that God will save whom He wants. As Christians, we believe we are saved, but it isn't for us to say that anyone who is not a Christian is not saved. That's up to God, and not any human.

Matthew 19
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[Crawdad]

An old priest of mine told me that to go to heaven you must live a life pleasing to God. I feel that as long as thats your goal then you can't miss.

 

[SuziTiri]

We are guaranteed salvation through our faith in Jesus, but I find the below Scripture interesting. What I take from it is that God will save whom He wants. As Christians, we believe we are saved, but it isn't for us to say that anyone who is not a Christian is not saved. That's up to God, and not any human.

Matthew 19
23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

THIS IS SO BEAUTIFUL! <3 <3

 

[trek4fr]

We are guaranteed salvation through our faith in Jesus, but I find the below Scripture interesting. What I take from it is that God will save whom He wants. As Christians, we believe we are saved, but it isn't for us to say that anyone who is not a Christian is not saved. That's up to God, and not any human.

For me, I think the distinction needs to be made between "the kingdom of God" and being unified with God in eternity.

For Jesus, the kingdom of God was not a place you went to when you died. Rather, it was God's reign of compassion within the heart that could form compassionate communities ON EARTH if people would but follow the Spirit. It wasn't going to heaven someday, it was living as God's people on earth today where God's will was done on earth as it is in heaven.

The Jews, as a nation, refused this kingdom. Jesus cried over Jerusalem because time and again God had called them to be a light to the rest of the world...and they had failed. So the kingdom is now open to "whosoever will, may come." We have the Spirit. We can follow God's leading. We can form compassionate communities here on earth where God's will is done instead of our usual selfish agendas. And we can, as the Jewish nation did, miss this kingdom on earth.

Nevertheless, the rest of the NT seems to put forth the notion that there will be a consummation when God restores all of creation and every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus is Lord. I would hope that this means that everyone will someday recognize God for who he is and respond to his love. But I also know that the Bible speaks of those who perish and who are forever cut off. That is a sad, sad prospect and terrible tragedy. But I don't think God will force us to love him.

We can enter the kingdom now, through faith in God, his mercy, his love, and his grace. And it is very likely that we will be subsumed into God in the future. But I while I don't think that the wages of sin is everlasting torture, I do think that some will perish and, as the Jewish nation was, be no more.