cfposter

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Are you an older person, already lived a few decades ?
Do you thus see and realize that many people chose to live a sinful life, not caring about the consequences?
They "choose" to keep going the way of destruction, and will reap what they sow all their life. The wages of sin is death, and those who are not turning to God in Christ Jesus to be healed do not receive life. They reject life as Scripture says clearly.
"MSG
This is the testimony in essence: God gave us eternal life; the life is in his Son. So, whoever has the Son, has life; whoever rejects the Son, rejects life."

Let me ask you how much of one's salvation belongs to God? - 10%, 20%, 90%, 99%, 100%?

Wouldn't you agree that it is 100%?

What is more powerful, God's will to save a man or man's will to not be saved?

Is Faith a Gift from God? How about Repentance?

Does God know the end from the beginning? If so, then why start a doomed work?
 
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Der Alte

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If I told you, you still wouldn't believe it.
However. the verse does state that ALL SHALL be made ALIVE IN CHRIST. The timing of that is after the first dominion, the first kingdom reign,
at a minimum.

The problem with the anti universalist position is that they somehow think they made a conscience choice to be the Lords sheep.
That is not the case at all, in fact 100% wrong. The elect are the elect of God, they are His choice from among mankind solely according
to His predetermination. Salvation is a gift that you cannot earn or be capable of boasting about your choice or your faith for neither
are worth anything.
It is the faith and love that comes from the fullness of Jesus Christ that is given to the one God selects that makes them
called/elect. 1 Ti 1:13-14 NLT says it best " O, How generous and gracious our Lord was, HE FILLED ME WITH THE FAITH AND LOVE
THAT COME FROM JESUS CHRIST. His election process, His choice, not yours.
Jas 1:18 Of His own will begat He us through the word of truth that we should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures.
Jesus as 23 states in NLT was the first to be raised and the first of the harvest, then those who are Christs at His coming............
The ones who are Christs are His due to the fact the Father gave them to Him. Fathers choice.
The perfecting of Jesus garnered a group of called/elect, once they are perfected then they too are kings and priests. We see now
what the High priest is doing, making intercession. The next group of priests will be doing the same for another group of elect in
the next dispensation or age.
Eph 1 :10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of TIMES He might gather together in ONE(body) all things in Christ both which are in
heaven(first. second etc.. fruits) and on earth( last harvest); even in Him.
Eph 2:15-16 states that the Jew and the Gentile are to be reconciled to God through the ONE BODY (Christ). The cross of Christ paid the
price for the ALL as Rom 5:18 states, the ONE RIGHTEOUS act JUSTIFIED ALL unto LIFE.

Just to be clear, the elect are no better nor worse than the non elect, and the non elect (non-believer) are that way in order to
perfect the elect. Enemies of the elect for the elects sake. Rom 11:28

The only way that a human can see the kingdom is to be born of the Spirit, born again, that opportunity is the free gift spoken of in
Rom 5:18 Afterward they press into the kingdom which is nothing more nor less than becoming a son of God. How far they press in
is dependent on their ability to keep asking, seeking, knocking. But since they must be born again in order to even see/understand
the kingdom, that is given to the ALL at some point, and as it is the calling that God does not repent of, their being born of the Spirit
will not be taken away or lost. Rom 11:29 God is not keeping the blinders on and the hearts hardened Rom 11:8 just so He
can eternally torment them. Their turn comes once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Rom 11:25-26 And ALL Israel shall be saved.

You did nothing to earn your salvation and indeed can't. Rom 3:22-23 The faith is UPON the believer, and UNTO ALL and there is no
difference in the two groups as ALL are/were sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God.

Your boasting only proves one thing. You do not understand the election, nor the righteousness of God and they are one and the same.

Only a true elect that has overcome self righteousness is allowed to see these things (hidden manna) so it is understandable that the
majority of the world rejects this fact. Indeed those that make merchandise of you have killed the majority that have seen this.
It is not conducive to their monetary and/or power hungry agendas.

No one is requiring you to believe anything. Indeed you cannot for you have not earned the right to see it yet. Rev 2:17

We who do see it share the GOOD NEWS, those that cannot, share a destination of death and destruction.
Jesus said His words were Spirit and they were life. If not born of the Spirit then they are seen and interpreted literally
by the carnal mind of man that can see nothing but death and destruction
You began this reply by misquoting scripture so I didn't bother reading the rest of it. Here is your misquote "However. the verse does state that ALL SHALL be made ALIVE IN CHRIST. The timing of that..."
NO! the verse does NOT say "ALL SHALL be made ALIVE IN CHRIST.".
Here is what the vs. actually says (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." You have switched words around to make it say what you want it to say.
If this vs means all mankind will be saved why does this passage continue 1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Where does this say that they that are NOT Christ's at his coming will be saved?
 
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Samson2021

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You began this reply by misquoting scripture so I didn't bother reading the rest of it. Here is your misquote "However. the verse does state that ALL SHALL be made ALIVE IN CHRIST. The timing of that..."
NO! the verse does NOT say "ALL SHALL be made ALIVE IN CHRIST.".
Here is what the vs. actually says (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." You have switched words around to make it say what you want it to say.
If this vs means all mankind will be saved why does this passage continue 1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Where does this say that they that are NOT Christ's at his coming will be saved?
As in Adam ALL die, even so IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. The verse clearly states that all shall be made alive in Christ. Just as ALL
were a part of Adam so shall ALL be made a part of Christ. Their birth in the Spirit was accomplished at His cross. The timing for each
of the ALL is up to the Father to elect. For no man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him..........it is not mans choice it is Gods
as to when each will begin his becoming a son. The verse does not say all THOSE in Christ shall be made alive at His coming, although
that is true, but rather is says ALL shall be made alive. And the next EVERY MAN in his own order.........it doesn't speak to just those in
Christ, but EVERY MAN when the TIMES have been fulfilled Eph 1:10
And once again we get stuck at the end of the FIRST age, when Jesus comes back for the FIRST fruits unto God.
Any farmer knows some of the crop matures quicker than other parts, thus even in Israel there was a first fruits harvest.
Afterwards there was a general harvest which would bring in the remaining crop.
Why do you think they are called First? If there were to be no more then why not just call them fruit or seed, why bother putting in FIRST?
The same can be said for the First Dominion of the kingdom. If there were to not be other dominions then why First? Instead just
call it the kingdom comes and its over, problem is it doesn't, it uses First in both cases implying there is at least a second. There is
a First death and there will be a second period of death on the earth, however; death must be destroyed as the last enemy. That
isn't happening in the second death period.
By man came death and death must be destroyed for all men or death would still have dominion over man. By Man came also
the resurrection of the dead. That is mankind resurrected into the spirit (born of) where he was always predestined to be as a
son of God. Bought and paid for by the blood of Christ. Col 1:20
 
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Der Alte

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As in Adam ALL die, even so IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. The verse clearly states that all shall be made alive in Christ. Just as ALL were a part of Adam so shall ALL be made a part of Christ.
Everything in red is false! Again here is what the vs. actually says.
"(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
All mankind are in Adam because they are physical descendants of Adam. But all mankind is NOT "in Christ" unless they make a conscious choice in this life.
How do I know I am right and you are incorrect?
Jeremiah 13:11​
(11) For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
Jeremiah 13:14​
(14) And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Matthew 7:21-23​
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
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cfposter

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As in Adam ALL die, even so IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. The verse clearly states that all shall be made alive in Christ. Just as ALL
were a part of Adam so shall ALL be made a part of Christ. Their birth in the Spirit was accomplished at His cross. The timing for each
of the ALL is up to the Father to elect. For no man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him..........it is not mans choice it is Gods
as to when each will begin his becoming a son. The verse does not say all THOSE in Christ shall be made alive at His coming, although
that is true, but rather is says ALL shall be made alive. And the next EVERY MAN in his own order.........it doesn't speak to just those in
Christ, but EVERY MAN when the TIMES have been fulfilled Eph 1:10
And once again we get stuck at the end of the FIRST age, when Jesus comes back for the FIRST fruits unto God.
Any farmer knows some of the crop matures quicker than other parts, thus even in Israel there was a first fruits harvest.
Afterwards there was a general harvest which would bring in the remaining crop.
Why do you think they are called First? If there were to be no more then why not just call them fruit or seed, why bother putting in FIRST?
The same can be said for the First Dominion of the kingdom. If there were to not be other dominions then why First? Instead just
call it the kingdom comes and its over, problem is it doesn't, it uses First in both cases implying there is at least a second. There is
a First death and there will be a second period of death on the earth, however; death must be destroyed as the last enemy. That
isn't happening in the second death period.
By man came death and death must be destroyed for all men or death would still have dominion over man. By Man came also
the resurrection of the dead. That is mankind resurrected into the spirit (born of) where he was always predestined to be as a
son of God. Bought and paid for by the blood of Christ. Col 1:20
Der Alt is correct in that it is the all in Christ. But your also in correct in your meaning that your portraying. In fact, it escaped Der Alt when he quoted the next verse:

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The "every man" here is EVERY MAN. This shows that EVERY man was the meaning of the ALL in both parts of the proceeding verse.

Even though the word really means "each" in the singular but it is pertaining to the ALL (pas) of the preceding verse which is used for both parts. As no distinction is made to the "each", it reinforces that meaning that the 'pas' in both sections of the preceding verse are of the same group.

Later it is said:

1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

Notice that the Father is obviously excepted of whom put all things under His (Jesus) feet. This doesn't give any other exceptions. This means the Righteous are under His Feet also. This is because all shall be under His Feet. The ALL is everyone in ADAM which will become everyone in Christ all in due time.

I also want to say that when I say your correct or that Der Alt is correct, I'm coming off arrogant but consider that my opinion anytime you hear that and feel free to give me you refutations.
 
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Light of the East

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The standard out-of-context proof text.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
(24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

All mankind are "in Adam" since all mankind is descended from Adam BUT all mankind are not "IN Christ." That requires a conscious choice in this life.
Vs. 23 "Christ the first fruits" afterward "they that are Christ's at His coming." Only those who belong to Christ when He comes. So when are they made alive who do not belong to Christ when He comes? I don't see them listed here.

You are reading this the way you wish it to read.

I still don't get why people like you get so upset at the idea that God is love and will save everyone. Why does that bother you so much?
 
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Samson2021

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When you put Eph 2:15-16 And having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
for to make in Himself of two, one new man, so making peace; And that He might reconcile both (Jew and Gentile) unto God in
one body(Christ as a body), by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby;

We have a picture again of all things, Jew and Gentile, being reconciled in one body (Christ as a group) to God.

It is only when the body(Christ) has come to its fullness that the reconciliation will be complete. That will not happen at
the end of the first age. That ending is nothing more nor less than a Sabbath rest for the earth to begin the next age.
Everything in this age will be put back in its existing form. Satan is there, the beast(governments), the false prophet(religions)
death, the grave etc....
The outer darkness is the separation from God that we already exist in, as condemnation, mainly in our own minds.

The fire and the furnace are found in Zion/Jerusalem (the heavenly city)
Isa 31:9 And He (satan) shall pass over to his stronghold for fear, and his princes shall be afraid of the ensign, saith the LORD,
whose FIRE is in ZION, and His furnace in Jerusalem.
Oba 1:21 And saviors shall come up on Mt Zion to judge the mount of Esau(non-elect); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.
The saviors are the first fruits unto God and the lamb, the first group to be resurrected and enter life (perfected).
They judge the mount of Esau, the non-elect in this TIME, but not to torment, but rather to help in their perfecting.
This is how the BODY increases with the passing of each age or dispensation of time (Eph 1:10 ) It's a slow process according
to a mans perspective.
Isa 30:33.............the breath of the LORD, like a stream of BRIMSTONE, doth kindle it.

Now consider Rev 21:8 and reconcile that with Col 1:20-21 And having made peace by the blood of His cross to RECONCILE ALL
things to Himself (the body of Christ);
by Him, I say, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven. And you that were sometimes
alienated and enemies IN YOUR OWN MIND by wicked works, yet now HATH HE RECONCILED.
If you have been reconciled, and not by your making the right choice, for salvation is a gift initially but must be worked out, you
do not lose it as it is irrevocably given to you by God, (the calling). The time it takes to work it out is the issue most fail to perceive.
Then the rest are to receive the same Gift bought and paid for by Jesus Christ Rom 5:18 and 1 Ti 2:6 Who gave Himself a ransom for
ALL to be testified in due time.
He gave Himself a ransom for ALL, then He bought ALL, the timing of them coming into life is all thats left to figure out.
And that is according to Gods election of them, not their choice, not their deserving, as it is according to grace, nobody can earn
or deserve this. It was bought and paid for by the cross of Jesus Christ.

It is impossible to take Rev 21:8 as a literal interpretation given Col 1:20-21 and Eph 2:15-16 and 1 Co 15:21-23 and Rom 5:18 and Rom 11
ALL Israel could not be saved if Rev 21:8 is literal. We need spiritual lenses to see what is actually being said. Sure it sounds scary if
literal but it isn't, it's spiritual language.

The simple fact that life eternal was promised before the foundation of the world should make one stop and think, why would God
make that promise only to eternally torment? He knew what He was/is doing and how it would all turn out when finished, so why
start if it was gong to be up to man to make the right choices? God never abdicated His throne to man, it always was His
plan and He is seeing it through to completion. And when done ALL peoples ever born or made will be alive in the one Body of
Christ with Jesus as head of, and in this way all will have been reconciled back to God in the same Spirit.

Only man and his carnal mind can see God as a never ending punisher of a lower than an angel creation created with a mind that
separates the created from the creator. All words Jesus spoke were Spirit and they are Life. When seen through a carnal lense they
appear as only death and destruction. We need some glasses! But one must be born of the Spirit to obtain them.

But all mankind is NOT "in Christ" unless they make a conscious choice in this life.
I think you don't even understand the salvation process to begin with so I will not respond further to you on this issue as I might as
well bang my head against a brick wall. I do not say that as a snub on you, but you really just don't know or are deceived.
Your choice has nothing to do with the election process, if it did then you would have a reason to boast. I MADE THE RIGHT CHOICE!
That is self righteousness and has no place in the discussion of salvation ever.
And you are correct, not ALL mankind is in Christ YET, but when God is finished they will have been made alive In Christ. As we do not
yet see ALL things under His feet. But we know that will happen.

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith(imputed) of Jesus Christ UNTO ALL and UPON ALL those that believe for
there is NO DIFFERENCE. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.


You should read Pauls account of his own conversion in 1 Ti 1:12-16 He states that he was "filled with the faith and love that come from
Jesus Christ", that would be His fullness that we all receive of, if elect in this age. You do not have that faith or love in and of yourself
thats why it is a GIFT. You cannot with head faith grab ahold of that, it must be given to you by God. Election process.
That is the number one problem in the so called church today. Plenty of head faith believers that have not been born of the Spirit
and muddy the water so that everyone else looking into it sees nothing but mud.
 
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Samson2021

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Isa 1:26-27 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counselors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called
The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
Zion(people) shall be redeemed with judgement(Oba 1:21), and her converts(believers) with righteousness(imputed).

Isa 3:12 As for My people, children are their oppressors, and women (organized religions) rule over them. O My people,
they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Matt 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow and difficult to travel is the path that leads the way to everlasting life, and there are
few who find it.

Obviously not those stuck in religion.

Isa 4:2 In that day shall the BRANCH(Jesus) of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth(first fruits) shall be excellent and
comely for them that are escaped of Israel.(Gods elect)
Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from
the midst thereof by the SPIRIT OF JUDGEMENT, AND BY THE SPIRIT OF BURNING.

Mic 4:10 Be in pain and labor to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail; For now shalt thou go forth out of the
city(God), and thou shalt dwell in the field(earth), and thou shalt go even unto Babylon(fallen state of mankind), there(earth)
shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money .

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written cursed is every man that
hangeth on a tree.

1 Pe 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things...............But with the precious blood of Christ...
 
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Der Alte

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You are reading this the way you wish it to read.

I still don't get why people like you get so upset at the idea that God is love and will save everyone. Why does that bother you so much?
I believe God and Jesus meant what they said in the vss, which I quoted and which you have not addressed.
 
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Der Alte

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Isa 1:26-27 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counselors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called
The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
Zion(people) shall be redeemed with judgement(Oba 1:21), and her converts(believers) with righteousness(imputed).

Isa 3:12 As for My people, children are their oppressors, and women (organized religions) rule over them. O My people,
they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.

Matt 7:14 But small is the gate and narrow and difficult to travel is the path that leads the way to everlasting life, and there are
few who find it.

Obviously not those stuck in religion.

Isa 4:2 In that day shall the BRANCH(Jesus) of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth(first fruits) shall be excellent and
comely for them that are escaped of Israel.(Gods elect)
Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from
the midst thereof by the SPIRIT OF JUDGEMENT, AND BY THE SPIRIT OF BURNING.

Mic 4:10 Be in pain and labor to bring forth, O daughter of Zion, like a woman in travail; For now shalt thou go forth out of the
city(God), and thou shalt dwell in the field(earth), and thou shalt go even unto Babylon(fallen state of mankind), there(earth)
shalt thou be delivered; there the LORD shall redeem thee from the hand of thine enemies.

Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money .

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written cursed is every man that
hangeth on a tree.

1 Pe 1:18-19 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things...............But with the precious blood of Christ...
Does NOT address my posts in any way. This is not a game of my scriptures invalidate your scriptures.
 
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Der Alte

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***Der Alt is correct in that it is the all in Christ. But your also in correct in your meaning that your portraying. In fact, it escaped Der Alt when he quoted the next verse:

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The "every man" here is EVERY MAN. This shows that EVERY man was the meaning of the ALL in both parts of the proceeding verse.***
Why doesn't vs. 23 say "afterward all mankind" instead of "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming"? When Christ returns will all mankind be "in Christ" or will there still be sinners. Are those sinners instantly transformed into saints?
And we musn't forget,
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 
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cfposter

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Why doesn't vs. 23 say "afterward all mankind" instead of "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming"? When Christ returns will all mankind be "in Christ" or will there still be sinners. Are those sinners instantly transformed into saints?
And we musn't forget,
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Because there is an order. Some are called now and chosen obtain the Grace and therefore, the salvation of God in earnest and later other shall receive His Grace at His Coming.

The other verses in no way negate universalism. When Christ comes there will be those cast out that have to pay for their sins. But nothing in them say that it is endless. The Old Testament is showing you the Type. Why were the Levites chosen first? They were necessary to be instruments in the atonement of the rest of the Congregation of Israel. Jesus is doing the same right now under the New Covenant, He is calling a people to be His Chosen Priests and Kings to reign with Him at His Coming to be like that Levitical priesthood but under the operation of the New Covenant. And who now is that congregation? - the rest of Mankind for all have been grafted into be partakers.
 
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TahitiRun

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But all mankind is NOT "in Christ" unless they make a conscious choice in this life.
I would disagree, quoting from the EOB, here:

Col 1:16 For in him, all things were created, in the heavens and on earth, things visible
and invisible, thrones, dominions, principalities and powers; all things have
been created through him, and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him
all things hold together.


And, Paul addresses his pagan audience while standing in the middle of the Areopagus:

Act 17:28 ‘For in him we live, and move, and have our being!’ As some of
your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his offspring.’

All things are already in Christ (ie: in Him) by means of creation itself. No "conscious choice" required. And surprisingly, even the pagan poets knew this while also asserting themselves to be the very "offspring" of God, which Paul agrees with, and in so doing Paul makes these statements part of inspired scripture.
 
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Samson2021

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I would disagree, quoting from the EOB, here:

Col 1:16 For in him, all things were created, in the heavens and on earth, things visible
and invisible, thrones, dominions, principalities and powers; all things have
been created through him, and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him
all things hold together.


And, Paul addresses his pagan audience while standing in the middle of the Areopagus:

Act 17:28 ‘For in him we live, and move, and have our being!’ As some of
your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his offspring.’

All things are already in Christ (ie: in Him) by means of creation itself. No "conscious choice" required. And surprisingly, even the pagan poets knew this while also asserting themselves to be the very "offspring" of God, which Paul agrees with, and in so doing Paul makes these statements part of inspired scripture.
Almost but not quite. Paul was referring to God Himself, not Christ in that dissertation.
"For of Him(God), through Him(God), and to Him(God), are all things: to whom be glory forever Amen". Rom 11:36

The only ones IN Christ are the ones who have been born of the Spirit as of now. That changes on a daily, weekly etc... basis.
...."Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His". Rom 8:9
What Paul was saying was simply that everything is occurring IN God, for nothing exists outside of God.

17- Speaks to the one who is before all things, that is God. He made the heavens and the earth and all things in them.
We see this in that once the kingdom is delivered up to the Father even Jesus Himself is subject unto the Father. That said
Jesus is not before the Father.
Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God. Rev 3:14
The first member of Christ. He is the head of that body that all are to be baptized into.

There are things that could be said about just who we were as spirits that were a part of God before being placed in bodies
of dirt. That discussion may come later, but we know that Jesus came to declare the Father to His brethren. As that is fact,
then His brethren were always His brethren, even before time began. The question is who were we all to God, as a part of God?
Something special I would say, in that He would go through all this trouble to beget sons from/with us.
What starting material would you use to accomplish that?

The word Elohim is translated as God but is a plural and feminine. Every Adamite on planet earth is Elohim-the creative word of God
made flesh.
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood He also Himself likewise took part of the same.
Saying I will declare thy name unto my BRETHREN.
Wherefore in all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His BRETHREN
For both He that sanctifieth (Jesus) and they who are sanctified(you) are all of one(God): for which cause He is not ashamed to call
them BRETHREN.
I WILL BE His Father and He SHALL BE My Son. 1 Ch 17:13 Meaning even though He was foreordained He had not BECOME yet.
He existed as part of the creative word of God, as did we all, but was preeminent among us. (leader)
The oversimplified way of saying this is God spoke, and Elohim(the creative word of God) made it happen.

Psa 82:6-7 I have said, ye are gods(Elohim); and all of you are children of the Most High.
But ye shall die like men, and fall as one of the Princes.
 
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TahitiRun

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Almost but not quite. Paul was referring to God Himself, not Christ in that dissertation.
"For of Him(God), through Him(God), and to Him(God), are all things: to whom be glory forever Amen". Rom 11:36
We'll need to disagree. Paul specifically states the Person/object he is speaking of as being the "image of God" (Col 1:15), shown here using the Greek text for clarity:

Col 1:15 ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως,

Paul refers to Christ as being the "image of God" (2Co 4:4), as does the author of Hebrews (Heb 1:3). Paul then links the statements of v.15 (above) to those of v.16 (below) by using the demonstrative conjunction: "ὅτι" (ie: "that" Person/object mentioned previously), here:

Col 1:16 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι, εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι᾿ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·

There is simply no question or debate whom Paul is speaking of. It's Christ.
The only ones IN Christ are the ones who have been born of the Spirit as of now. That changes on a daily, weekly etc... basis....."Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His". Rom 8:9
I would disagree here too. There is a difference between a person being in Christ and a person having or not having the Spirit of Christ within themselves. Those are two completely different aspects that define two wholly different things. You're trying to conflate the two conditions. They're not the same.

An example of being "in" but not "of" is found here:

Joh 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word, and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Similarly, an unregenerate person can be "in" Christ without being "of" Christ (ie: having the Spirit of Christ).
What Paul was saying was simply that everything is occurring IN God, for nothing exists outside of God.
I agree that "nothing exists outside of God", however I would probably disagree with how you're understanding that concept. Paul, in Act 17:28, is specifically speaking of a person's "being" that lives, moves and has it's very existence in Christ. Not simply "occurring" acts that they perform, but rather their very "being" (Gk: ἐσμέν (present/indicative), ie: the state of existing).

The reason for this is that all things (including all human beings) were created "in" Christ (Col 1:16) and are held together, that is: they consist "in" Christ (Col 1:17).
 
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Samson2021

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We'll need to disagree. Paul specifically states the Person/object he is speaking of as being the "image of God" (Col 1:15), shown here using the Greek text for clarity:

Col 1:15 ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως,

Paul refers to Christ as being the "image of God" (2Co 4:4), as does the author of Hebrews (Heb 1:3). Paul then links the statements of v.15 (above) to those of v.16 (below) by using the demonstrative conjunction: "ὅτι" (ie: "that" Person/object mentioned previously), here:

Col 1:16 ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ ἐκτίσθη τὰ πάντα, τὰ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς καὶ τὰ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, τὰ ὁρατὰ καὶ τὰ ἀόρατα, εἴτε θρόνοι, εἴτε κυριότητες εἴτε ἀρχαὶ εἴτε ἐξουσίαι· τὰ πάντα δι᾿ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν ἔκτισται·

There is simply no question or debate whom Paul is speaking of. It's Christ.

I would disagree here too. There is a difference between a person being in Christ and a person having or not having the Spirit of Christ within themselves. Those are two completely different aspects that define two wholly different things. You're trying to conflate the two conditions. They're not the same.

I agree that "nothing exists outside of God", however I would probably disagree with how you're understanding that concept. Paul, in Act 17:28, is specifically speaking of a person's "being" that lives, moves and has it's very existence in Christ. Not simply "occurring" acts that they perform, but rather their very "being" (Gk: ἐσμέν (present/indicative), ie: the state of existing).

The reason for this is that all things (including all human beings) were created "in" Christ (Col 1:16) and are held together, that is: they consist "in" Christ (Col 1:17).

Gal 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Obviously only those that have received the faith and love that come from Jesus Christ have been baptized into Christ, thus put on Christ.
Have become a member of the body. Jesus was Jesus of Nazareth until the Spirit descended and stayed on Him at Jordan, then He was
known as Jesus Christ. Rev 3:14 "The beginning of the creation of God" The 42nd generation from Abraham. Jesus of Nazareth-41st
That would say then that since Jesus was not Jesus Christ until after He received the Spirit, no one was in Christ until that moment.

Being baptized into Christ (the anointing) has not happened to anyone other than the elect of God for the present moment.

Seeing that it is the body of Christ (many membered ) through which everyone is to be reconciled to God, Eph 2:14-16 and only the first
fruits unto God and the lamb will have been reconciled at the first resurrection, only they are in Christ.

The body will continue to grow in numbers, but is still one body, until complete.

Christ is the name used to identify those who are members of the body. Jesus is the head, and as such was the beginning of
the creation of God. The First born. A spirit from the Father, perfected as a man, and glorified after resurrection.

Col 1:16 NLT For THROUGH him(Elohim-creative word of God) God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see and the things we can't see such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created THROUGH him and for him.

As Jesus was GIVEN life to have within Himself, that was something He did not possess prior to the giving. That said,
He and His brethren, were with God and indeed were a part of God. When resurrected He was glorified into a position of God, but
not the One and only True God, the Father of us all.
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. The ending is a prophetic statement. And fulfilled
when Jesus was glorified as the first to complete its end point at His glorification (God). The creative word of God, that was with God
in the beginning, became a God, but was a part of God before becoming. Perfected and glorified word of God that is a God.
As mentioned earlier God the Father spoke and the Elohim made it come into existence. He as leader of the Elohim is noted to be the
one who created everything, but it was created THROUGH him, by God.

Imagine the hand of the carpenter, it is indeed the instrument that accomplishes the work, but the mind of the one who possesses the
hand is the creator of the house, not the hand.
In the same way the Elohim is credited with the creation, but it was instructed by the Father as to what to create.

Jesus as the beginning of the creation of God, was the firstborn among many brethren. That said Jesus did not create Himself.
But was perfected into what He is today by the Father, just as any member of Christ is to be perfected into the Image of the
first born Son. Who is the express Image of the Father. God begets God begets God. See the pattern?

Jesus just as we were of the Elohim, the creative word of God. He was placed in a human body just as we all have been. He received
life within Himself (baptized into the Spirit) at Jordan and then was known as Jesus Christ. After His resurrection He was glorified
and was then the express image of the Father, possessing all the characteristics of God and thus a God, but not the Father.
You could say that as any who have been baptized into Christ are part of the body of Christ thus one would now be (your name-Christ)

When we see Psa 82:6 "I have said ye are gods(Elohim) and all of you are children of the Most High", Jesus was the first to come
into that fullness. The next group is being called to follow unto the same destination. Sons. And ALL shall be made alive in Christ.
As not all have been made alive yet, they are not in Christ yet.
 
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Der Alte

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Because there is an order. Some are called now and chosen obtain the Grace and therefore, the salvation of God in earnest and later other shall receive His Grace at His Coming.

The other verses in no way negate universalism. When Christ comes there will be those cast out that have to pay for their sins. But nothing in them say that it is endless. The Old Testament is showing you the Type. Why were the Levites chosen first? They were necessary to be instruments in the atonement of the rest of the Congregation of Israel. Jesus is doing the same right now under the New Covenant, He is calling a people to be His Chosen Priests and Kings to reign with Him at His Coming to be like that Levitical priesthood but under the operation of the New Covenant. And who now is that congregation? - the rest of Mankind for all have been grafted into be partakers.
I see a lot of commentary but NO scripture supporting them. I did NOT add any unscriptural commentary to the 26 vss, I quoted. And nothing has been posted which addresses the 26 vss, I quoted.
 
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cfposter

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I see a lot of commentary but NO scripture supporting them. I did NOT add any unscriptural commentary to the 26 vss, I quoted. And nothing has been posted which addresses the 26 vss, I quoted.

Unfortunately Der Alte, I don't think it would be to your interest. If you see me comment on your posts, it really isn't intended to you directly but to those that may be reading along.
 
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Samson2021

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Why doesn't vs. 23 say "afterward all mankind" instead of "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming"? When Christ returns will all mankind be "in Christ" or will there still be sinners. Are those sinners instantly transformed into saints?
And we musn't forget,
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.​
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
To briefly answer your questions.

Vs 23 is only addressing those who are Christs at the end of this age or dispensation of time.
When Christ comes He will reign on the earth for only 1000 yrs. Then we start the second period of death.
In which another crop of fruits is to be matured and harvested.
If this were not so then the kingdom should have no end, but as it is only 1000yrs it ends in order for the next period or age to begin.
It is a sabbath for the earth. During which many people will be born upon the face of it and none of them will enter the spiritual
kingdom even though they see the risen Lord and His brethren upon the earth. Some that will live near the end know them and
are still deceived and eventually fire from heaven consumes them all.
A good question to ask here is why is Satan let out to deceive the nations? If he's locked up why make it necessary to allow Him to
work so that God must end the kingdom reign with fire from heaven? Just keep Him locked up and they would be fine. Or would they?
If the goal was to bring mankind to the finality of the Image of the firstborn Son, you can't do that without the world as it is now,
steeped in faithlessness and little love of God.

The Matt 7 quotes are quite simple if you understand that the people He is addressing were never born of the Spirit to begin with.
This is how He never knew them.
They thought they were born of the Spirit but were not. Thus the Jesus they taught and preached was not the actual Jesus.
No Holy Ghost, no truth. Lies they spread and in doing so are workers of Iniquity.

They will wait their turn to be made alive in Christ when the Father calls them in the second or later dispensation.
 
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