Imperfect Ministry

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There are many videos on Youtube criticising ministries that don't dot all the Is and cross all the Ts in their doctrine. For example, a well known healing evangelist who in later years had a vision of a 90ft Jesus telling him to raise the finance to build a hospital in his city. Yet this evangelist has preached the Gospel involving Jesus dying on the Cross for us. Another one is a new deceased world-wide evangelist who was well known for preaching the Gospel and winning thousands to Christ, and yet he was on friendly terms with the pope, Mormon and Muslim leaders. And a 19th Century pastor and evangelist whose sermons have blessed multitudes of people from then until now, but was a mason. As a result of the faults and failings of these preachers, they are condemned as false teachers. But is this condemnation fair? I don't think so.

The Scripture says that we have the treasure in earthen vessels, and that we have partial knowledge and those who prophesy do it partially. Also, there were OT saints who had grievous faults (Moses having fits of anger, David committing adultery and murder, Solomon marrying pagan wives, Samson having affairs with different women; yet all these were seen by God as having good hearts, One king of Israel is reported as being right with God in his heart, but not all his actions were right.

There is a major difference between a preacher or pastor whose heart is right with God, and whose desire is to glorify God but through his faults and failings sometimes gets it wrong and makes a hash of things; and the man or woman whose heart is not right with God, who is self seeking, greedy for money, and a deliberate heretic. I think we are going to have some surprises at the judgment, where the preachers we think are false turn out to be true, and those we think are true turn out to be false. How are we to know? God looks on the heart. We have seen in church history that both Arminians, who believe we can be saved today and lost tomorrow, and Calvinists who believe in once saved always saved, had very successful soul winning ministries because they preached the Gospel of Christ.

The trouble is that we tend, because of our sinful nature, to mark our own faults with a road marker, and the faults of others with a drafting pencil. When we look at a ministry those who are perfectionists, see the glass as half empty instead of half full.

A good indication is what Paul said: "If anyone comes preaching another gospel than the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." When the disciples complained about someone casting out demons who was not part of their own party, Jesus said, "Leave them alone because who is for us is not against us." Paul spoke of those who preached the Gospel out of envy and jealousy, but at least they preached the Gospel so they shouldn't be rejected as false and heretical.

So the test of a ministry is not whether they have faults or failings, but whether they are preaching the Gospel of Christ - Jesus and Him crucified and risen again., or if they are preaching another gospel and presenting another Jesus not of the Jesus of the Bible. For example, Post-Modern Liberalists don't believe in an historical Jesus, nor do they see God as a real person, but as a concept. They are preaching a gospel, not as Paul preached it, and therefore they are false and Paul said that if they come teaching a doctrine that is contrary to the doctrine of Christ, then they should be totally rejected, not greeted, or welcomed into our homes, otherwise we are being partakers of their heresies.

But a healing evangelist who preached the Gospel, did what he could to get sick people healed, but had continual battles with alcoholism, should be condemn and reject him because of his struggle with the flesh, a struggle that we all have? Or the other healing evangelist who had a gluttony problem that eventually caused his death, and yet he faithfully preached the Gospel, do we condemn him as well?

According to the Biblical evidence and church history, we see that God has used very imperfect vessels to bring the Gospel to the unconverted. This is the miracle, that vessels with sometimes serious faults and failings can bring many to Christ. This shows that it is the Song and not the singer.
 

The Liturgist

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There are many videos on Youtube criticising ministries that don't dot all the Is and cross all the Ts in their doctrine. For example, a well known healing evangelist who in later years had a vision of a 90ft Jesus telling him to raise the finance to build a hospital in his city. Yet this evangelist has preached the Gospel involving Jesus dying on the Cross for us. Another one is a new deceased world-wide evangelist who was well known for preaching the Gospel and winning thousands to Christ, and yet he was on friendly terms with the pope, Mormon and Muslim leaders. And a 19th Century pastor and evangelist whose sermons have blessed multitudes of people from then until now, but was a mason. As a result of the faults and failings of these preachers, they are condemned as false teachers. But is this condemnation fair? I don't think so.

The Scripture says that we have the treasure in earthen vessels, and that we have partial knowledge and those who prophesy do it partially. Also, there were OT saints who had grievous faults (Moses having fits of anger, David committing adultery and murder, Solomon marrying pagan wives, Samson having affairs with different women; yet all these were seen by God as having good hearts, One king of Israel is reported as being right with God in his heart, but not all his actions were right.

There is a major difference between a preacher or pastor whose heart is right with God, and whose desire is to glorify God but through his faults and failings sometimes gets it wrong and makes a hash of things; and the man or woman whose heart is not right with God, who is self seeking, greedy for money, and a deliberate heretic. I think we are going to have some surprises at the judgment, where the preachers we think are false turn out to be true, and those we think are true turn out to be false. How are we to know? God looks on the heart. We have seen in church history that both Arminians, who believe we can be saved today and lost tomorrow, and Calvinists who believe in once saved always saved, had very successful soul winning ministries because they preached the Gospel of Christ.

The trouble is that we tend, because of our sinful nature, to mark our own faults with a road marker, and the faults of others with a drafting pencil. When we look at a ministry those who are perfectionists, see the glass as half empty instead of half full.

A good indication is what Paul said: "If anyone comes preaching another gospel than the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." When the disciples complained about someone casting out demons who was not part of their own party, Jesus said, "Leave them alone because who is for us is not against us." Paul spoke of those who preached the Gospel out of envy and jealousy, but at least they preached the Gospel so they shouldn't be rejected as false and heretical.

So the test of a ministry is not whether they have faults or failings, but whether they are preaching the Gospel of Christ - Jesus and Him crucified and risen again., or if they are preaching another gospel and presenting another Jesus not of the Jesus of the Bible. For example, Post-Modern Liberalists don't believe in an historical Jesus, nor do they see God as a real person, but as a concept. They are preaching a gospel, not as Paul preached it, and therefore they are false and Paul said that if they come teaching a doctrine that is contrary to the doctrine of Christ, then they should be totally rejected, not greeted, or welcomed into our homes, otherwise we are being partakers of their heresies.

But a healing evangelist who preached the Gospel, did what he could to get sick people healed, but had continual battles with alcoholism, should be condemn and reject him because of his struggle with the flesh, a struggle that we all have? Or the other healing evangelist who had a gluttony problem that eventually caused his death, and yet he faithfully preached the Gospel, do we condemn him as well?

According to the Biblical evidence and church history, we see that God has used very imperfect vessels to bring the Gospel to the unconverted. This is the miracle, that vessels with sometimes serious faults and failings can bring many to Christ. This shows that it is the Song and not the singer.

Forgive me but I believe you should ask that this post be moved to Denomination Specific Theology, because this forum is primarily for the discussion of clerical issues.
 
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Forgive me but I believe you should ask that this post be moved to Denomination Specific Theology, because this forum is primarily for the discussion of clerical issues.
Good Advice. Will do. :)
 
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NBB

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We wish we were like the first churches right?? saw how many issues Paul etc had to deal with?? so yeah sometimes churches and leaders are not perfect.

I met the Holy spirit in a church were the pastor has a fame of being lets say a little on the bullying side, we don't go there anymore because he has not treated us right, but you know what?? i met God there, life changing experiences that convinced me that he existed and can be very close to people, so. He is hard working, he married his wife when she was medically left for dead, and carried her tied to him in a motorcycle when they had to travel, because she barely could stand for herself, she was healed and lived for like another 40 years.
 
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sparow

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There are many videos on Youtube criticising ministries that don't dot all the Is and cross all the Ts in their doctrine. For example, a well known healing evangelist who in later years had a vision of a 90ft Jesus telling him to raise the finance to build a hospital in his city. Yet this evangelist has preached the Gospel involving Jesus dying on the Cross for us. Another one is a new deceased world-wide evangelist who was well known for preaching the Gospel and winning thousands to Christ, and yet he was on friendly terms with the pope, Mormon and Muslim leaders. And a 19th Century pastor and evangelist whose sermons have blessed multitudes of people from then until now, but was a mason. As a result of the faults and failings of these preachers, they are condemned as false teachers. But is this condemnation fair? I don't think so.

The Scripture says that we have the treasure in earthen vessels, and that we have partial knowledge and those who prophesy do it partially. Also, there were OT saints who had grievous faults (Moses having fits of anger, David committing adultery and murder, Solomon marrying pagan wives, Samson having affairs with different women; yet all these were seen by God as having good hearts, One king of Israel is reported as being right with God in his heart, but not all his actions were right.

There is a major difference between a preacher or pastor whose heart is right with God, and whose desire is to glorify God but through his faults and failings sometimes gets it wrong and makes a hash of things; and the man or woman whose heart is not right with God, who is self seeking, greedy for money, and a deliberate heretic. I think we are going to have some surprises at the judgment, where the preachers we think are false turn out to be true, and those we think are true turn out to be false. How are we to know? God looks on the heart. We have seen in church history that both Arminians, who believe we can be saved today and lost tomorrow, and Calvinists who believe in once saved always saved, had very successful soul winning ministries because they preached the Gospel of Christ.

The trouble is that we tend, because of our sinful nature, to mark our own faults with a road marker, and the faults of others with a drafting pencil. When we look at a ministry those who are perfectionists, see the glass as half empty instead of half full.

A good indication is what Paul said: "If anyone comes preaching another gospel than the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." When the disciples complained about someone casting out demons who was not part of their own party, Jesus said, "Leave them alone because who is for us is not against us." Paul spoke of those who preached the Gospel out of envy and jealousy, but at least they preached the Gospel so they shouldn't be rejected as false and heretical.

So the test of a ministry is not whether they have faults or failings, but whether they are preaching the Gospel of Christ - Jesus and Him crucified and risen again., or if they are preaching another gospel and presenting another Jesus not of the Jesus of the Bible. For example, Post-Modern Liberalists don't believe in an historical Jesus, nor do they see God as a real person, but as a concept. They are preaching a gospel, not as Paul preached it, and therefore they are false and Paul said that if they come teaching a doctrine that is contrary to the doctrine of Christ, then they should be totally rejected, not greeted, or welcomed into our homes, otherwise we are being partakers of their heresies.

But a healing evangelist who preached the Gospel, did what he could to get sick people healed, but had continual battles with alcoholism, should be condemn and reject him because of his struggle with the flesh, a struggle that we all have? Or the other healing evangelist who had a gluttony problem that eventually caused his death, and yet he faithfully preached the Gospel, do we condemn him as well?

According to the Biblical evidence and church history, we see that God has used very imperfect vessels to bring the Gospel to the unconverted. This is the miracle, that vessels with sometimes serious faults and failings can bring many to Christ. This shows that it is the Song and not the singer.
David repented, I am not sure Solomon repented.

When preaching to the unconverted, judgement is required so as to not cast pearls before swine.
 
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Aussie Pete

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David repented, I am not sure Solomon repented.

When preaching to the unconverted, judgement is required so as to not cast pearls before swine.
"Swine" are not all the unsaved. "Swine" represent pseudo Christians. The pig is a mixture of clean and unclean attributes. Since the "unclean" aspect overrides the "clean", swine are unclean. The pig will eat anything. Clean animals "chew the cud". It has no fur, but it does have a cloven hoof. The lack of fur makes it unclean but the cloven hoof is a mark of being clean.

If you've ever had a run in with a pseudo Christian, you will know what I mean. When my marriage broke up, I was invited to listen to elders of the church I was attending and hammered without mercy. So much for "no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus". My point of view? Not required, thanks. That church has since folded and its people scattered.
 
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sparow

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"Swine" are not all the unsaved. "Swine" represent pseudo Christians. The pig is a mixture of clean and unclean attributes. Since the "unclean" aspect overrides the "clean", swine are unclean. The pig will eat anything. Clean animals "chew the cud". It has no fur, but it does have a cloven hoof. The lack of fur makes it unclean but the cloven hoof is a mark of being clean.

If you've ever had a run in with a pseudo Christian, you will know what I mean. When my marriage broke up, I was invited to listen to elders of the church I was attending and hammered without mercy. So much for "no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus". My point of view? Not required, thanks. That church has since folded and its people scattered.
I think a swine is someone who does not want to receive the renewed covenant or receive the Gospel, not that I am suggesting the two are the same; when a swine is encountered, one should shake the dust off his garment at them and keep going.
 
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David repented, I am not sure Solomon repented.

When preaching to the unconverted, judgement is required so as to not cast pearls before swine.
The only message we can preach to the unconverted is to believe the Gospel and put their trust in the bleeding Christ on the Cross who paid the penalty for their sins and rose again to give them eternal life. Until they cross the threshold of conversion to Christ and receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit, anything else will just go in one ear and out the other.
 
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The Liturgist

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David repented, I am not sure Solomon repented.

He clearly did, otherwise his works would not be canonical Scripture. Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and his other writings could not have been written by an unrepentant man.
 
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The Liturgist

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We wish we were like the first churches right?? saw how many issues Paul etc had to deal with?? so yeah sometimes churches and leaders are not perfect.

I think the best time to be a Christian was between the Edict of Milan and the rise of an Arian hegemony in opposition to the Church under Emperor Constantius, the son of St. Constantine, who fell under the influence of the sinister bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia.
 
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The only message we can preach to the unconverted is to believe the Gospel and put their trust in the bleeding Christ on the Cross who paid the penalty for their sins and rose again to give them eternal life. Until they cross the threshold of conversion to Christ and receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit, anything else will just go in one ear and out the other.
The tone of Ecclesiastes show repentance and a renewed trust in God.
 
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