Motivation in Morality

Treeplanter

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This is where the subjectivity of morality comes into play. So it all depends on who is defining the standards of morality. I guess another way to look at it is, are criminals who are sentenced to community service moral people because they’re being forced to help the community? If it’s against their will then the answer is no they’re not.
So you agree with me that in order for a moral agent, himself, to qualify as either a good or evil person - his motivations and reasons must be taken into account
 
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Clare73

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No, Clare, we have NOT "covered this"
You're not keeping up. . .see post #464.

My reasons have been provided.
It's not necessary for me that you agree with them, nor does your disgreement with them have any bearing on them.
 
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Clare73

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If you have no answers -
why do you keep replying?
"Physician, heal thyself."
Proverbs 17:28
"Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding"
Got a mirror?
 
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Treeplanter

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You're not keeping up. . .see post #464.

My reasons have been provided.
It's not necessary for me that you agree with them, nor does your disgreement with them have any bearing on them.
Your post #464:

"Okay, you are mixing the two laws of the analogy: the law of God and the law of man.

In the law of man, because of the U.S. Constitution, no law can exist in the U.S. with authority to force one to be part of the family business.

In the law of God, you are not dealing with the U.S. Consitution, you are dealing with the
Creator, Owner, Sole Propietor, Ruler, Lawgiver, Judge of the Universe and
who, as such, does have authority to hold you accountable according to his law, which is:
just as you are powerless to remove yourself from your race, and must remain subject to conditions of that race (skin color, racial features),
so you are powerless to remove yourself from the family business (sin) and are subject to the conditions of that business (responsibility for debt).

Our ways are not God's ways (Isaiah 55:8-9)"


All I see you saying here is that God can do whatever He wants because He is God and that we have no right to morally judge Him because we are not God

What I want to know is WHY YOU BELIEVE that creatorship and ownership and sole proprietorship and rulership and law givership and being the judge of the universe confers moral impunity to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others?

Don't tell me that it's already "been covered" because it has not!
Don't tell me that "reasons have been provided" because they have not!
 
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Clare73

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All I see you saying here is that God can do whatever He wants because He is God and that we have no right to morally judge Him because we are not God
What I want to know is WHY YOU BELIEVE that creatorship and ownership and sole proprietorship and rulership and law givership and being the judge of the universe confers moral impunity to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others?

Don't tell me that it's already "been covered" because it has not!
Don't tell me that "reasons have been provided" because they have not!
My reasons cannot be understood by you because they lie in the Holy Spirit, of whom athiests have no personal knowledge, nor whom they can empirically measure.
Nor is it necessary for me that you agree with my reasons, nor does your disgreement with them have any bearing on them.
 
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Treeplanter

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My reasons have been provided.
It's not necessary for me that you agree with them, nor does your disgreement with them have any bearing on them.
No, Clare - your reasons have NOT been provided!

All you have done is to assert that God is morally free to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon us because He is creator, owner, etc, but you have NOT explained how and why creatorship, ownership, etc provides moral impunity to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon others!

Why do you think it is morally justified to consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon a sentient being that you have created and 'own'?


Look, I agree with you, Clare

God has the power to consciously and purposefully inflict all the needless harm upon us that He desires and there is absolutely NOTHING we can do about it

This does not mean, though, that we must call Him {and the needless harm He inflicts} good
 
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Clare73

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No, Clare - your reasons have NOT been provided!
My reasons cannot be understood by you because they lie in the Holy Spirit, of whom athiests have no personal knowledge, nor whom they can empirically measure.
 
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Treeplanter

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My reasons cannot be understood by you because they lie in the Holy Spirit, of whom athiests have no personal knowledge, nor whom they can empirically measure.
That's a cop-out, Clare

Whether I am capable of understanding your reasons or not is irrelevant to your refusal to provide your reasons

Beyond that, why don't you give me your reasons and THEN we'll determine whether or not they have been understood by me?

In the meantime, your refusal to offer anything by way of reason looks suspiciously as if you have none to offer...
 
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Clare73

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That's a cop-out, Clare

Whether I am capable of understanding your reasons or not is irrelevant to your refusal to provide your reasons.

Beyond that, why don't you give me your reasons and THEN we'll determine whether or not they have been understood by me?
In the meantime, your refusal to offer anything by way of reason looks suspiciously as if you have none to offer...
That would be: no reason to offer that you can understand or empiracally measure and verify.

Our understandings cannot meet because they stand on radically different grounds, whereupon my reasons are knowable and familiar to many through the ages and to this day, but not knowable on your grounds.

That being the case, we have no means of coming to a common understanding (i.e., why?) here, thereby making your effort to do so an exercise in futility.
 
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Treeplanter

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That would be: no reason to offer that you can understand or empiracally measure and verify.

Our understandings cannot meet because they stand on radically different grounds, whereupon my reasons are knowable and familiar to many through the ages and to this day, but not knowable on your grounds.

That being the case, we have no means of coming to a common understanding (i.e., why?) here, thereby making your effort to do so an exercise in futility.
Put yourself in my shoes, Clare

What if I claimed to know something and could tell you what it is, but I refused to do so because you "could not possibly understand"?

What would you think?
Would you buy that nonsense?

I don't understand why you engage in conversation with unbelievers if you're not even going to try to communicate

If, as you claim, it is impossible for our understandings to meet - then why are you here?
 
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Clare73

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Put yourself in my shoes, Clare

What if I claimed to know something and could tell you what it is, but I refused to do so because you "could not possibly understand"?

What would you think?
Would you buy that nonsense?

I don't understand why you engage in conversation with unbelievers if you're not even going to try to communicate.
If, as you claim, it is impossible for our understandings to meet - then why are you here?
If you reject the Christian God, why are you in a Christian Forum?

Are you hoping to be persuaded?
 
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Treeplanter

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If you reject the Christian God, why are you in a Christian Forum?

Are you hoping to be persuaded?
I am here hoping to persuade you to stop worshiping the Christian God on the basis that He is utterly unworthy of our devotion due His immoral behavior

Why are you here?
 
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Clare73

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I am here hoping to persuade you to stop worshiping the Christian God on the basis that He is utterly unworthy of our devotion.
One man's soup is another man's poison.

We've covered this. . .

I have food to eat that you know nothing about (John 4:32).
Why are you here?
To inform atheists that there is a judgment coming, and to get their "house" in order before it's too late.

"The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. . .His winnowing fork is in his hand and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:10-12).

"He who has ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 11:15)

Do you have ears that can hear these things?
 
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Treeplanter

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One man's soup is another man's poison.

We've covered this. . .

I have food to eat that you know nothing about (John 4:32).

To inform atheists that there is a judgment coming, and to get their "house" in order before it's too late.

"The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. . .His winnowing fork is in his hand and he will clear his thresing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire." (Matthew 3:10-12).

"He who has ears to hear, let him hear." (Matthew 11:15)

Do you have ears that can hear these things?
The 'food' that you choose to eat is poisonous, Clare
Calling it soup doesn't change the fact that it is harmful

It's really quite simple:
To consciously and purposefully impose needless harm upon another is immoral
God consciously and purposefully inflicts needless harm upon us

{Choosing to hold us accountable for Adam's actions and, as a consequence, creating us with sinful natures that inevitably compel us to sin thus warranting our eternal damnation is just one of many examples}

To consciously and purposefully look towards an immoral source for moral guidance is harmful to both the individual and to those with whom said individual interacts

It's harmful to humanity, itself, Clare

You know full well that God is guilty of behavior that you would never, ever condone being committed by a man

{example: you insist that God holding us accountable for Adam's millennia old 'crime' is good and just, but you refuse to call it good and just were you to be held accountable by a human judge and sent to prison for a crime that your great grandfather committed decades before you were born...}

Why is that?

Why do you make an exception for God?

Why do you hold God {who is supposed to be perfect} to a lower standard than to which you hold me, yourself, and every other human being?

Thus far, despite asserting multiple times that you have already provided your reasons, you have refused to provide an answer

If, as you claim, you are here to "inform atheists that there is a judgment coming, and to get their "house" in order before it's too late" then I would think that you would happily explain to me the thought process by which God is to be called good and just despite His immorally inflicting conscious, purposeful, needless harm upon us so that I, too, might see the light and accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior before it's too late!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Consider this:

Were I to donate my time and energy helping to feed the hungry at a soup kitchen, I think we can all agree that this would be a good and moral thing
Why should I agree that that is a moral thing?

Regardless of my motivation/reason for being there - it is a moral ACTION because there is good coming from it, right?
Well, that depends.

Hungry people are being fed
That's good
... maybe. Maybe not. We can just as easily say that when a lioness attacks, kills and delivers the carcass of an antelope to her pride, that is a moral action; and more than that, cute lion cubs are, one way or another, being fed.

It is my contention, though, that my status as a moral PERSON hinges entirely upon my motivation/reason for undertaking said action
Maybe. But the lioness has a reason for killing the antelope, a good reason really.

If I help to feed the hungry primarily because I care about people and I desire to alleviate their suffering and to benefit their lives then I am a moral person on the basis of doing so
Maybe. But the lioness desires to kill an antelope to benefit the lives of her pride, and she is acting within the moral order when she does so.

If, on the other hand, I help to feed the hungry primarily because my boss at work is pressuring me to do so and I am angling for a promotion then I am NOT a moral person on the basis of donating my time and energy to a soup kitchen[/qutoe] Yes, if on the other hand, the lioness simply kills and kills again, and perhaps even enjoys that action, one antelope after another and another, then why might (maybe?) question her acting as a consistent moral agents with the rest of the lions among whom she lives who only kill when needed.

[qutoe]Agree?
Disagree?
Thoughts?
Monetary donations? {PM me and I'll give you an address}
I agree to disagree with you when giving you my thoughts; and in saying this, I'm kind of thinking that I won't charge you for any free advice I may have to give to you ... :rolleyes:
 
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Clare73

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The 'food' that you choose to eat is poisonous, Clare
Calling it soup doesn't change the fact that it is harmful
Thanks for confirming that one man's soup is another man's poison.

We've covered this.
It's really quite simple:
To consciously and purposefully impose needless harm upon another is immoral
God consciously and purposefully inflicts needless harm upon us
Treated in posts #450, #464, #509.

And not only that, his own Son agreed to come and subject himself to a horribly cruel, bloody and excruciting death also purposely willed by God.

If I didn' know better (and come to think of it, maybe I don't), it's almost as though God is guaranteeing that
smug moral self-righteousness will find nothing appealing in him.
{Choosing to hold us accountable for Adam's actions and, as a consequence, creating us with sinful natures that inevitably compel us to sin thus warranting our eternal damnation is just one of many examples}

To consciously and purposefully look towards an immoral source for moral guidance is harmful to both the individual and to those with whom said individual interacts
It's harmful to humanity, itself, Clare
Review the thread. . .we've covered this
(no legal standing for the charge).
You know full well that God is guilty of behavior that you would never, ever condone being committed by a man

{example: you insist that God holding us accountable for Adam's millennia old 'crime' is good and just, but you refuse to call it good and just were you to be held accountable by a human judge and sent to prison for a crime that your great grandfather committed decades before you were born...}

Why is that?

Why do you make an exception for God?

Why do you hold God {who is supposed to be perfect} to a lower standard than to which you hold me, yourself, and every other human being?

Thus far, despite asserting multiple times that you have already provided your reasons, you have refused to provide an answer

If, as you claim, you are here to "inform atheists that there is a judgment coming, and to get their "house" in order before it's too late" then I would think that you would happily explain to me the thought process by which God is to be called good and just despite His immorally inflicting conscious, purposeful, needless harm upon us so
that I, too, might see the light and accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior before it's too late!
You have to go to Jesus with a receiving heart to be able to see that.

It takes eyes that can see.

I can only inform you of the fact.
 
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Mark Quayle

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So if you wanted to, you could spend the remainder of your life without ever sinning again?
Ha! Yes, if I wanted to enough! But obviously I don't.

Can you tell me a scenario where anybody did anything they didn't want, in that moment of decision, to do? Christ didn't want to die, but he wanted something else more than he wanted not to die.

Hold a gun to my head, I might do something I never thought I would do, if only for that instant to keep from dying.
 
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Mark Quayle

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To consciously and purposefully inflict needless harm upon another is immoral
Are you claiming this is bogus?

For whom to inflict it?
Upon another what?
Needless harm?? Says who???

God consciously and purposefully inflicts needless harm upon us
{among other things, God chose to create us with sinful natures that inevitably compel sin}
Are you claiming this is bogus?

Yes, bogus. God does not inflict needless harm.
 
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