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Most OT prophetic passages futurists *think* are about the End Times, aren't

keras

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The reason the sixth seal event is not a CME is because the sun is one of millions of stars and does not affect the other stars, the closest of which is light years away.
A Coronal Mass Ejection is the only natural event that can and will cause all the prophesied things about that Day.
The 'stars' referred to in Revelation 6:13 are our satellites. They will all crash back to the earth by the CME pressure wave, which will also push aside the atmosphere. Like a scroll.

Your placement of the Sixth Seal at the Return, is wrong and constitutes a shuffling of the Words of Revelation.
 
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Douggg

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A Coronal Mass Ejection is the only natural event that can and will cause all the prophesied things about that Day.
The 'stars' referred to in Revelation 6:13 are our satellites. They will all crash back to the earth by the CME pressure wave, which will also push aside the atmosphere. Like a scroll.

Your placement of the Sixth Seal at the Return, is wrong and constitutes a shuffling of the Words of Revelation.

And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Heaven will be rolled up like a scroll. The sun does not have the power to roll up heaven.

If a CME pushed the atmosphere away from the earth, everyone on earth would quickly die with the lack of air to breath.

My placement of the Sixth Seal corresponds to Matthew 24:29-30.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 
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eclipsenow

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Please cease jumping to wrong conclusions. Your desperate attempts to denigrate the Prophets, rebounds onto you.
Everyone can read Revelation 6:12-17.
The Sixth Seal will be a worldwide disaster, it will change most everything and set the scene for a One World Govt, as prophesied. The Middle East region; all of the holy Land will be virtually depopulated, as many prophesies make clear. Deuteronomy 32:34-43
Nice diversion but seriously answer the question for once will you?
Is Rev 6 literal or not?
Does it fit into your little CME timetable or not?

How does this stuff fit, literally?

"every mountain and island was removed from its place."

Also, how does a CME look like the very face of God?

“Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Ancient of Days.
Lamb.
Face.

Yet you want to turn THEM into a mere localised nuke-fest?
 
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keras

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How does this stuff fit, literally?

"every mountain and island was removed from its place."
Tectonic plate shift.
Caused by the microwave penetration of a CME. Deuteronomy 32:22
Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
The Lord will not be seen on His Day of fiery wrath. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4, +
 
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eclipsenow

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Tectonic plate shift.
Caused by the microwave penetration of a CME. Deuteronomy 32:22

The amount of thermal a worldwide sudden tectonic plate shift of that magnitude would cause would probably flash-fry all life on earth. Also, if you're going to read ALL that chapter literally - what about Jacob? Did Jacob ride the land? "He made him ride on the heights of the land and fed him with the fruit of the fields." :oldthumbsup: :doh:

32:22 a fire is kindled . . . to the depths of Sheol.
For the figure of God’s anger as a consuming fire, see Ps. 21:9; Jer. 15:14; 17:4. The poetic figure here represents God’s wrath as an all-devouring fire that burns to the deepest grave, consumes the surface of the earth, and reaches to the roots of the mountains.
Deut 32:22 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway

The Lord will not be seen on His Day of fiery wrath. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4, +
I'm sorry, but you've just destroyed the bible.
Revelation 6 says he WILL be seen.
Are you saying the bible contradicts itself?
 
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keras

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The amount of thermal a worldwide sudden tectonic plate shift of that magnitude would cause would probably flash-fry all life on earth.
It probably won't take very much microwave penetration at all. Think of the San Andreas fault in California; all set and ready to rip.
New Zealand's active zones are a big worry, too.
Australia? Maybe you should have a hideout in the Blue Mountains.
Revelation 6 says he WILL be seen.
Are you saying the bible contradicts itself?
YOU contradict the Bible.
Revelation 6:12-17 does not say anyone actually sees God or Jesus on that Day. Just because they will say: Hide us from His Face, it doesn't mean His face is visible. Proved by the several verses which tell us He will not be seen. The Lord remains in heaven; Psalms 11:4-6 He SENDS this fire; Amos 1 & 2:1-5
 
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eclipsenow

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It probably won't take very much microwave penetration at all. Think of the San Andreas fault in California; all set and ready to rip.
Read the verse.
Every mountain in the world.
Got it?

YOU contradict the Bible.
Revelation 6:12-17 does not say anyone actually sees God or Jesus on that Day. Just because they will say: Hide us from His Face, it doesn't mean His face is visible. Proved by the several verses which tell us He will not be seen. The Lord remains in heaven; Psalms 11:4-6 He SENDS this fire; Amos 1 & 2:1-5

This is quite simply the end of the world.
You just don't like it because it messes up your timeline.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”
In your weird interpretation, they wouldn't be talking about the Ancient of Days and Jesus. The world leaders would be crying out, "Quick, to the bunker - at least until this solar thing burns off! A week or so and we'll have withstood it!" Your reading of it is so influenced by Sci-Fi and so God-less that anyone could just call it an astronomical event.

Their wrath becomes solar thing
Who can withstand becomes anyone with a bunker

You've completely destroyed Rev 6. As the IVP commentary says:

What is striking in the book of Revelation—and strange, perhaps, to the modern reader—is that the wrath is the wrath of the Lamb (v. 16). The slaughtered Lamb of sacrifice in the center of the throne is no passive victim, but "the Lion of the tribe of Judah." The Lamb's role in judgment should come as no surprise in light of his equality and partnership with him who sits on the throne in the worship of the elders, living creatures and all creation (5:13). From that point on, God and the Lamb never act independently, but always in unison. When they act together in judgment, the inevitable question is, Who can stand? (v. 17).

The question has its answer in chapter 7, where John sees four angels standing at the corners of the earth to preserve a group of servants of our God from destruction (7:1, 3) and an innumerable multitude standing in the presence of God and the Lamb (7:9). There are indeed those who will "stand" in the great day of wrath, but they must be prepared and protected.
The Great Day of Wrath (6:12-17) - IVP New Testament Commentary Series - Bible Gateway
 
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keras

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Read the verse.
Every mountain in the world.
If you actually read my posts, I always say: the whole world will be affected.
This is quite simply the end of the world.
But the Sixth Seal is not and cannot be the final event. There is all of Revelation 7 to 19:10 which must happen before Jesus Returns.
anyone could just call it an astronomical event.
That is just what most people will call it: A natural event.
That is why they still fail to acknowledge God and the secular peoples will form a One World Govt, then end up worshipping the leader and taking his mark.

We have been over why Bible Commentaries are useless.
Either just say its your opinion or prove your stance with scripture.
 
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eclipsenow

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If you actually read my posts, I always say: the whole world will be affected.
Ha ha ha - oh man - ha ha ha.
I thought you said you were over your 2012 failed prophecy - but it appears you've borrowed from both "Knowing" and "2012" in your 'eschatology'.

But the Sixth Seal is not and cannot be the final event. There is all of Revelation 7 to 19:10 which must happen before Jesus Returns.
Which is why Revelation is a waltz through various themes, constantly and repeatedly reminding us of the gospel promise of Jesus return, and not a timeline. It simply isn't. It's a sermon to suffering Christians. All of it.

That is just what most people will call it: A natural event.
(Sighs)
THEN it does exactly what I said it does - breaks Revelation Chapter 6.
Are you reading this literally or not?
Are you even taking this conversation seriously or not?
You're so off-kilter right now I'm about to call Poe's Law.


15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”

Where else in Revelation do we see the rich, the mighty, the generals and princes all gathered for a last battle? Yep. The end. And just in case we didn't get the message, John replays it for us 3 times from 3 different perspectives. This assembly of the world's most powerful is yet another example of how what we consider power will be cowering and terrified on Judgement Day - and how all encompassing it is.

They really are seeing the Ancient of Days and the Lamb.
They really are calling for the Mountains to fall on them - not running for their bunkers!
And no one can stand - except those already saved as we see in the very next chapter.
This is the end of the world - and you're in denial.

And you pretend the princes and rich and mighty call it a natural event?
I'm not laughing now. This is just sad.

We have been over why Bible Commentaries are useless.
Either just say its your opinion or prove your stance with scripture.
They're a vastly better start than someone who cannot tell the difference between Israel being cursed with warfare and fire, and Israel being blessed with abundant rain and brightness!
 
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parousia70

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Jesus is the one coming like a thief, so I believe He knows.

And In Revelation 3:3, Jesus Informs the first century people at Sardis that His thief's coming would befall THEM, Back then.

Was He Mistaken?
 
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Timtofly

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So you're using short accusatory questions to avoid the hard work of making a proposition and justifying it with reasonable data again? A lot of people are firing questions at me right now - it would be polite for you to summarise what on earth you are talking about and not resort to your usual 'jab' of a short trite question.
You totally did not address this post:

Explain these verses:

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Did he overcome the saints and claimed all authority on earth?

"In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
 
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keras

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And In Revelation 3:3, Jesus Informs the first century people at Sardis that His thief's coming would befall THEM, Back then.

Was He Mistaken?
No. But Jesus didn't come then, either.
His 'coming as a thief', refers to The Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath.
Which has not yet happened.
When Jesus Returns in power and glory, it won't be unexpected.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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A Coronal Mass Ejection is the only natural event that can and will cause all the prophesied things about that Day.
Why does it have to be natural? God can do things however He wants. Do you think the fire and brimstone that came down on Sodom and Gomorrah was caused by a natural event or by God supernaturally sending fire and brimstone down upon them?

The 'stars' referred to in Revelation 6:13 are our satellites. They will all crash back to the earth by the CME pressure wave, which will also push aside the atmosphere. Like a scroll.
LOL.

Your placement of the Sixth Seal at the Return, is wrong and constitutes a shuffling of the Words of Revelation.
After the sixth seal is opened it says in Revelation 6:17 "the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?". How can the day of the Lamb's wrath not refer to His return? It's referring to the same event as the following which is clearly referring to His return:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The above is clearly describing the wrath of the Lamb and what is described in the sixth seal indicates that His wrath is at hand at that point. So, that means His return is at hand at that point. He is not going to descend from heaven more than once in the future.
 
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parousia70

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No. But Jesus didn't come then, either.
So, what? He outright Lied to them?
His 'coming as a thief', refers to The Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath.
OK
Which has not yet happened.
And Yet Jesus promised the first century Christians at Sardis it would in fact happen TO THEM, BACK THEN.
I get that you need this scripture not to be true, Bu here it is anyway:

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
 
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eclipsenow

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No. But Jesus didn't come then, either.
His 'coming as a thief', refers to The Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath.
Which has not yet happened.
When Jesus Returns in power and glory, it won't be unexpected.
No - HIS return is like a thief - you know - when Jesus himself returns, not a mere astronomical event. Which is what you still haven't dealt with from Rev 6
 
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eclipsenow

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Why does it have to be natural? God can do things however He wants. Do you think the fire and brimstone that came down on Sodom and Gomorrah was caused by a natural event or by God supernaturally sending fire and brimstone down upon them?

LOL.

After the sixth seal is opened it says in Revelation 6:17 "the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?". How can the day of the Lamb's wrath not refer to His return? It's referring to the same event as the following which is clearly referring to His return:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The above is clearly describing the wrath of the Lamb and what is described in the sixth seal indicates that His wrath is at hand at that point. So, that means His return is at hand at that point. He is not going to descend from heaven more than once in the future.
But you can't go and point out that on many occasions Revelation refers to our gospel hope of Jesus return - because that would imply Keras's whole presupposition about Revelation is wrong. That would imply it isn't a literal future timeline, but is a series of thematic sermons. We can't have that! :oldthumbsup:

(And yes, stars falling to heaven are satellites? LOL is the only reply. Good grief! :doh:The atmosphere being blown away? Honestly - who is left to form Keras's precious one world government after a catastrophe like that? This guy keeps contradicting himself with every next post, let alone ignoring what Revelation 6 actually says)
 
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keras

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Why does it have to be natural? God can do things however He wants. Do you think the fire and brimstone that came down on Sodom and Gomorrah was caused by a natural event or by God supernaturally sending fire and brimstone down upon them?
It seems, from the archeological evidence that what destroyed Sodom, was a volcanic eruption. It was in the Rift valley, a tectonic plate break.

The Sixth Seal event has to be a natural event, so as the secular survivors can still deny God. They will form a One World Govt, as prophesied.
How can the day of the Lamb's wrath not refer to His return?
2 Thess 1:6-10 is also about the Lord's Day of wrath. Proved by how it is only to His people, that He is revealed, soon after that Day.
He is not going to descend from heaven more than once in the future.
Right, Jesus doesn't actually come down from heaven on His terrible Day of fiery wrath. He SENDS His punishment: Psalms 11:4-6, Amos 1:1-15, Amos 2:1-5, the same as He did with Israel's ancient enemies: Psalms 83:9-18
So, what? He outright Lied to them?
Being more circumspect with your comments, would be good for you and for us.
It is actually quite clear that Jesus meant the generation of people who DO see all those prophesied things. So far only Matthew 24:1-11 has happened.
Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.
All of the seven Letters to the Church's are for all Christians thru this age and Jesus' warning of a surprise event, has not occurred yet.
It has had the effect of keeping His people spiritually ready at all times.
No - HIS return is like a thief - you know - when Jesus himself returns, not a mere astronomical event. Which is what you still haven't dealt with from Rev 6
There will be more signs in the sky when Jesus does Return: Matthew 24:29. But note well; that His wrath is over by then. Revelation 15:1
(And yes, stars falling to heaven are satellites? LOL is the only reply. Good grief! :doh:The atmosphere being blown away? Honestly - who is left to form Keras's precious one world government after a catastrophe like that? This guy keeps contradicting himself with every next post, let alone ignoring what Revelation 6 actually says)
If you quoted what I actually have said, it would be a nice change.
The ONLY objects which can fulfil the 'stars falling like ripe figs' at the Sixth Seal event, are our thousands of satellites.
The atmosphere will simply be parted and pushed aside, above the point of impact of this massive CME. The rest of the world will be fine and the atmosphere will quickly recover.

What Revelation 6:12-17 actually says? You have yet to show how it proves your weird and unproveable beliefs.
 
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eclipsenow

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The Sixth Seal event has to be a natural event, so as the secular survivors can still deny God. They will form a One World Govt, as prophesied.
Except that Daniel was probably talking about Rome (which proves the point of this thread).

And Rev 13 is a sermon about not worshipping military might or the state or economic wealth - not a literal mark - or in Rev 14 are we call getting literal tattoos on our heads in heaven?

So there's no need for a OWG and all that silly Sci-Fi Tim LaHaye junk - Rev 6 isn't about that. It's saying - in apocalyptic metaphor (Lamb) - that God and Jesus are returning and it's the end of the world. Who can stand? No-one! No-one except those already in Christ - as the next chapter shows.

Sorry, but you're just plain wrong.
Your whole approach is wrong.
Now the Lord could return tonight and end human history - and your precious timetable will not happen. Or he could return in a thousand generations (see what I did there)? We just don't know.

Either way, your time table and every futurist timetable is invalid, unhelpful, and ultimately could prove disastrous especially if they have dates on them and fail.

15 Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16 They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”​

This Johnny Cash song has more theology in it than your timetable. Eschatology isn't about what happens before the end - it's about what has already happened in the past to secure our future. It isn't about some End Times Table, but how we are to live in these last days (2000 years and counting.) And ultimately, it's about what happens when THE MAN COMES AROUND - and you've just nerfed Revelation 6 - one of the most frightening verses about THE MAN COMING AROUND - and turned it to a mere Middle East nuke-fest. How sad
 
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DavidPT

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If you quoted what I actually have said, it would be a nice change.
The ONLY objects which can fulfil the 'stars falling like ripe figs' at the Sixth Seal event, are our thousands of satellites.
The atmosphere will simply be parted and pushed aside, above the point of impact of this massive CME. The rest of the world will be fine and the atmosphere will quickly recover.

What Revelation 6:12-17 actually says? You have yet to show how it proves your weird and unproveable beliefs.

Most articles I have read about falling satellites indicate it could take decades before they hit earth, assuming they are not entirely burned up by then.

The following is an article I found. I quoted most of it below, not all of it. Not a very lengthy article.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What If Every Satellite Fell to Earth?

What would a crashing satellite do to the Earth? How many satellites would come falling down? And why could this last for decades?

Currently, there are over 5,000 satellites in orbit. That number is expected to, at least, double by 2025. And that doesn’t include all of the 12,000 satellites SpaceX’s Starlink program plans to launch by 2027. So, nearly 20,000 satellites in space by the end of the decade? What would happen if they all came crashing down?

If 20,000 satellites were falling to Earth, it wouldn’t happen instantly. That’s because the satellites’ speed and positions in space could make some of them take longer to come crashing down. If a satellite was 1,000 km (621 mi) above the Earth’s atmosphere, it might take over 100 years before it finally fell to the ground.

So all these satellites falling to Earth would be a long, drawn-out process. Luckily for us, when they do finally fall on Earth, a lot of them will get burned up by our atmosphere. But that still doesn’t mean we’d be completely safe.

But if 20,000 satellites fell to Earth, they’d go wherever they please. Many of them would dive into the oceans, since they take up 71% of our Earth. But lots of these satellites would end up on land.

These satellites could destroy entire buildings and towns, as they’d be traveling at speeds up to 28,000 km/h (17,400 mph.) Even if small chunks of satellites managed to hit the ground, their shockwaves could cause considerable damage. The kinetic energy of all these satellites hitting Earth would be like dropping nuclear bombs.

And another similarity these satellites have with nuclear bombs? Many of them would be radioactive. Lots of satellites are nuclear powered, and there’s a chance that when they come crashing down to Earth they could still be radioactive, causing even more harm to the planet after they hit it.

After decades, when all the satellites finally came crashing down, Earth would look like it had been hit by thousands of nukes. But luckily, the chances of something like this happening are incredibly low. The only real possibility of it happening would be if Earth were hit by a solar storm. And if that were to happen, falling satellites would be the least of our worries.
What If Every Satellite Fell to Earth? | What If Show
 
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Acts29

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And In Revelation 3:3, Jesus Informs the first century people at Sardis that His thief's coming would befall THEM, Back then.

Was He Mistaken?

He was not mistaken. The letters to the seven churches have nothing to do with those ancient churches. Those churches will exist again during the time of the end. THEN the letters will apply. The letters are addressed to the ANGEL of the church. The Holy Spirit marks those who are His today. Jesus is the light of the world as long as He is in it. Night will come when He leaves the world in the tribulation. That is why angels take over guiding the churches for a short time. Most don't understand eternity and thus do not understand how God speaks outside of time. He doesn't speak like man. Prophecies never apply immediately, but most cannot comprehend that.

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
John 9:4 I must work the works of Him who sent Me while it is day; the night is coming when no one can work.

This is way off topic so I would prefer not to argue about this here. Thanks.
 
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