Most OT prophetic passages futurists *think* are about the End Times, aren't

[Timtofly]

Jesus is the one coming like a thief, so I believe He knows. Paul explains that Jesus will not come as a thief upon the righteous. 1 Thess 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.

Jesus will know when He opens the 6th Seal.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes it could - with the pandemic slowly fading away, hopefully a Glasgow agreement on climate change, and peace and prosperity in our time.
(Nevertheless, beware! Because it will be like in the days of Noah - with people saying "peace, peace".... weddings, post-Covid catch ups, etc. And not an AOD in sight!)

There will only be an AOD after the Second Coming.

 

[DavidPT]

There will only be an AOD after the Second Coming.

That is far-fetched beyond belief. I doubt you can find one single person on this planet that agrees with that.

 

[RandyPNW]

There is not one single mention of Antiochus 4 anywhere in the Bible, yet many of you seem to find him all over the OT. You would think if he is really that relevant, the Bible would have at least mentioned his name.

Daniel prophesied about future characters, and it would not be likely that their names would be provided *in advance* of their being born! I don't believe that even *Jesus'* name was given in advance?

When you say "many of you," you are referring to perhaps the majority of Christian scholars in history with a conservative viewpoint. Do you have any sense of the ratio of those who saw Antiochus 4 in these pages with those who didn't see him in these pages?

I suggest that the vast majority of conservative scholars saw Antiochus 4 in the pages of Daniel, particularly in chs. 8 and 11. Frankly, I don't know how else they could be viewed?

There are time markers in the book of Daniel. In ch 12 there is no time marker. But there is one in chapter 11 verse 1---Also I in the first year of Darius the Mede. That seems to tell us these 2 chapters are connected.

Yes, fortunately, there are "markers" that help us follow the thoughts of the author. The scholars I read connect 11.1 with chapter 10. The chapter divisions of the Bible were obviously not in the original autographs.

Then there is Daniel 12:1 that begins like such--And at that time. You and I have already had this debate over at BF in the past.

Yes, I'm happy to continue the discussion here.

Something previously mentioned has to be explaining at what time in particular is meant. No one begins a sentence in that manner unless there is previous context explaining at what time is meant. There is no verse in Daniel 12 preceding verse 1, but there is Daniel 11. That obviously has to mean that at that time is involving what is recorded at the end of ch 11 and that the events have to fit with the time of a resurrection of the dead soon following.

I agree. Although there were no original chapter and verses in the autographs, ch. 11 certainly precedes ch. 12! The history of the competition between Syria and Egypt, as it concerned Israel, certainly led up to the rise of Rome and to the final tribulation of the Jewish People under that Kingdom. Dan 12.1 speaks of the "great tribulation" of the Jewish People, which Jesus explained would begin with the fall of the temple (70 AD).

It is ludicrous that there was a resurrection of the dead in Antiochus 4's day.

The passage, under my interpretation, would not be saying that the resurrection is synonymous with Antiochus' day! Under my interpretation, the "great tribulation" of the Jewish People, which is throughout the NT age, is associated with the resurrection of the Christians, which takes place at the *end* of this period.

Therefore, the end of ch 11 couldn't possibly involve Antiochus 4 or any other ancient person for that matter since that contradicts Daniel 12:2. But who cares about contradictions, right? Let's just ignore any contradictions and keep insisting that someone fits that couldn't possibly fit.

Then please don't ignore the real point I'm making here, which is obviously *not* contradictory. Daniel describes the history of the conflict between Syria and Egypt, as it concerned Israel, and concludes, in part, with Antiochus 4.

This leads up to the NT era, which is described as a "great tribulation" for the Jewish People. And this period, the NT era, indeed ends with the resurrection of the saints. There is no contradiction in this!

As a side note, I have to say that I've had to visit several forums to continue my discussions of these issues. And I do find a number of "friends" from BF have migrated to different forums. I'm quite happy to continue discussing these matters, particularly with more "witnesses" to what is actually being argued.

 

[keras]

I suggest that the vast majority of conservative scholars saw Antiochus 4 in the pages of Daniel, particularly in chs. 8 and 11. Frankly, I don't know how else they could be viewed?

We get the information about how and when Antiochus 4th desecrated the Temple in; 2 Maccabees 6:1-9

 

[Timtofly]

That is far-fetched beyond belief. I doubt you can find one single person on this planet that agrees with that.

Either Christ sets up His throne in a temple or the Jews set up Christ's throne in a temple.

Which is more believable?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Either Christ sets up His throne in a temple or the Jews set up Christ's throne in a temple.

Which is more believable?

Neither one is believable at all.

 

[Christian Gedge]

There will only be an AOD after the Second Coming.

That would be when you get to heaven and a big tough angel loses his temper and whacks you on the ear.

 

[Timtofly]

Neither one is believable at all.

I am sure you do not believe Christ has an earthly throne. Satan will symbolically one day sit on the GWT, in your believable interpretation of all the verses that claim he will.

Surely Satan cannot be sitting in believer's "temples" while symbolically being bound unable to do just that.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I am sure you do not believe Christ has an earthly throne.

That's correct.

Satan will symbolically one day sit on the GWT, in your believable interpretation of all the verses that claim he will.

What in the world are you talking about?

Surely Satan cannot be sitting in believer's "temples" while symbolically being bound unable to do just that.

I have no idea of what you were attempting to say here. Is English not your first language?

 

[eclipsenow]

There is no verse in Daniel 12 preceding verse 1, but there is Daniel 11. That obviously has to mean that at that time is involving what is recorded at the end of ch 11 and that the events have to fit with the time of a resurrection of the dead soon following. It is ludicrous that there was a resurrection of the dead in Antiochus 4's day. Therefore, the end of ch 11 couldn't possibly involve Antiochus 4 or any other ancient person for that matter since that contradicts Daniel 12:2. But who cares about contradictions, right? Let's just ignore any contradictions and keep insisting that someone fits that couldn't possibly fit.

This 'contradiction' as you put it is included in the OP. I never said NO OT prophecy is about the last day, just most are not. Here, I made it red...

Paul Williamson teaches Old Testament at Moore Theological College - in America he would be called a Professor of OT. He says:-

While the Old Testament portrays God as the righteous judge of all the earth (cf. Gen 18:25; 1Sam 2:10; 1Chr 16:33) who holds both individuals and nations accountable for their actions (e.g., Deut 32:41; Psa 110:6; Job 19:29; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; Ezek 33:20; Jer 25:31; Joel 3:2), such divine judgment — often referred to as “the day of the LORD” or simply “that day” — is usually confined to the historical realm (i.e., military overthrow, physical curse and/or death); seldom, if ever, does it refer to a final, eschatological or eternal judgment. Some texts may arguably allude to such (e.g., Psa 1:5; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; 12:14), but the closest we get to a final assize in the Old Testament is the scene in Daniel 7, where the Ancient of Days presides over a heavenly court at which books are opened, the terrifying fourth beast is destroyed in blazing fire, and the eternal kingdom is given to God’s holy people. Arguably the same scenario is portrayed somewhat differently in Daniel 12, where those sleeping in the dust of the earth awake — some to glory and everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. In any case, there is little doubt that both these texts inform the New Testament’s portrayal of the ultimate Day of the Lord and the final judgment.
The Final Judgment - The Gospel Coalition​

 

[eclipsenow]

Are you claiming Josephus settled the issue?

Are you ever going to show your workings and offer evidence for your own proposition - like adults in debates should - or always just ask snide questions?

 

[eclipsenow]

There will only be an AOD after the Second Coming.

There will not

 

[eclipsenow]

That would be when you get to heaven and a big tough angel loses his temper and whacks you on the ear.

Ha ha ha - love it!

Yeah, TimtoFly lost it with this one! "There will only be an AOD after the Second Coming." I mean, I know Keras also thinks something like this but it still makes me wince. Wow. Just wow. How on earth Jesus returns to earth to reign in a nerfed 'kingdom' that can have something like that happen - I mean - it makes me ask how much "reigning" is actually going on? It's like they almost put Satan up there as 'the other god' the way he is going to bash God's church around AFTER Jesus returns?!?!

 

[RandyPNW]

We get the information about how and when Antiochus 4th desecrated the Temple in; 2 Maccabees 6:1-9

Thanks brother. It's helpful.

 

[Timtofly]

There will not

Explain these verses:

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Did he overcome the saints and claimed all authority on earth?

"In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

 

[DavidPT]

We get the information about how and when Antiochus 4th desecrated the Temple in; 2 Maccabees 6:1-9

I fully realize that, yet, my Bible doesn't contain 2 Maccabees. Should I take 2 Maccabees as holy writ, regardless? Maybe I should take the book of Enoch as holy writ as well while I'm at it. A lot of ppl consult that book as well, maybe not you though, I don't know, but some certainly do.

 

[DavidPT]

This 'contradiction' as you put it is included in the OP. I never said NO OT prophecy is about the last day, just most are not. Here, I made it red...

Paul Williamson teaches Old Testament at Moore Theological College - in America he would be called a Professor of OT. He says:-

While the Old Testament portrays God as the righteous judge of all the earth (cf. Gen 18:25; 1Sam 2:10; 1Chr 16:33) who holds both individuals and nations accountable for their actions (e.g., Deut 32:41; Psa 110:6; Job 19:29; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; Ezek 33:20; Jer 25:31; Joel 3:2), such divine judgment — often referred to as “the day of the LORD” or simply “that day” — is usually confined to the historical realm (i.e., military overthrow, physical curse and/or death); seldom, if ever, does it refer to a final, eschatological or eternal judgment. Some texts may arguably allude to such (e.g., Psa 1:5; Eccl 3:17; 11:9; 12:14), but the closest we get to a final assize in the Old Testament is the scene in Daniel 7, where the Ancient of Days presides over a heavenly court at which books are opened, the terrifying fourth beast is destroyed in blazing fire, and the eternal kingdom is given to God’s holy people. Arguably the same scenario is portrayed somewhat differently in Daniel 12, where those sleeping in the dust of the earth awake — some to glory and everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. In any case, there is little doubt that both these texts inform the New Testament’s portrayal of the ultimate Day of the Lord and the final judgment.
The Final Judgment - The Gospel Coalition​

You made it clear via the title of your thread alone that you were not meaning every single prophecy in the OT, the fact you said 'most' rather than 'all'. Some of the OP I tend to agree with you about, some of it I don't. That's better than what I usually get. When someone disagrees with me they tend to disagree with everything I said rather than at least agreeing with some of it.

 

[DavidPT]

Neither one is believable at all.

You beat me to it. That was going to be my answer as well.

 

[eclipsenow]

Explain these verses:

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."

Did he overcome the saints and claimed all authority on earth?

"In the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

First few minutes should do