Most OT prophetic passages futurists *think* are about the End Times, aren't

[eclipsenow]

You're confusing your biblical theology - IE; where some bits of the bible fit in the unfolding plans of God. Matthew 23:34 is tricky because it's a NT verse talking about the practice of God in sending prophets UNTIL Jesus arrived. The other NT verses discuss the gifts God gives the church, but the problem is they are not very well defined. I have Charismatics in my family, and have never seen or heard any prophecy that has seemed better than a lucky guess - and they're most often wrong.

If you can get through the next 3 articles - you'll be way ahead of most people on this board in terms of understanding the sufficiency of scriptures.

The God of Word

Word and Spirit: The God of Word II

Word and Bible: The God of Word III

 

[keras]

You know the vast majority of Christendom from both Protestant and Catholic circles read Matthew 3:12 VERY differently to you - don't you? You are aware of this aren't you?

They have the unbiblical and never prophesied idea that they will be 'raptured to heaven'.
They and you AMills, will be shocked on the Day the Lord metaphorically 'winnows' the earth with a fire that cannot be put out.

 

[Acts29]

You're confusing your biblical theology - IE; where some bits of the bible fit in the unfolding plans of God. Matthew 23:34 is tricky because it's a NT verse talking about the practice of God in sending prophets UNTIL Jesus arrived. The other NT verses discuss the gifts God gives the church, but the problem is they are not very well defined. I have Charismatics in my family, and have never seen or heard any prophecy that has seemed better than a lucky guess - and they're most often wrong.

If you can get through the next 3 articles - you'll be way ahead of most people on this board in terms of understanding the sufficiency of scriptures.

The God of Word

Word and Spirit: The God of Word II

Word and Bible: The God of Word III

"Sufficiency of scripture" is a doctrine developed by religious people that don't want to know or hear His voice. That way they can make themselves head of the church and keep Jesus out, just like Pharisees. Any church service that does not have the tangible presence of God in it has locked Him out and does not want Him. I have been to many kinds of churches where the people leave in the same condition they arrived in. Thus have a social club, not a church. He always comes to those who truly seek Him and the encounter will change that person/people. Jesus said "follow Me." He didn't say "follow the scriptures only." He greatly desires to be sought and known by His people.

John 10:4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

The scriptures I showed you about Jesus sending prophets are quite plain and easy to understand. Sadly, many create theology first then shoehorn the scriptures into it. It should be the other way around.

 

[eclipsenow]

They have the unbiblical and never prophesied idea that they will be 'raptured to heaven'.
They and you AMills, will be shocked on the Day the Lord metaphorically 'winnows' the earth with a fire that cannot be put out.

You're actually scaring me now - and sound a lot like David Koresh or Jimmy Jones.
You're starting to attack the gospel itself!
When people cheapen a warning about hell, I worry.
When they try to pretend there's something worse than hell, I worry.

Matthew 3
11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

But it is the day of the last judgment that will be the great winnowing, distinguishing day, which will infallibly determine concerning doctrines and works (1 Cor. 3:13), and concerning persons (Matt. 25:32, 33), when saints and sinners shall be parted for ever. .... Hell is the unquenchable fire, which will burn up the chaff, which will certainly be the portion and punishment, and everlasting destruction, of hypocrites and unbelievers. So that here are life and death, good and evil, set before us; according as we now are in the field, we shall be then in the floor.
Verses 7–12 - Matthew Henry's Commentary - Bible Gateway​

But you have cheapened it to a temporary solar flare that will kill 411 million inhabitants of the Middle East - a mere 5.1% of the world's population!

I don't want to sound insensitive to the Middle East - but the way you were speaking about these solar flares and it requiring 1/4 of Old testament prophecies to talk about - I thought it was going to be something bigger. Much bigger!

Yeah - help - it's a global catastrophe! At a population growth rate of 81 million per year it will take 5 years for the population to recover. And with climate change we NEED to be weaning off the Middle East's oil anyway.

Yup - definitely worth wasting 1/4 of Old Testament prophecies on! I mean seriously - the Black Plague killed a MUCH higher proportion of the global population! The Spanish invasion of South America might even compete with your invention!

But rather than your Sci-Fi thriller, Matthew 3 is about something VASTLY more serious and terrifying. I'm quite alarmed that you cannot see that.

 

[keras]

But it is the day of the last judgment that will be the great winnowing, distinguishing day, which will infallibly determine concerning doctrines and works (1 Cor. 3:13), and concerning persons (Matt. 25:32, 33), when saints and sinners shall be parted for ever. .... Hell is the unquenchable fire, which will burn up the chaff, which will certainly be the portion and punishment, and everlasting destruction, of hypocrites and unbelievers. So that here are life and death, good and evil, set before us; according as we now are in the field, we shall be then in the floor.

What John prophesied in Matthew 3:33 isn't the end of the world, but the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster. Proved by Matthew 3:10....the removal of the tree which failed to produce good fruit. By fire; Amos 2:4-5

Your use of Matthew Henry, shows the paucity and weakness of your rebuttals.

 

[eclipsenow]

What John prophesied in Matthew 3:33 isn't the end of the world, but the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster.

Assertion isn't evidence,
repetition isn't evidence,
misquoting Revelation 6 which you can't get right in the first place isn't evidence
- no wonder your own Pastor isn't convinced by your repetitive, oh-so-tired assertions.

Your use of Matthew Henry, shows the paucity and weakness of your rebuttals.

Rather - it shows your departure from mainstream Christianity

 

[keras]

it shows your departure from mainstream Christianity

All of Christianity is lead by those to whom Jesus said: The Father has hidden these things, [the understanding of Prophecy] from the wise and knowledgeable and only revealed them to babes. [babes; the uneducated and those who reject false beliefs] 1 Corinthians 1:19-20

That this is how it is today, is evidenced by the proliferation of ideas, theories and outright fables about the end times, so prevalent today.

So; in a way; belief in wrong theories, is not a sin, but the vehement promotion of false teachings; is. Teachers will face a more severe Judgment. James 3:1

 

[parousia70]

The letters to the seven churches have nothing to do with those ancient churches.

That's all I need to hear to know your position is absolutely incorrect.

This is way off topic so I would prefer not to argue about this here. Thanks.

No problem.

 

[parousia70]

Being more circumspect with your comments, would be good for you and for us.

Well, It seems circumspect to me that your position madates Jesus was either Lying or Mistaken.

It is actually quite clear that Jesus meant the generation of people who DO see all those prophesied things.

I agree.

So far only Matthew 24:1-11 has happened.

I disagree

All of the seven Letters to the Church's are for all Christians thru this age and Jesus' warning of a surprise event,

It can't be for ALL Christians of ALL ages when you remove ALL Chrstians through ALL ages BEFORE ours of haveing ANY application at all.

It has had the effect of keeping His people spiritually ready at all times.

How is it MORE effecacious than knowing you're not guaranteed your next breath?

 

[keras]

Well, It seems circumspect to me that your position madates Jesus was either Lying or Mistaken.

Even to write this on a public forum, is wrong and disgusting.

It can't be for ALL Christians of ALL ages when you remove ALL Chrstians through ALL ages BEFORE ours of haveing ANY application at all.

This is a ridiculous assertion.
Although the end time events await fulfillment, what is prophesied does have the good effect of people knowing that at the end; God prevails.

But as we ARE the generation who will see it all, then we should make every effort to carefully read and understand the prophesies.
With preterist beliefs; people are in the dark. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6

 

[Spiritual Jew]

With preterist beliefs; people are in the dark. 1 Thessalonians 5:2-6

That passage contrasts Christians who are in the spiritual light with non-Christians who are in spiritual darkness and will have "sudden destruction" come upon them from which "they shall not escape". So, are you accusing him of not being a Christian who will be destroyed with "sudden destruction"?

 

[parousia70]

Even to write this on a public forum, is wrong and disgusting.

Lets be frank about what the implication of your position truly is, which I believe is wrong and disgusting.
Here is the scripture again:

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

The repeated YOU in this passage NEVER EVER EXCLUDES the first century people at Sardis as you would have it. Not even once, ever.

Jesus plainly told THEM back THEN that His theif's coing would indeed befall THEM... not might, not possibly, not maybe, not perpahs, not just a chance.... no, He told THEM:
"I WILL COME UPON YOU AS A THEIF.

You say "He didn't Come upon them" In direct contrast, Jesus said TO THEM:
"I will Come upon you"

It is indeed wrong and disgusting to Claim Jesus failed to make Good on His promise to them, and renders the foundation fo our faith crumbled under the weight of the failure you propose, that your position mandates.

 

[keras]

That passage contrasts Christians who are in the spiritual light with non-Christians who are in spiritual darkness and will have "sudden destruction" come upon them from which "they shall not escape". So, are you accusing him of not being a Christian who will be destroyed with "sudden destruction"?

1 Thessalonians 5 is for Christians. It refers to a sudden destruction which the Lord will send upon the ungodly peoples.
That many Christians fail to understand the end time prophesies, is not a Salvation issue, but it may make it harder for them to stand firm in their faith during all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

You say "He didn't Come upon them" In direct contrast, Jesus said TO THEM:
"I will Come upon you"

But He never did 'Come upon' the people of Sardis and they have long gone.

Most Prophecy is Written in the present tense. That is to reinforce the certainty of its fulfilment.

It is wrong and disgusting to Calim Jesus failed to make Good on His promise to them, and renders the foundation fo our faith crumbled under the weight of the failure you propose, that your position mandates.

Try spellcheck, or just read your post before posting them. OK?

How can anyone's faith 'crumble', because we still look forward to the Day the Lord will destroy His enemies?

 

[DavidPT]

Lets be frank about what the implication of your position truly is, which I believe is wrong and disgusting.
Here is the scripture again:

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

The repeated YOU in this passage NEVER EVER EXCLUDES the first century people at Sardis as you would have it. Not even once, ever.

Jesus plainly told THEM back THEN that His theif's coing would indeed befall THEM... not might, not possibly, not maybe, not perpahs, not just a chance.... no, He told THEM:
"I WILL COME UPON YOU AS A THEIF.

You say "He didn't Come upon them" In direct contrast, Jesus said TO THEM:
"I will Come upon you"

It is wrong and disgusting to Calim Jesus failed to make Good on His promise to them, and renders the foundation fo our faith crumbled under the weight of the failure you propose, that your position mandates.

We are clearly told in the NT when Jesus comes upon one like a thief. It always involves His 2nd coming. That passage has to be understood in light of that unless you can provide a passage or two where He comes as a thief, but that it doesn't involve His 2nd coming in the end of this age, and that you can prove it from the text.

The following are basically most of the passages involving Him coming in that manner. Not to those watching, but those not watching.

Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up

Luke 12:39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


And take note what they all have in common, that which I underlined. You are not even making an attempt to interpret Scripture with Scripture here. You are interpreting Revelation 3:3 in a vacuum instead.

 

[keras]

We are clearly told in the NT when Jesus comes upon one like a thief. It always involves His 2nd coming.

But Jesus does not Return 'as a thief'. That whole idea is absurd.
He will Return on power and glory, at a time known by His faithful believers; that being exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated.

His unexpected 'coming', is at His terrible Day of fiery wrath, when He won't be seen. Psalms 11:4-6 The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster which will commence all the end time events, leading up to the glorious Return.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

1 Thessalonians 5 is for Christians. It refers to a sudden destruction which the Lord will send upon the ungodly peoples.

The "ungodly peoples" are those who are in darkness. Therefore, by saying that preterists are in the dark and referencing 1 Thess 5 as your basis for saying that, you were accusing them of being "ungodly peoples" who are in the dark. That is wrong.

That many Christians fail to understand the end time prophesies, is not a Salvation issue,

You turned it into one by accusing preterists of being in darkness. In 1 Thess 5, those in darkness are those who will experience "sudden destruction" on the day of the Lord because of their wickedness. That does not describe a Christian who has the wrong end times view. You are being reckless with your comments and you need to stop doing that.

 

[keras]

You turned it into one by accusing preterists of being in darkness

Another of your leaps into a wrong conclusion.

My sole aim and object is to warn people of the forthcoming worldwide disaster. The terrible Day when the Lord will send fire to destroy His enemies.
Those who reject the Prophesies, mostly they are simply ignored by Christians, will be surprised and shocked on that Day. [A literal 24 hour day] This is not how we should be.
Knowing what it is that the Lord will use and its effects, will be a great help; to keep us stand strong in our faith, thru it all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Another of your leaps into a wrong conclusion.

No, it isn't. Tell me why you referenced 1 Thess 5 in relation to preterists if you weren't intending to say that preterists are in the dark in the way Paul described people being in the dark in 1 Thess 5?

But Jesus does not Return 'as a thief'. That whole idea is absurd.

Your whole idea that He does not return as a thief is absurd. DavidPT listed several scripture references which make it clear that He will return as a thief, so it's utterly absurd to deny what all those scriptures teach. There is no such thing as a second coming of Christ followed later by His return. That is completely absurd and not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[keras]

Your whole idea that He does not return as a thief is absurd. DavidPT listed several scripture references which make it clear that He will return as a thief, so it's utterly absurd to deny what all those scriptures teach. There is no such thing as a second coming of Christ followed later by His return. That is completely absurd and not taught anywhere in scripture.

I have many times shown that when the Lord 'comes' in His fiery wrath, He will not be seen. Prophesies such as Amos 1 and Psalms 11:4-6 make that clear.
Thinking that 'coming as a thief' is the same as He appearance on a white horse; in the clouds, accompanied by the angel army, will be unexpected - is simply unbelievable.
Except for those with the totally unrealistic belief of AMill.

 

[eclipsenow]

You neither know me, nor have ever known me. However, in the 4th quarter of 2022 after the summer of disasters in America you will. I told you what I did specifically to draw out your disbelief for the record.

See, Keras had a personal vision and you've had a personal vision and neither of you agree with the other so it leaves the rest of us kinda "Meh". Doesn't God know what he's doing?

Also, the emotions expressed in your post remind me of something I have been thinking through for decades.
I used to feel the same urgent Apocalyptic CERTAINTY some here feel