Most OT prophetic passages futurists *think* are about the End Times, aren't

[Acts29]

Matthew 23:34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,​

Except, just a few verses later it's clear that this is all in his generation. Isn't context an amazing thing?

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”​

He's abandoning them, and opening the way for all nations to come in.
He's abandoning the temple and sacrificial system with his perfect sacrifice, so that WE can be the temple.
And the consequences? AD70.

And now?

Hebrews 1
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.​

God doesn't speak as man speaks. He is eternal. He speaks FROM the future all through the Bible.

Matthew 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Did ALL the things in Matthew 24 take place 2000 years ago? No. Without the understanding of eternity, there is no chance to understand God's speech. When John/Elijah comes in the 4th quarter of 2022 and tells you the same things I did, will you believe him?

 

[Acts29]

But Jesus is coming at the end of the age. The following passage indicates that heaven and earth will pass away at His second coming.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

The context of the entire passage is established in the first 2 verses. This is all about the promise of Christ's second coming. In relation to His second coming, Peter indicates in verse 7 that the heavens and earth are reserved for fire just as the world was destroyed by water in Noah's day. He made the same comparison to what will happen on the day Christ returns to what happened in Noah's day that Jesus did in Matthew 24:37-39.

Then in verse 9 Peter indicates that the Lord is not slow in keeping the promise of His second coming. So, the subject is still the second coming of Christ at that point. And then Peter proceeds to describe what he had mentioned earlier in verse 7 in more detail in verses 10-12. Clearly, what is described there is in relation to the second coming of Christ and Him coming like a thief in the night.

And, finally, Peter indicates that what will result from Him keeping the promise of His second coming is the new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells.

So, coming back around to Matthew 24:36, we should understand that what He was saying there is that no one knows the day or hour of His second coming which will be when heaven and earth pass away.

We also know that He was referring to His second coming in Matthew 24:36 by simply looking at other verses like Matthew 24:42-44 and Matthew 25:13.

Matthew 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Jesus Himself said "you do not know on what day your Lord will come". With that in mind, how can you think that He was not referring to His coming in Matthew 24:36 that He had just talked about in Matthew 24:29-31?

Matthew 25:13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.".

This is what Jesus said right after describing His second coming in a parable, so it's very obvious that He was saying you do not know the day or hour that I will come. But, what many don't catch is that He was saying in Matthew 24:35-36 that heaven and earth will pass away when He comes which lines up with what Peter taught.

Amil? We are not going to agree on anything. God declared the end from the beginning. The whole 7000 year age is laid out with the last 1000 years of rest, the Sabbath. We will just have to see. Thanks for your detailed replay.

 

[Douggg]

But the futurist hasn't proved that Daniel's AOD was not already fulfilled somewhere in the past - they just assume this.

Daniel 12:4 indicates that the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12:11-13 is time of the end characterized by an increase of travel and knowledge.

And the time of the end is also the time of the prophecy about the little horn and the transgression of desolation (which will precede the
abomination of desolation) also being time of the end.

Which has not happened yet because the little horn is destroyed when he attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus. Daniel 8:25.

 

[Douggg]

But Jesus is coming at the end of the age. The following passage indicates that heaven and earth will pass away at His second coming.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. 8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

The context of the entire passage is established in the first 2 verses. This is all about the promise of Christ's second coming. In relation to His second coming, Peter indicates in verse 7 that the heavens and earth are reserved for fire just as the world was destroyed by water in Noah's day. He made the same comparison to what will happen on the day Christ returns to what happened in Noah's day that Jesus did in Matthew 24:37-39.

Then in verse 9 Peter indicates that the Lord is not slow in keeping the promise of His second coming. So, the subject is still the second coming of Christ at that point. And then Peter proceeds to describe what he had mentioned earlier in verse 7 in more detail in verses 10-12. Clearly, what is described there is in relation to the second coming of Christ and Him coming like a thief in the night.

And, finally, Peter indicates that what will result from Him keeping the promise of His second coming is the new heaven and new earth where righteousness dwells.

So, coming back around to Matthew 24:36, we should understand that what He was saying there is that no one knows the day or hour of His second coming which will be when heaven and earth pass away.

We also know that He was referring to His second coming in Matthew 24:36 by simply looking at other verses like Matthew 24:42-44 and Matthew 25:13.

Matthew 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Jesus Himself said "you do not know on what day your Lord will come". With that in mind, how can you think that He was not referring to His coming in Matthew 24:36 that He had just talked about in Matthew 24:29-31?

Matthew 25:13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.".

This is what Jesus said right after describing His second coming in a parable, so it's very obvious that He was saying you do not know the day or hour that I will come. But, what many don't catch is that He was saying in Matthew 24:35-36 that heaven and earth will pass away when He comes which lines up with what Peter taught.

A day unto the Lord is as a thousand years. If the 1000 year millennium is the Lord's day, what leads into it like a thief when the Antichrist goes into the temple sits claims to be God.

Half of a 7 year week later, Jesus returns, and at the end of the 1000 years which he rules the nations with a rod iron, is the final rebellion lead by Satan. Immediately after which is the destruction of this present heaven and earth, Revelation 20:11.

 

[Acts29]

Maybe I should take the book of Enoch as holy writ as well while I'm at it. A lot of ppl consult that book as well, maybe not you though, I don't know, but some certainly do.

Hey David. This is way off OP topic but I'd like to ask you a question about the passage below that requires focus. I'm sure you are familiar with the context so I'll clip it short for brevity.

Matthew 22:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

Most focus on Jesus' profound statement in verse 32 for good reason. Focus on verse 30 for a min. Jesus said they should have known the answer to their silly question because the answers in verse 30 are in the scriptures, which they should have known. Two statements. One, in the resurrection none marry. Two, in the resurrection the saints become like the angels. Here is my question for you.

Where IN SCRIPTURE are these two subjects written? Both subjects are covered almost word for word in only one book I know. Enoch. The book of Enoch was well known as scripture 2000 years ago. Jude wrote about it. Did Jesus call Enoch scripture in your opinion based on what He said here?

 

[Douggg]

The OT mostly just isn't about what futurists want it to be about

Ezekiel 39 is future and provides the infallible timeline framework of events because it is Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth.

 

[keras]

"There will only be an AOD after the Second Coming." I mean, I know Keras also thinks something like this

Satan will sit in the Temple 42 months before Jesus Returns. Revelation 13:5-8

I fully realize that, yet, my Bible doesn't contain 2 Maccabees. Should I take 2 Maccabees as holy writ, regardless? Maybe I should take the book of Enoch as holy writ as well while I'm at it. A lot of ppl consult that book as well, maybe not you though, I don't know, but some certainly do.

Maccabees is the historical record of the Jews; pre Christ.
But the Books of Esdras {Ezra], are all the Prophetic Words of Ezra. The Book of Ezra in our Bibles contain no prophecy.
There is much valuable info in them.
Here he prophesies against Judah:
2 Esdras 1:33-34 Thus says the Lord Almighty: Your house is forsaken; I will drive you out as the wind drives straw; and your sons will have no children, because with you they have neglected my commandments and have done what is evil in my sight.

2 Esdras 1:35-36 I will give your houses to a people yet to come, a people who will trust me, though they have not known me, who will do my bidding, though I gave them no signs. They have seen no prophets, yet will keep in mind what the prophets taught of old.

2 Esdras 1:37 I call to witness the gratitude of the people that is to come, whose children rejoice with gladness; though they do not see Me with bodily eyes, yet with the spirit they will believe the things I have said.

A plain reference to Christians. WE will inherit the holy Land. Ephesians 1:11-14

 

[Douggg]

Satan will sit in the Temple 42 months before Jesus Returns. Revelation 13:5-8

To be more precise, on the temple mount, Satan incarnating the abomination of desolation statue image of the beast person.

It has to be out in the open, not only for the Jews at that time when they see it there will know to flee, but also that Ezekiel 28:16-19 can be fulfilled on God bringing Satan to ashes as the kings and the people of the earth behold him. (as shown on my illustration below.)

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You beat me to it. That was going to be my answer as well.

I wasn't intending to speak for you, but I couldn't just let that one go.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Amil? We are not going to agree on anything.

That's okay. I'm used to disagreeing with some people here on everything. Doesn't phase me.

 

[Douggg]

I suggest that the vast majority of conservative scholars saw Antiochus 4 in the pages of Daniel, particularly in chs. 8 and 11. Frankly, I don't know how else they could be viewed?

No Antiochus 4 in Daniel 8.

Antiochus 4 is in Daniel 11:29-31, committing what is a preview of the end time abomination of desolation.

 

[eclipsenow]

God doesn't speak as man speaks. He is eternal. He speaks FROM the future all through the Bible.

Matthew 24:34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Did ALL the things in Matthew 24 take place 2000 years ago? No. Without the understanding of eternity, there is no chance to understand God's speech. When John/Elijah comes in the 4th quarter of 2022 and tells you the same things I did, will you believe him?

I have another whole thread dedicated to Matthew 24 here.
Matthew 24 - the Sydney Anglican "Boltian" reading - THIS GENERATION means it!

This thread is more about OT prophets and how futurists push them to be about things other than that prophet's concern - but I do go into how Matthew 24 quotes chunks of Isaiah that futurists largely ignore. So it might be worth your time to raise your objections over there. (You're objections are not very strong - but you're welcome to try.)

 

[eclipsenow]

Satan will sit in the Temple 42 months before Jesus Returns. Revelation 13:5-8

I thought you said there would be a CME, then Jesus would rule from Jerusalem, because ... Millennium... or something... then there would be a one world government, then a thing happens where the temple is abandoned for some reason and another thing and suddenly we have Jerusalem abandoned to the AOD.... because maintaining a secure eternal rest doesn't seem to be possible... or something...

 

[DavidPT]

I wasn't intending to speak for you, but I couldn't just let that one go.

No problem. I wasn't complaining or anything.

 

[DavidPT]

No Antiochus 4 in Daniel 8.

Antiochus 4 is in Daniel 11:29-31, committing what is a preview of the end time abomination of desolation.

Why not? If he can be in Daniel 11:29-31 like you are proposing, why can't he also be in Daniel 8, since it seems to me that the one meant in Daniel 8 is meaning the same one meant in Daniel 11:29-31? Thus, whoever one has Daniel 8 meaning, it should be meaning the same one they have Daniel 11:29-31 meaning.

 

[Timtofly]

First few minutes should do

So you deny these verses have any meaning whatsoever?

 

[keras]

I thought you said there would be a CME, then Jesus would rule from Jerusalem, because ... Millennium... or something... then there would be a one world government, then a thing happens where the temple is abandoned for some reason and another thing and suddenly we have Jerusalem abandoned to the AOD.... because maintaining a secure eternal rest doesn't seem to be possible... or something...

You are not only incapable of understanding the Prophesies, you make no attempt to do so.
I have posted a sequence of events for the end times. It is basically how Revelation gives it.
The next prophesied event will be the Sixth Seal, the Lord's Day of fiery wrath which will set the scene for all the rest, leading to the Glorious Return of Jesus. Satan will have virtual world control for the final 42 months before the Return.

This is scriptural truth and scoffing about it, as you do, is a crime against God.

 

[Douggg]

Why not? If he can be in Daniel 11:29-31 like you are proposing, why can't he also be in Daniel 8, since it seems to me that the one meant in Daniel 8 is meaning the same one meant in Daniel 11:29-31? Thus, whoever one has Daniel 8 meaning, it should be meaning the same one they have Daniel 11:29-31 meaning.

"Why not?"

Because Antiochus IV was not time of the end.

Daniel 8:17, the little horn person is time of the end. He meets his end when he attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes -Jesus. Daniel 8:25.

Which takes place, when he as the beast convinces the kings of the earth to assemble their armies at Armageddon to try and stop Jesus from executing judgment on them, Revelation 19:17-21.

______________________________________________

Regarding the little horn, who cannot be Antiochus IV, ......

In Daniel 8, the angel Gabriel appears in the form of a man to Daniel to explain about the vision of the little horn....

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

15 And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.

16 And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called, and said, Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.

17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

In Daniel 9, Gabriel again appears, and again in the form of a man, to Daniel...

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

What most people do not realize is that the vision referred to in Daniel 9 is the vision that Daniel had in Daniel 8 when he first encountered Gabriel.

Daniel in the first verses of Daniel 9 was praying about the 70 years of Babylonian captivity to be about over... which in Daniei 9:23 is the "matter".

The vision in Daniel 9:23, however, is about the vision of the little horn Daniel had in Daniel 8.

Daniel had no vision in Daniel 9, prior to Gabriel's appearance, nor afterward in Daniel 9. Prior to Gabriel's appearance, Daniel had been speaking to God in prayer, Daniel 9:21.

Gabriel, in Daniel 9:24-27, gave Daniel skill and understanding about the future of his people and Jerusalem, and of the vision of the little horn person - to take place in the 70th week.

The little horn person will be the prince who shall come. Who as the Antichrist will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years, as required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. Then in the middle part of the 7 years stops the daily sacrifice and commits the transgression of desolation act by going into the temple and claims to have achieved God-hood.

 

[Douggg]

I thought you said there would be a CME, then Jesus would rule from Jerusalem, because ... Millennium... or something... then there would be a one world government, then a thing happens where the temple is abandoned for some reason and another thing and suddenly we have Jerusalem abandoned to the AOD.... because maintaining a secure eternal rest doesn't seem to be possible... or something...
View attachment 307844 View attachment 307844

Your sequential list - one post only

Keras's sequence - post 4.

my sequence - post 2.

 

[DavidPT]

"Why not?"

Because Antiochus IV was not time of the end.

Daniel 8:17, the little horn person is time of the end. He meets his end when he attempts to stand up against the Prince of princes -Jesus. Daniel 8:25.

Which takes place, when he as the beast convinces the kings of the earth to assemble their armies at Armageddon to try and stop Jesus from executing judgment on them, Revelation 19:17-21.

I of course agree entirely with this, yet this wasn't my point. My point is that both the King meant in Daniel 11:36 and the little horn meant in Daniel 8, these are one and the same, though I unfortunately neglected to mention verse 36 at the time, thus, the king meant in Daniel 11:36 is meaning the same person meant involving Daniel 11:31-35. How can that not be meaning the king meant in verse 36? If it isn't, what then happened to the one involving verses 31-35? Why is he relevant one minute and the next minute he isn't, and that he just disappears from the text altogether without even an explanation whatsoever? How does that make sense?