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Featured Moses, Christ, and Paul

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by gospels, Apr 7, 2020.

  1. createdtoworship

    createdtoworship In the grip of grace

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    let me know when you get your thread OP put together, I would love to see what it says regarding the millenium.
     
  2. gospels

    gospels God said: "Let us make a baby girl in our image." Supporter

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    Thanks for sharing. Are you saying Christianity is all about the Messiah. Judaism is also all about the Messiah but no one knows it except a few. I hope I could make everyone to see how it is all about Messiah but I cannot. Everyone wants worlds definitions, not God's definitions. I'm talking about a Judaism that is without man made traditions and pagan culture. That is the same God we also follow today.
     
  3. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Judaism is a false religion based largely on the Talmud that rejects Christ.
     
  4. gospels

    gospels God said: "Let us make a baby girl in our image." Supporter

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    That is a man made and pagan Judaism. But I'm talking about that which Jesus followed according to the God's standard.
     
  5. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I just put you in my notes.
     
  6. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Gospels, Do you consider that Judaism started with Abraham or Moses?
     
  7. Dkh587

    Dkh587 David דויד Supporter

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    Yup. Judaism is Pharisee religion. Moses, the Prophets, Messiah & the Apostles taught salvation through faith & obedience to God’s law. It is not Judaism, in any form.

    Judaism is a religion of manmade law, and Teaches salvation and righteousness through its manmade laws.

    Paul came out of Judaism and into the Way.
     
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  8. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe Judaism started coming out of Babylonian exile. I believe Torah was in the beginning.
     
  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are now under the New Covenant that includes much of what Jesus said under the Old Covenant.
     
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  10. gospels

    gospels God said: "Let us make a baby girl in our image." Supporter

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    Ah. Finally, a good question. Thanks for asking. I will say Moses.

    I see Judaism as a lifestyle/culture/tradition, a way of living and conducting oneself. And it is God who decides and gives a certain lifestyle/culture/tradition to His people to keep/follow. All civil and ceremonial rules make up a lifestyle/culture/tradition which as a whole I call it as "Judaism". I'm not saying that God gave Judaism, this is just a human language.

    And anyone who is able to keep such a lifestyle/culture/tradition (without adding any man made traditions and pagan culture) is who i would call as following the true Judaism. Jesus followed the same lifestyle/culture/tradition according to God's standards. And only Messiah had the authority to add to it and give deeper meaning to that (Moses said to Israel in Deuteronomy 18:15), which if Israelite's realized they will follow that form of "Judaism", which is a true form.

    So God given civil and ceremonial rules and everything in the Old Testament make up "Judaism", just as how we made up the term "Christianity" from the New Testament for the lifestyle that Jesus gave us to follow (which has resemblance to the Old Testament but now it is also by spirit rather than just by letter alone). And anyone following it properly is a true Christian. So I see that God of true Judaism is the same God of true Christianity.

    God did not give any civil and ceremonial rules (lifestyle/culture/tradition) to Abraham to keep so it did not start with him. Everyone is perceiving it as how this world's false Judaism perceives it but that wasn't the original one. People will see the original one if they remove the man-made traditions and pagan culture just as how a Christian would learn the what a real Christianity is if they remove all the false man-made concepts that got mixed up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  11. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Before I answer your question, you sort of have to look at the Old Covenant (Old Testament) as one contract, and the New Covenant (New Testament) as another contract. It's like a contract when you a buy a house. If you did not like certain things in the contract, you could ask them to make some changes in the contract. If they agreed to the changes, you would then go by the new contract, and the old contract for the house would be discarded. There may be some similar things between the old contract, and the new contract, but you stick with the new contract in your dealing with buying the house (Note: Please keep in mind that the New Covenant did not officially go into effect until Christ's death, and Christ was making changes to the Old Law even before the cross - For Jesus said things like, you have heard it said, an eye for an eye, but I say unto you turn the other cheek; This is a change of the Law - See: Hebrews 7:12).

    According to Scripture: One of the reasons for all the horrible things that will happen upon this world as mentioned in Revelation is that it will drive Israel to the wall to repent and seek their Messiah Jesus Christ. This happens when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Meaning, when the last Gentile Christian repents in the end times (Which is really bad), they will come to recognize Jesus as their Messiah on a national level.

    The problem with the Jews is that if they were to have believed Moses, they would have believed Jesus.

    "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me." (John 5:46).​

    It's why the Jews ignored the weightier matters of the Old Law.

    "“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." (Matthew 23:23) (NKJV).​

    "“But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone." (Luke 11:42) (NKJV).
    Now, I will attempt to lay out some more things in my next two posts to you to lay some basic things before I answer your question in showing the actual differences between Christ's earthly ministry vs. Paul's ministry.

    Side Note:

    Please be patient. I am attempting to show you some things you first need to accept in order to know the differences between Christ's earthly ministry and Paul's ministry (Which are not really major differences).
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2020
  12. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Before the cross (within the pages of the New Testament): The differences between Jesus's ministry, and Paul's ministry are not really different (except for the fact that Jesus was under the Old Covenant, and He sometimes would do things on occasion in line with the Old Covenant). But Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant, and not Old Covenant even before the cross. How so? Here is a list of verses below for you to compare:

    Jesus clearly was making changes to the Law
    (even before the cross):
    (Which means He was not teaching
    primarily Old Covenant, but New Covenant):

    The Old Way says:
    "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth" (Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


    The Old Way says:
    "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


    The Old Way says:
    "Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
    35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
    36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
    37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


    The Old Way says:
    "And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

    "And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

    "And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

    16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
    17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

    "They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

    Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


    The Old Way says:
    20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
    21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
    22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

    4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
    5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

    The New Way (by Jesus) says:
    "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


    Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

    The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
    "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

    Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
    "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
    (Galatians 5:2).


    The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
    32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
    33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
    34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
    35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
    36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

    Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
    "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

    So it appears things have changed.

    This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

    "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law."
    (Hebrews 7:12).

    “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
    (John 1:17).

    Jesus said,
    "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

    Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).


     
  13. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (CLV) Hb 7:12
    For, the priesthood being transferred, o of necessity there is coming to be a transference of law also,

    All of the verses surrounding this verse pertain to the Priesthood, the law concerning the High Priesthood was transferred. Scripture states that the Covenant with the Levitical Priesthood is eternal; and that they will be making sacrifices in the Millennial Kingdom.
     
  14. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Most of Yahshua's words came straight out of the Torah. Of those most came from Deuteronomy.
     
  15. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ...as your Pagan family and friends admonish you for keeping the Torah that you are taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.
     
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Old Law is No More - The Law has changed:

    God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil). A Moral Law is any law telling you to do good without a specific law telling you that such a thing is so (Note: For the Gentiles were able to keep the Law [i.e. the Moral Law] without having any written Law - See Romans 2:14). These moral laws existed before the Law of Moses.

    In the New Covenant (or New Testament) these Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated from the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more (contractually speaking). Ceremonial commands: Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?

    Here are a list of verses (showing us the Old Law is no more):

    "When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

    ”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

    "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

    "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

    20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
    21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
    22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
    23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh." (Colossians 2:20-23).

    “By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

    "The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

    9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
    10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

    16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
    17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

    ”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

    27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
    28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

    50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

    8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
    9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

    “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

    “But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

    “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

    28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
    29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).

    7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
    8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
    9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
    10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
    11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

    “But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

    The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

    "And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

    Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

    "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).


    The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

    32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
    33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
    34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
    35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
    36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

    Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

    "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

    So it appears things have changed.

    This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

    "For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

    “For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).


     
  17. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (CLV) Ro 3:31
    Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

    (CLV) Ro 7:12
    So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

    (CLV) Ro 7:22
    For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,

    (CLV) Ro 7:25
    I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.


    (CLV) Ac 21:24
    Taking these along, be purified together with them, and bear their expenses, that they should be shaving their heads, and all will know that what they have been instructed concerning you is nothing, but you also are observing the elements and you yourself are maintaining the law.

    (CLV) Ac 24:14
    "Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

    (CLV) Ac 25:8
    Paul defending that "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the sanctuary, nor against Caesar did I any sin."
     
  18. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (CLV) Lk 16:17
    Yet it is easier for heaven and earth to pass by than for one serif of THE LAW to fall.
     
  19. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    I don't agree with your translation, and I am not interested in debating with Sabbatarians or those who want to follow the Old Testament Law of Moses. Believe as you wish. Scripture tells me not to argue with those in regards to the Law of Moses.

    "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain." (Titus 3:9).
     
  20. HARK!

    HARK! Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (CLV) Ro 2:25
    For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

    Why did Paul circumcise Timothy?
     
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