LDS Mormons Say Jesus is Your Brother and Can Be Your Father, Too

[Jane_Doe]

At post #91 I asked about what martyrs the LDS have. People die for what they truly believe in. Since their is no response, I must assume no Mormon has ever died for his faith.

Relax. I didn't answer because I was at the doctor and getting lunch. I didn't even see your question until now. As for Mormons who've died for their faith, you can start with Joseph Smith himself. Then again, there's also plenty of Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Baha'i, etc that died for their faith so I don't think that's a very good indicator of Truth. I prefer just to go to God and ask Him.

 

[Peter1000]

No one likes to have their dirty underwear exposed, which is why they are dirty secrets. The LDS is filled with superstitions such as wearing holy underwear that is not to be taken off. Or that blacks are the failed work of Lucifer, who is the brother of Jesus. Or that women have no salvation unless married to a Mormon man, who, btw, can marry as many women as he wants.. at least until the US government (Mormonism is an American cult exported around the world) forbid polygamy. You have to earn your salvation by doing missionary work at your own expense.

The sad thing about it all is that Mormons are the nicest, hardest working people I know. But they are spinning their wheels in vain. They are rowing the boat that still flows towards Hades.

Since you are close to God, let me update you to what LDS believe as for your list of exposed underwear. I do this so you do not find yourself giving false information and find yourself far from God.
1) wearing holy underwear that is not taken off. We wear a holy garment that is taken off for various reasons. Taking a shower for instance.
2) blacks are the failed work of Lucifer. They are no such thing. There was a belief that blacks were the offspring of Cain at one time, but at this time we do not subscribe to this concept. Lucifer has nothing to do with it.
3) Lucifer is the brother of Jesus. That we believe.
4) women have no salvation unless married to a Mormon man. Not true. If you want to reach the highest levels of salvation you have to be married in the everlasting covenant. But there is a lot of people who will have salvation, but not the highest level of salvation.

You said earlier that you read that JS was part of our Godhead. You really need to read updated anti-Mormon stuff. Or the best thing is to read real Mormon published books that present a whole different view of what Mormonism is really like. Anti's are so willing to lie about the event, or the person to make it look as horrible as it can be, believe me it is not all truth, and being as close to God as you are, I would always tell the full truth and not shade it in the least.

 

[AlexDTX]

Relax. I didn't answer because I was at the doctor and getting lunch. I didn't even see your question until now. As for Mormons who've died for their faith, you can start with Joseph Smith himself. Then again, there's also plenty of Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Baha'i, etc that died for their faith so I don't think that's a very good indicator of Truth. I prefer just to go to God and ask Him.

According to this report, it wasn't for his faith, but for a crime.

"Joseph Smith was killed by a mob while awaiting trial at Carthage Jail in Illinois. He had destroyed the printing press of a newspaper that had criticised him and the Mormon Church, an action that led finally to the state governor ordering him to surrender and face charges of inciting a riot, to which a charge of treason was then added, probably because Smith had earlier declared a state of emergency in Nauvoo."

But, yes, merely dying for your faith is not a litmus test of being a Christian. I just asked because I have not heard of any.

 

[AlexDTX]

3) Lucifer is the brother of Jesus. That we believe.

If you believe Jesus is divine, and Lucifer is Jesus brother, then that means Lucifer is divine, too. If Jesus is part of the Trinity, then if Lucifer is his brother, that makes Lucifer part of the Trinity. And you wonder why I don't think Mormons are Christians?

 

[Peter1000]

Technically, being married anywhere other than a Mormon temple is not obedience to the Mormon commandment and doesn't qualify a person for eternal life. If a couple does marry in the temple, they must continue to keep all the commandments in order to qualify for exaltation/godhood/eternal life.

"Alex, Mormons do NOT believe that salvation comes only by being married to anyone."

As I explained, they have multiple definitions for salvation.

The person you marry can't be just anyone. That person has to be a worthy Mormon.

If I'm not online, send me a message to explain ambiguous objections.

There will be many men and women who will recieve salvation, but not at the highest levels of salvation. Those who reach the highest will be those that obtain marriage in a Mormon temple for time and all eternity.

Others will not want to be married and can even find themselves in the Celestial Kingdom which is the highest Kingdom, but not in the highest level of this Kingdom. Again, you are just a little off.

 

[Peter1000]

If you believe Jesus is divine, and Lucifer is Jesus brother, then that means Lucifer is divine, too. If Jesus is part of the Trinity, then if Lucifer is his brother, that makes Lucifer part of the Trinity. And you wonder why I don't think Mormons are Christians?

You just do not know yet, the workings of the pre-earth life. One day you will and it will be understood. One thing I will tell you is that at one time Lucifer was second only to Jesus next to the Father. At one time Lucifer was a very influential angel that was powerful and articulate, and was a defender of God, and was right there with Jesus, next to the Father.

Did you know this about Lucifer?

 

[drstevej]

Those who reach the highest will be those that obtain marriage in a Mormon temple for time and all eternity.

Was Joseph Smith married in a Mormon temple? Brigham Young?

 

[fatboys]

They had

Was Joseph Smith married in a Mormon temple? Brigham Young?

what was called the endowment house that was used as a temporary place for these things.

 

[fatboys]

How many people have been baptized and left or become inactive? Probably millions.

Millions no but I asked the question. Did you join the LDS church without asking God?

 

[drstevej]

They had

what was called the endowment house that was used as a temporary place for these things.

So leaders can scale back the requirements for themselves but others must toe the line?

Were ALL of Joseph's and Brigham's marriages done in endowment houses. How about Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger . See this description from the linked source.

Joseph kept his marriage to Fanny out of the view of the public, and his wife Emma. Chauncey Webb recounts Emma’s later discovery of the relationship: “Emma was furious, and drove the girl, who was unable to conceal the consequences of her celestial relation with the prophet, out of her house”. Ann Eliza again recalls: “...it was felt that [Emma] certainly must have had some very good reason for her action. By degrees it became whispered about that Joseph’s love for his adopted daughter was by no means a paternal affection, and his wife, discovering the fact, at once took measures to place the girl beyond his reach...Since Emma refused decidedly to allow her to remain in her house...my mother offered to take her until she could be sent to her relatives...”

 

[Jane_Doe]

But, yes, merely dying for your faith is not a litmus test of being a Christian. I just asked because I have not heard of any.

In the past couple centuries us humans have gotten better about not killing each other over religious disagreements.

And you wonder why I don't think Mormons are Christians?

Not at all, though that's exactly the conclusion deceptive people who will tell you "Mormons believe Jesus and Lucifer are brothers" want you to arrive at.

The real story: LDS believe that Father is the Father of all. There is no other Father to us all. Yes, that does technically make everyone brothers and sisters, but that doesn't mean everyone is the same (obviously). Scripture is FULL of examples of some people being righteous and following the Father, and some spurn the Father in love of wickedness. Examples in the righteous category: Mother Teresa and Christ. Obviously Mother Teresa pales to Christ Himself (He being the Only Begotten only Son of God), but she still tried to follow Him. Wicked examples include Hitler and Satan (the latter obviously being the apex of rebellion and father of lies).

So no, Mormons don't think Christ and Lucifer are equal--- that's even more ridiculous than thinking Joseph Smith is equal to Christ.

And you wonder why I don't think Mormons are Christians?

From what I've gathered here, you don't think Mormons are Christians because for years you've heard nothing but lies about what we believe. You never knew any better, so you believed what people told you. Here's your chance to see for yourself.

 

[Rescued One]

Millions no but I asked the question. Did you join the LDS church without asking God?

Which god? I didn't know who God was! And my family didn't believe Mormonism. The senior companion missionary wanted to get his baptism numbers up.

 

[Rescued One]

There will be many men and women who will recieve salvation, but not at the highest levels of salvation. Those who reach the highest will be those that obtain marriage in a Mormon temple for time and all eternity.

Others will not want to be married and can even find themselves in the Celestial Kingdom which is the highest Kingdom, but not in the highest level of this Kingdom. Again, you are just a little off.

I am not the least bit off. Some people dislike the facts. Salvation has no levels. Those on the right are saved. Those on the left are not saved.

Resurrection isn't salvation, never was, never will be. Salvation is eternal life with God.

John Chapter Three tells you that some have eternal life; others are condemned already and the wrath of God abides on them.

John 3:16, John 3:18, John 3:36

Matthew 25
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left...

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

John 5
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I also understand that I will not convince you that you are wrong because of the hardness of your heart. I have no intention of trying. I know the new birth and the power of God because I have it. I know that there is only one God because I have been joined to His life. I know that I am not an eternal spirit that will ascend into godhood. Instead, I have been given God's very own life within me as He communes with me in my spirit. My faith is not based upon a doctrine, but his very presence which was given to me 30 years ago and has never left me. It is no mere "burning of the bosom". I have heard the Lord speak to me audibly and I know his promptings and nudges.

Do you not wonder why Phoebe left the LDS? Her tag line reads:

"I am no longer LDS; I am a Christian saved by the blood of the Lamb. "​

She is declaring that she, too, has the new birth and knows the Lord personally.

Your expectation of "your potential God intends for you" is weak compared to what God has given us. You will be a little god of your own planet (not!) whereas we are joined to the Almighty God who created all the heavens and the Earth. We are joined to the very Godhead of God Almighty. Your pipe dream will go up in smoke, but the promises made by Christ to the Elect who have the new birth is far greater.

I believe you have had the witness of the Spirit, no man can say Jesus is the Christ except he has that witness. But I too have had a witness, I think that witness has been with me since I was a little child singing Jesus loves me this I know because the Bible tells me so. When my mom converted to Mormonism/ Christian I was baptised with her, we were confirmed or received the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands the next day. They sang the hymn, I stand all amazed, the Holy Spirit say to my 8 year old heart remember that hymn you'll need it later.

When I was 12 I was being abused by a step grandfather. I was at girl camps when I felt the Holy Spirit so strongly I was overwhelmed with God's love for me, I sat and sobbed for an hour, I realized I wasn't alone. When I got home and grandpa showed up I told him to leave me alone and to never touch me again. He walked out the door and never came back. My I felt like.. like powerful, you might say I came to myself at an early age.

As I grew up I was confronted with a lot of anti Mormonism, the God maker movie came through. I could see the lies and I thought, these people are Christian? ??

In my late teens I recieved a blessing of healing, I had a priesthood elder put oil on my head and bless me, within hours my sickness was gone. Its an event I can not deny.

When I was 20 I was dating a young man for three weeks when the Holy Spirit said very plainly in my right ear "you will never let him go", took me by complete surprise. We've been married 44 years.

At the age of 28 a well meaning Evangelical neighbor witnessed to me. She made me stop and think. I realized I really didn't know the Bible as I should, so I got a note book and a Strongs Bible concordance. I started at the beginning and read through, I made my own index. I cross reference back and forth, comparing what each prophet wrote. When I was done I thank my neighbor for making me a better Mormon.

During that time the words of the hymn, I stand all amazed, came back to me. It say, " I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me. Confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me. I trembel to know that for me he was crusfied. That for me , a sinner he suffered he bled and died". Twenty years after my baptism the Holy Spirit once again whispered the truthfulness of those words and I was truly born of the Spirit.

I turned my sins over to him and asked forgiveness. Want to know his answer, he told me He had always been there. As i looked back i realized how true that was, over and over he guided me in my life.

Why have I been so blessed? I don't know, I'm a sinner like everyone else. However I think the difference between and those who reject the fullness of the Gospel is a willingness to learn, a desire to know more truth. I've never said it is enough, I know it all. I have the ears to hear and a heart willing to listen.

I don't know what else to say to you except ya just need to pray that you too can find the ears to hear.

 

[Rescued One]

...
4) women have no salvation unless married to a Mormon man. Not true. If you want to reach the highest levels of salvation you have to be married in the everlasting covenant. But there is a lot of people who will have salvation, but not the highest level of salvation.

There is resurrection to eternal life and resurrection to damnation, not multiple salvations.

Matthew 25
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left...
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[Rescued One]

The Mormon gods earned their positions through obedience to all commandments and ordinances:

2 Our Father Advanced and
Progressed Until He Became God (p. 152-153)

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: “Our Father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a Father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).


President Joseph F. Smith taught: “I know that God is a being with body, parts and passions.... Man was born of woman; Christ, the Savior, was born of woman; and God, the Father was born of woman” (Church News, 19 Sept. 1936, p. 2).

President Wilford Woodruff explained: “[God] has had his endowments a great many years ago. He has ascended to his thrones, principalities and powers in the eternities. We are his children.....We are here to fill a probation and receive an education” (Deseret News Weekly, 28 Sept. 1881, p. 546).

How does it help us to know that the basic elements of God’s life in a mortal world were the same as ours? President Brigham Young explained:

“He is our Father—the Father of our Spirits—and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are....

“...There never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through....

“It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been a finite being” (Deseret News, 16 Nov. 1859, p. 290).

Philippians 2:5-12. What does this passage say that Jesus did? ____________________________

Why did he feel justified in doing it?_______________________________
How does Jesus show us the way and provide us the power, through our obedience, to do just as he has done(compare John 15:1-8)?_______________________________
Search These Commandments, Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, Copyright 1984, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, pp. 152-153



“It is absolutely necessary that we should come to the earth and take upon us tabernacles; because if we did not have tabernacles we could not be like God, nor like Jesus Christ. God has a tabernacle of flesh and bone.
“. . . We must go through the same ordeal in order to attain to the glory and exaltation which God designed we should enjoy with Him in the eternal worlds. In other words, we must become like Him; peradventure to sit upon thrones, to have dominion, power, and eternal increase. God designed this in the beginning. We are the children of God. . . . We are precisely in the same condition and under the same circumstances that God our heavenly Father was when He was passing through this, or a similar ordeal.”
President Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 64

 

[Rescued One]

If you believe Jesus is divine, and Lucifer is Jesus brother, then that means Lucifer is divine, too. If Jesus is part of the Trinity, then if Lucifer is his brother, that makes Lucifer part of the Trinity. And you wonder why I don't think Mormons are Christians?

War in Heaven
This term arises out of Rev. 12:7 and refers to the conflict that took place in the premortal existence among the spirit children of God. The war was primarily over how and in what manner the plan of salvation would be administered to the forthcoming human family upon the earth. The issues involved such things as agency, how to gain salvation, and who should be the Redeemer. The war broke out because one-third of the spirits refused to accept the appointment of Jesus Christ as the Savior. Such a refusal was a rebellion against the Father’s plan of redemption. It was evident that if given agency, some persons would fall short of complete salvation; Lucifer and his followers wanted salvation to come automatically to all who passed through mortality, without regard to individual preference, agency, or voluntary dedication (see Isa. 14:12–20; Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:4–13; D&C 29:36–38; Moses 4:1–4). The spirits who thus rebelled and persisted were thrust out of heaven and cast down to the earth without mortal bodies, “and thus came the devil and his angels” (D&C 29:37; see also Rev. 12:9; Abr. 3:24–28).
War in Heaven

Pearl of Great Price, Moses 4
1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.
2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.
3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;
4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.
Moses 4

 

[Ken Rank]

You think we are wrong. I get that. I think that you would be better off if you accepted the restoration of the gospel of Christ. You may think we are wrong but that doesn’t mean we are wrong. You may be the one that is lacking the full understanding because of the faults of man. To me knowing where we came from and why we are here and where we are going after this life is important. Knowing and believing that there are living breathing prophets who do as was done in ancient times speaks with God and receives revelation for the good of the whole earth is important. You don believe it and that is okay. Your expectations of the next life limit you and your potentional God intended you to become. But the lower expectations you expect to receive in the next life will be realized. But God intended more for you.

I would suggest we all have error, ALL of us. And that as spoken through Jeremiah the Prophet, we ALL will receive correction in due course/time. All means all... including Alex, me, and you. The goal is to walk in harmony with the character traits of God... love, peace, joy, patience, long suffering, kindness, goodness and self control.... and to reflect those very traits (which are light) to the increasingly dark world around us. Salvation is a heart condition, not a doctrine condition... if we could be saved by our doctrine, we wouldn't have needed Yeshua to do the work he did on our behalf. We >>ALL<< have error and we all have truth... but until we are perfected, we won't have all truth.

 

[Ken Rank]

Ken, I understand what you think. However, I still disagree. There are many reasons. We are to speak the truth but that does not mean the results will be salvation. Salvation is a matter of the heart, but the when the wrong belief is in the heart, it is buttressed by reasons of the mind. There is a need to refute those reasons. On the day of judgement those who reject... and reject is what they are doing... the Gospel the truth will be revealed that they knew the truth and willfully rejected the Gospel.

It is true that as we go we are to share the Gospel, but it is also true that deliberate campaigns of evangelism and missions are to be undertaken. Otherwise Paul and the apostles who all left on missions to share the Gospel and died as martyrs (except John) were in the wrong. Which is not the case.

I admitted that I have never led a Mormon to Christ, but I have led hundreds to Christ in my 30 years as a follower of the Lord. How many have you led to Christ? What difference has your contribution to the Kingdom made? I hope you have led many and you have made a difference. Otherwise you are an armchair quarterback only.

God has this more in control than you could possibly know. I can't share openly on this board what I know but MIGHT be willing to share it in private. As for leading people to Christ... I don't believe in a repeat-after-me prayer, Alex, I believe in a person coming to Christ in faith and submitting themselves to His "Lordship" over their lives. I don't believe that Romans 10:9 is the basis for a repeat-after-me prayer ("that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.") I believe it is the basis for a person to submit their lives to him as LORD, MASTER... the one who rules their life. No repeat-after-me prayer saves anyone... only submission to Him as Lord does. God draws a man unto Himself (John 6:44) and the Great Commission is a call to teach not convert. So, it seems to me the weight is not on >>us<< to convert anyone, the weight is on God to draw people to Himself and THEN, when they are seeking, teaching them the ways of God. That is the fulfillment of the Great Commission.

 

[withwonderingawe]

So leaders can scale back the requirements for themselves but others must toe the line?

Were ALL of Joseph's and Brigham's marriages done in endowment houses. How about Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger . See this description from the linked source.

The source you have is not a good one.
The poof is the third wife on the list they have married to Joseph even before they met.

For Fanny they quote Ann Webb, she wasn't even born until four months after Joseph died, she never met him. Anything she says is heavily embellish heasey. Fanny did not have to go live with the Webb family, her own parents lived in the neighborhood. They also used the earliest date possible and have her age at 16 but those who have really looked into it say she was probably 18 or 19. According to those who were sort of actually there her parents consented to the marriage and she was more than willing. She also was not pregant, they've done a dna test on her great grandson (at least he claimed to be) and nothing. He's not a descendant of Joseph. What Emma knew we don't know, she certainly knew about the doctrine of plural marriage and may have consented to it too but when it came right down to it she didn't like it one bit. She may have thought of it as an adoption but then realized it ment more than that, whatever it was the whole thing blew up in Joseph's face and he didnt reintroduce it until 4 or 5 years later. Fanny married a non member not to long after this and lived in Indiana, I think. She never said a word about her marriage to Joseph.

That's really all we know.