LDS Mormons Call Them Saving Ordinances

[He is the way]

Yes, and what commandments did Christ our God give us? They weren't the Mormon "saving ordinances". Christ our God said "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment, and the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself'. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 22:37-40; emphasis added)

In other words, doing both of these is obeying the law as our Lord and Savior taught it and lived it (obviously). So we can't do any better or anything else that is good by following some other interpretation (as the errant Jews of His time or today who do not accept Him, but still follow the law of Moses, not knowing that it has been fulfilled), or some other actual set of laws or ordinances, as in Mormonism.

That's the thing that a lot of people (not just Mormons) do not seem to understand: Christ, having fulfilled the law, made it from then completely useless as a means of attaining salvation. Christ Himself is the means -- not anything that we do, as though we can say to Him "But Lord, I went to liturgy, and I prayed, and I did this, and I did that!" That's not a rebuke of any of those things; obviously, it is good to go to liturgy, and to fast, and to pray, and so on. But if we begin mistaking doing those things with being saved, then we have lost our focus on the One Who came and saved us such that we are no longer under the law, and hence no longer ought to have such a dry, mechanical approach to our faith. For sure, we are being saved, and (for instance) receiving His Holy Body and Blood in communion at and with the Church is necessary for salvation, as He said "whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:54, after saying that not doing so means that you have no life in you), but the same Holy Bible warns us that it is possible to receive the same to our damnation (1 Corinthians 11:29), so again we cannot be so mechanical as to say "I have received the Lord's Body and Blood, and therefore I am saved." You have life in you, yes, but your salvation -- everyone's salvation -- is to be worked out with fear and trembling. So if you're going to say "after all that you can do", you better be meaning "working out your salvation our with fear and trembling", as that actually is in the Bible (Philippians 2:12), whereas this "after all that you can do" business is not.

But we know that Mormons do not means that. They mean "Go to our super-exclusive special temple and perform the ritual there" and other similar things. There is no communion in there. (Yes, I checked. So sue me.) So what good is it? It is cannibalized Bible stories combined with things stolen from the Masons. And your other "works" involve being nice and helpful in a social sense. No doubt that's not a bad thing, but that's not working out your own salvation, or else people could "nice" their way into heaven, which we know is not true. For sure the heresiarchs such as Arius, Nestorius, and so on had friends and alliances and acquaintances, but what does that profit them? What does it profit any man to gain the whole world but lose his soul?

And when you perform these ordinances, you are not looking after your soul. You are not working on your salvation. We learn from the scriptures and the fathers (particularly the desert fathers and mothers, when it comes to topics like this) what it means to care for the soul, and it is nothing like the Mormon idea of works. There is no "after all you can do", there's only the struggle itself and the guidance to live it, and it comes from a place of experience of the risen Christ and the ascetic struggle that He lived for us in fasting and praying in the desert for 40 days and 40 nights, and defeating the devil, not weird Masonic rituals.

Abba Ammonas (Amun to the Copts), the successor of Abba Anthony, the Father of the Monks, counsels us as follows:

And if you see your heart weighed down temporarily, bring your soul before you and question it until it becomes fervent again and is set on fire in God. For the prophet David, too, on seeing his heart weighed down, said, 'I have poured out my heart by myself; I have remembered the days of old, and meditated on all Your works; I have lifted up my hands unto You; my soul thirsts after You as does a thirsty land.' This is what David did when he saw his soul grow cold, until he had made it fervent again; and he received the divine sweetness both by day and by night. Do this, then, my beloved, and you will grow, and God will reveal to you great mysteries.

+++

This is it. The Christian life is the internal ascetic struggle in which we are purified by bringing the body under the soul's control, submitting all that we are to God, just as Christ our God -- the perfect man and Holy God, of one essence with the Father while sharing 100% with us the humanity -- did not consider equality with God the Father a thing to be held onto, but released it and emptied Himself, and took the form of a servant, and suffered and died and rose again in the glorious resurrection, fulfilling the law on our behalf.

So we have no law to follow but those that He gave to us (read: we are not bound by the Mosaic law. as He as fulfilled it and brought to us the true way to salvation, through and in Him), as they are likewise a matter of our internal cleansing, renewal (making our souls "on fire" for God, as Abba Amun puts it), and submission, that when we love God and our neighbor, we show forth the light that is within us. At that level I'm sure Mormons will say "Hallelujah! We believe the same", but notice that this is all without any of the 'ordinances' that you say are still necessary (leaving aside the historical fact that the particular pattern followed by the Mormons did not exist until Joseph Smith made it). They are not necessary. I can say that yes, I go liturgy and such precisely as part of the process of working out my salvation, but for all the reasons I have already mentioned, it would be wrong for me to say "I go to liturgy, therefore _____" -- making some kind of statement about being saved because look what I'm doing; No! No...that's not right at all. At liturgy too, as in all places and times, I must work to awaken my soul...it's not about "I'm here, so therefore I'm doing a work for my salvation. Look at me go!" It's about "I'm here; I present myself before my Lord Who is among us in hopes that He will have mercy upon me and upon His gathered assembly because we are all in the same place, in a way: working out our salvation, begging that we be worthy to receive Him even though we know we are not, but that without Him we have no life in us." Does that sound like something we are doing, or is it something that He is doing? Sure, we have to show up because the liturgy is at a certain place and time because we live in the physical world where...things happen in places ...but if you look at the liturgical text, you'll see that it is all calling upon God, that He come and be among us, that He answer our petitions, that He nourish us and enliven our souls with His life-giving blood and and body. Even the priest who stands before the altar and calls upon the Holy Spirit directly in the Epiclesis also admits that he is the chief of sinners. We can do nothing of ourselves. God can do, and does do, everything.

This is the understanding of all Christianity, by the way. This is not some broadly Orthodox or particularly Egyptian stance, even though I have quoted a father most connected to that tradition. Witness, for instance, this Mozarabic hymn "Per Gloriam Nominis Tui", preserved in the 1500 AD reconstruction of the Mozarabic liturgy of one Fr. Cisneros (the Mozarabic liturgy was completed roughly a century before the Arab invasion, so we can assume that it must date back to around the 7th century, if not earlier, as the Visigoths turned from Arianism in 589 after the conversion of their king Reccared I). The Mozarabs were Western Christians of the Iberian peninsula, and yet see how their traditional prayers match this understanding:

The lyric in English is:

Through the glory of your Name, O Christ, Son of the living God, And through the intercession of the holy Virgin Mary, And the blessed James, and all your saints, Assist and have mercy on your unworthy servants; And be in our midst, O our God, Who lives and reigns to the ages of the ages. Thanks be to God!

I want you to notice that it is a petition that through God's glory XYZ should happen, and it even directly asks "and be in our midst, O our God".

There's no "after all that you can do" in here, either. That's simply not Christianity, and there's nothing you can post that will make it so.

You say "we are not bound by the Mosaic law." The commandments to Love God and to love our neighbor are from the Mosaic law:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 6:5)

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
(Old Testament | Leviticus 19:18)

18 ¶ Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.


So we do believe in saving ordinances. Here are a few:

(New Testament | John 3:5)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | John 6:54)

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Old Testament | Exodus 18:20)

20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

(New Testament | Romans 13:1 - 10)

1 LET every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[He is the way]

I can't say if all televangelists are Christians or non-Christians. I don't watch them and I've never known them. Furthermore, I didn't come here to judge a person's standing with God. I came here to talk about Mormonism.

I find it interesting that God told Jesse Duplantis that he needed a 54 million dollar private jet to be paid for by his followers. Is Christianity about giving to the rich or giving to the poor?

 

[dzheremi]

You say "we are not bound by the Mosaic law." The commandments to Love God and to love our neighbor are from the Mosaic law

Obviously, or else it would not have made any sense to say "On these two commandments hang all the law". That's the point: to the Jews around Him there was a lot more to it than that, but Christ distilled everything into the two laws that we must follow. Hence, the old law (all of the accumulated things that the Jews had to do as part of the codification of the laws of Moses) is of no use for salvation. Only Christ saves, not some Jewish (or Mormon, or Muslim, or whatever) laws or ordinances. This is why the Church decided against the Judaizers as far back is AD 50 at the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem. You don't need to be Jewish to be Christian. We are not under the law.

So we do believe in saving ordinances. Here are a few:

If you go back to the OP, you'll see what Mormonism as presented in its own materials refers to as its saving ordinances. It's not any of this stuff that you are now quoting from the scriptures, none of which any Christian disagrees with, though we do not confuse scripture with law or ordinance. The fact that you do just shows that Mormonism warps its adherents' ability to read the scripture, as you read our Savior's holy words as though He is a Mormon and is preaching Mormonism's false, works-dominated gospel, when reality that is historically, temporally, and theologically impossible. There is no support for Mormonism's ordinances in the holy scriptures.

 

[He is the way]

Obviously, or else it would not have made any sense to say "On these two commandments hang all the law". That's the point: to the Jews around Him there was a lot more to it than that, but Christ distilled everything into the two laws that we must follow. Hence, the old law (all of the accumulated things that the Jews had to do as part of the codification of the laws of Moses) is of no use for salvation. Only Christ saves, not some Jewish (or Mormon, or Muslim, or whatever) laws or ordinances. This is why the Church decided against the Judaizers as far back is AD 50 at the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem. You don't need to be Jewish to be Christian. We are not under the law.



If you go back to the OP, you'll see what Mormonism as presented in its own materials refers to as its saving ordinances. It's not any of this stuff that you are now quoting from the scriptures, none of which any Christian disagrees with, though we do not confuse scripture with law or ordinance. The fact that you do just shows that Mormonism warps its adherents' ability to read the scripture, as you read our Savior's holy words as though He is a Mormon and is preaching Mormonism's false, works-dominated gospel, when reality that is historically, temporally, and theologically impossible. There is no support for Mormonism's ordinances in the holy scriptures.

You said "We are not under the law." I don't know where you got that idea. It is certainly foreign to the Bible which states:

(New Testament | Romans 3:31)

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

(New Testament | Matthew 5:17 - 18)

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

(New Testament | Luke 16:17)

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.


While it is true that we are under grace it does not mean that we should sin (break the law):

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 15)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

 

[He is the way]

Obviously, or else it would not have made any sense to say "On these two commandments hang all the law". That's the point: to the Jews around Him there was a lot more to it than that, but Christ distilled everything into the two laws that we must follow. Hence, the old law (all of the accumulated things that the Jews had to do as part of the codification of the laws of Moses) is of no use for salvation. Only Christ saves, not some Jewish (or Mormon, or Muslim, or whatever) laws or ordinances. This is why the Church decided against the Judaizers as far back is AD 50 at the Apostolic Council in Jerusalem. You don't need to be Jewish to be Christian. We are not under the law.



If you go back to the OP, you'll see what Mormonism as presented in its own materials refers to as its saving ordinances. It's not any of this stuff that you are now quoting from the scriptures, none of which any Christian disagrees with, though we do not confuse scripture with law or ordinance. The fact that you do just shows that Mormonism warps its adherents' ability to read the scripture, as you read our Savior's holy words as though He is a Mormon and is preaching Mormonism's false, works-dominated gospel, when reality that is historically, temporally, and theologically impossible. There is no support for Mormonism's ordinances in the holy scriptures.

So these ordinances are the ones you question:
These ordinances are called saving ordinances. They include baptism, confirmation, ordination to the Melchizedek Priesthood (for men), the temple endowment, and the marriage sealing. With each of these ordinances, we enter into solemn covenants with the Lord.

By this I am assuming that baptism for the dead is one you disagree with, but it is Biblical as is confirmation ( receiving the Holy Ghost) or baptism by fire. Being ordained to the priesthood is also Biblical:
(New Testament | Hebrews 5:1)

1 FOR every high priest taken from among men is ordained for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins:

Nor is it wrong to enter into covenants with God. Sealing is also mentioned in the Bible:

(New Testament | Matthew 16:19)

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

You said "We are not under the law." I don't know where you got that idea. It is certainly foreign to the Bible which states:

Actually, he (like any Christian) gets that directly from the Bible, which states:

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Galatians 3
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
...
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Here's a good article listing 37 references from the Bible where it states we are no longer under the Law:
http://www.phildrysdale.com/2013/10/37-scriptures-that-prove-christians-are-not-under-the-law/

It's impossible to twist God's Word around to match mormon teaching. Mormon teaching is false because it claims we are under "laws and ordinances" while God's Word, the Bible, clearly states the opposite.

For this reason, Christian Gospel proclaims salvation is by grace entirely while mormon doctrine spreads the lie (that most other religions also spread) that a person must do WORKS (and ordinances) in order to achieve a certain level of worthiness to earn salvation.

 

[dzheremi]

I think there is some confusion going on here, which is understandable given how frequent it is even among Christians, between just what law is being argued against in the Christian scriptures, and what law is being argued for/established. The works of the law which do not save are the Jewish law, which we are not bound to (as I have said consistently). But there is still law to be followed, the key being that it is Christ's law -- it is what He has given us, through the holy faith which He is the author and perfecter of.

You said "We are not under the law." I don't know where you got that idea. It is certainly foreign to the Bible which states:

(New Testament | Romans 3:31)

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Exactly! The law is established through the faith given to us by Christ. This is why we are not antinomians, but follow what is given by Christ our God instead of the Jewish law which He fulfilled.

And before anyone goes there and says "But the ten commandments are part of/integral to the Jewish law, and you are not advocating that we abandon those!", of course, of course...but by the same token, it is rather standard in Christianity to look at those as having been given in a Christological sense in order to lead us to Christ, and it is kind of hard for Mormonism to make that same argument when it behaves as though even though He is come we still need to maintain all of the law. Hence we pray things like the following (from the Coptic Tasbeha/Midnight Praises) concerning His coming:

You are called righteous, O blessed one among women, the second tabernacle.

Which is called the holy of holies, wherein are the tablets of the covenant,

And the ten commandments, which are written by the finger of God.

They have directed us to the Iota, the name of salvation, of Jesus Christ.

Who was incarnate of you without change, and became the Mediator of a new covenant.

+++

The problem with Mormonism is that it treats all of this as though it didn't happen, or if it did it doesn't really matter, because we still have to follow something modeled on the old system whereby the 'ordinance' is followed because that in itself brings salvation (hence they are 'saving ordinances'). That's so wrong. Christ has come, and is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and offering life to those in the tombs. Why then do you continue in your dead rituals?

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

He said that, and then He fulfilled it by His death and glorious resurrection!

While it is true that we are under grace it does not mean that we should sin (break the law)

Who is claiming that this is what it means? I am Orthodox, not Lutheran. If I recall correctly, it is Luther who said to "sin boldly" (though I trust my Lutheran friends to explain that in some way as to make it mean something else...please), trusting in the Savior's mercy, but I do not say that, because none of my fathers and masters from the apostles on down say such things. Again, we are not antinomians. The point is not that we are not under any law, in the sense that there are no boundaries whatsoever whereby anyone can be said to be doing wrong (why would we have disciplinary canons, economia and akrivia, excommunication and anathematization, etc., if that were the case?), but that we are not under the Jewish law in particular, and what's more that our relationship to law as concerns law and faith is different than that of the Jews, Muslims, Mormons, etc.

We pray in every liturgy "We worship You O Christ, with Your good Father, and the Holy Spirit, for You have come and saved us." (emphasis added) This is the source of that difference. Mormons need to recognize it not just in word but in deed as well, and get rid of their "saving ordinances" which are entirely nothing of the kind.

 

[Rescued One]

You say "we are not bound by the Mosaic law." The commandments to Love God and to love our neighbor are from the Mosaic law:

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 6:5)

5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
(Old Testament | Leviticus 19:18)

18 ¶ Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.


So we do believe in saving ordinances. Here are a few:

(New Testament | John 3:5)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

(New Testament | John 6:54)

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
(Old Testament | Exodus 18:20)

20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.

(New Testament | Romans 13:1 - 10)

1 LET every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Mormons don't keep the 613 commandments.
Law of Moses
The name assigned to the whole collection of written laws given through Moses to the house of Israel, as a replacement of the higher law that they had failed to obey. The law of Moses consisted of many ceremonies, rituals, and symbols, to remind the people frequently of their duties and responsibilities. It included a law of carnal commandments and performances, added to the basic laws of the gospel. Faith, repentance, baptism in water, and remission of sins were part of the law, as were also the Ten Commandments. Although inferior to the fulness of the gospel, there were many provisions in the law of Moses of high ethical and moral value that were equal to the divine laws of any dispensation. The law of carnal commandments and much of the ceremonial law were fulfilled at the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The law functioned under the Aaronic Priesthood and was a preparatory gospel to bring its adherents to Christ. See JST Ex. 34:1–2 (Appendix); Rom. 3:20; Gal. 3:19, 24; Eph. 2:14–16; Heb. 7:11, 18–19; 9:7–14; 2 Ne. 25:24–30; Mosiah 12:27–13:32; 3 Ne. 9:17; 15:1–8; D&C 84:23–27.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/law-of-moses?lang=eng

 

[Rescued One]

Mormonism (Article by Stephen E. Robinson):
The Law After Christ:
Of course, both ancient tendencies can still be found among the modern Christian churches. There are modern Judaizers who insist, for example, that the Sabbath be observed according to the Law of Moses, on the seventh day (Saturday) rather than on Sunday. There are also modern antinomians who insist that a mere statement of belief in Christ guarantees salvation regardless of one’s subsequent behavior. In each case the cause of the error is the same—both the antinomian and the Judaizer fail to understand the fulfillment of the Law of Moses in Christ. The one fails to realize that the Law has not been revoked or destroyed; the other fails to realize that it has been fulfilled in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ and in the principles of his gospel. As Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.” (Matt. 5:17.)
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/09/the-law-after-christ?lang=eng

The Higher Law (article by Larry E. Dahl)
When the resurrected Savior visited some of his “other sheep” on the American continent, he discussed these and other topics—just as he had done during his mortal ministry in the Middle East against the backdrop of the Ten Commandmentsand the law of Moses, which he had given to the spiritually immature Israelites at Sinai more than a millennium earlier.

The law given at Sinai forbade killing one another. But the new law of Jesus forbids even getting “angry with [a] brother.” It is impressive that neither the Book of Mormon nor the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible includes the qualifying phrase “without a cause,” found in the King James Version. (Matt. 5:22.) Under the higher law, it seems, there is no justifiable cause for getting angry...

When we are not prepared or willing to live a higher law, the Lord, on occasion, may give us a lesser standard, a “schoolmaster” law. (Gal. 3:24.) But even strict obedience to the schoolmaster law is not the goal, nor is the law sufficient to exalt us. (See Mosiah 3:13–17; Mosiah 12:31–33; Mosiah 13:28–35.) The lesser law is a temporary measure, a minimum standard, to help prepare us to live willingly the fulness of the law of Christ. All who would be exalted must, through repentance and obedience, become the kind of people who desire and obey “the law of a celestial kingdom.” (D&C 88:22.)
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/02/the-higher-law?lang=eng

 

[He is the way]

Actually, he (like any Christian) gets that directly from the Bible, which states:

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Galatians 3
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
...
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Here's a good article listing 37 references from the Bible where it states we are no longer under the Law:
http://www.phildrysdale.com/2013/10/37-scriptures-that-prove-christians-are-not-under-the-law/

It's impossible to twist God's Word around to match mormon teaching. Mormon teaching is false because it claims we are under "laws and ordinances" while God's Word, the Bible, clearly states the opposite.

For this reason, Christian Gospel proclaims salvation is by grace entirely while mormon doctrine spreads the lie (that most other religions also spread) that a person must do WORKS (and ordinances) in order to achieve a certain level of worthiness to earn salvation.

What we have here is a failure of understanding the Bible because you cherry pick and post scriptures out of context and are unable to see the big picture. A person should NOT sin (break the commandments) after receiving grace:

(New Testament | Romans 6:15)

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20 - 22)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Without grace no one would be saved.

 

[Rescued One]

What we have here is a failure of understanding the Bible because you cherry pick and post scriptures out of context and are unable to see the big picture. A person should NOT sin (break the commandments) after receiving grace:

(New Testament | Romans 6:15)

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20 - 22)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Without grace no one would be saved.

"Without grace no one would be saved."

Romans 11
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Romans 4
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.


Mormonism:

 

[Rescued One]

What we have here is a failure of understanding the Bible because you cherry pick and post scriptures out of context and are unable to see the big picture. A person should NOT sin (break the commandments) after receiving grace:

(New Testament | Romans 6:15)

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.


(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20 - 22)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Without grace no one would be saved.

Why do YOU cherry pick?

 

[dzheremi]

What we have here is a failure of understanding the Bible because you cherry pick and post scriptures out of context and are unable to see the big picture.

Oh, this is really galling...unbelievable...why don't you look at your own posts and heal yourself, doctor.

A person should NOT sin (break the commandments) after receiving grace:

Show us where anyone has said otherwise. If you can't, stop posting in response to things that no one is claiming.

 

[He is the way]

Why do YOU cherry pick?

I try to show the complete picture associated with grace which is clearly manifest in the Bible which is that after we recieve grace through Christ's atonement we are not to sin which is the breaking of the commandments. Jesus Christ did not give us the sermon on the mount for no reason. He loved us enough to help us know what God the Father expects of us. The commandments are all about love. God is love and we should do our best to be like Him.

 

[He is the way]

Oh, this is really galling...unbelievable...why don't you look at your own posts and heal yourself, doctor.



Show us where anyone has said otherwise. If you can't, stop posting in response to things that no one is claiming.

Here is a story that might help:
"Suppose a murderer has been sentenced to death in the electric chair. Waiting for the execution the man would truly be under the law in every sense of the word; under the guilt, under the condemnation, under the sentence of death, etc. Just before the execution date the governor reviews the condemned man's case and decides to pardon him. In the light of extenuating circumstances the governor exercises his prerogative and sends a full pardon to the prisoner. Now he is no longer under the law but under grace. The law no longer condemns him. He is considered totally justified as far as the charges of the law are concerned. He is free to walk out of the prison and no policeman can lay hands upon him. But now that he is under grace and no longer under the law, can we say that he is free to break the law? Indeed not! In fact, that pardoned man will be doubly obligated to obey the law because he has found grace from the governor. In gratitude and love he will be very careful to honour the law of that state which granted him grace." From: http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/the-ten-commandments_page4.html Bold enfices added.

If we compare this story to the redeeming grace of the Savior it is much the same. Yet I am sure there will be those who disagree.

 

[dzheremi]

So you have no example of any Christian saying that we should sin, only a story to describe your idea of how grace works. Thank you.

 

[Rescued One]

Here is a story that might help:
"Suppose a murderer has been sentenced to death in the electric chair. Waiting for the execution the man would truly be under the law in every sense of the word; under the guilt, under the condemnation, under the sentence of death, etc. Just before the execution date the governor reviews the condemned man's case and decides to pardon him. In the light of extenuating circumstances the governor exercises his prerogative and sends a full pardon to the prisoner. Now he is no longer under the law but under grace. The law no longer condemns him. He is considered totally justified as far as the charges of the law are concerned. He is free to walk out of the prison and no policeman can lay hands upon him. But now that he is under grace and no longer under the law, can we say that he is free to break the law? Indeed not! In fact, that pardoned man will be doubly obligated to obey the law because he has found grace from the governor. In gratitude and love he will be very careful to honour the law of that state which granted him grace." From: http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/the-ten-commandments_page4.html Bold enfices added.

If we compare this story to the redeeming grace of the Savior it is much the same. Yet I am sure there will be those who disagree.

In Mormonism, eternal life is given only to those who obey and earn that blessing.

Doctrine and Covenants 130
20 There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—
21 And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.18-19


3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the [Mormon]Gospel.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng

 

[Rescued One]

I try to show the complete picture associated with grace which is clearly manifest in the Bible which is that after we recieve grace through Christ's atonement we are not to sin which is the breaking of the commandments. Jesus Christ did not give us the sermon on the mount for no reason. He loved us enough to help us know what God the Father expects of us. The commandments are all about love. God is love and we should do our best to be like Him.

1 John 2
2 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

As dzheremi told you, you have no example of Christians saying that we should sin.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

What we have here is a failure of understanding the Bible because you cherry pick and post scriptures out of context and are unable to see the big picture.

If you want to accuse me of posting scriptures out of context then you need to show where and how I have done so. Just stating it doesn't make it so. You have yet to show where I have done such a thing.

A person should NOT sin (break the commandments) after receiving grace:

(New Testament | Romans 6:15)

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

You're right, a person should not sin AFTER receiving grace.

I'm glad you pasted that verse because it proves my point. Notice it says "because we are not under the law". Directly stated - we are not under law. It goes on to say "but under grace". We are not under law, but under grace. For that reason we should not sin, but it is clear that we are NOT under law but we ARE under grace.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20 - 22)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Not sure what you intend to say with this passage - it is pointing out that people who have knowledge of the law and grace yet choose law cannot be under grace. That goes against your religion's assertion that grace comes with/after works of the law. You're defeating your own religion's teaching.

Without grace no one would be saved.

Correct. And with works nobody can be saved. You've already said that grace is stipulated by works, so when you say "without grace no one would be saved" you are saying that without WORKS no one would be saved, and that is wrong. Salvation is by grace, not works. Works are the fruit or outcome of salvation by grace. Works come after grace.

Mormon religion teaches in 2 Nephi 25:23:
"...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (emphasis mine)
Mormonism teaches we must do FIRST and then AFTER that the "grace" is received. The problem there is that if the works are done FIRST to establish a worthiness then what comes next is not GRACE, it is WAGES.

The Bible teaches that the Wages of sin is DEATH. Our works are sin. Nobody is sinless. The Bible teaches our wages are death, not Grace. The Bible teaches that Grace comes by faith through hearing and not of works, therefore Grace absolves us of the wages we deserve.

Mormonism teaches "worthiness" - that you must work and become "worthy" to GET from God. Mormonism teaches that their god is a magical genie and if you rub the lamp the right way you can control him. You want eternal life? Do this and this. You want to become a god yourself? Do this and this to be worthy. You want a blessing? Do a good work. You want more blessings? Do more good works.

Nothing is a free gift in Mormonism. Everything must be earned. Everything must be paid for, even if in part. Nothing is given. There is no Grace.

Mormonism takes their works-based system and sells it with lies, with false advertising.

Imagine if you were told that a new store opened up where everything was FREE! You go to that store and pick up a few items, and just to double check you ask a clerk "Is everything really free here?" The clerk says "Yes, sir! Look at the price tag - FREE! Everything in our store is free! No item in here is not free! It's all FREE!" So you get to the front and a checkout register clerk stops you and says "Excuse me sir, we just need to get your portion of the payment." You say, "Wait, I thought these items were FREE?" The clerk says, "Oh, they absolutely are! All items are FREE entirely, after all you can pay for them!"

See how they are just distorting and twisting the word "Free" in that scenario? A court of law would find them guilty of lying and would punish them. Well, the mormons play this game but they don't have to face a court of law. The mormons proclaim salvation by grace but then they add the stipulation, "after all you can do." And that stipulation negates the claim of grace, just as the stipulation "after all you can pay" negates the claim of an item being "free".

Mormon gospel is a false one and is the lie of Satan. Other than Christianity, all other religions teach that one must be worthy to receive good things, be it an afterlife, a blessing in this or the afterlife, etc. Mormonism is in that boat. Mormonism says "You must be worthy" for EVERYTHING, EVEN salvation. Mormonism is not Christian in any way, they simply steal all the Christian terminology in an effort to dupe and swindle people into joining their false religion.

 

[He is the way]

So you have no example of any Christian saying that we should sin, only a story to describe your idea of how grace works. Thank you.

The story wasn't mine but I agree with it and so does the Bible.