LDS Mormons Call Them Saving Ordinances

[Peter1000]

We believe Ephesians Chapter Two and all of Romans.

We have been saved unto good works; we will be glorified. The Bible is true. Having received the new spiritual birth and faith, a fruit of the Spirit, we've passed from condemnation to acceptance in Christ.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

1 John 5
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Romans 5
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

The Shepherd we follow won't lose any of His sheep. He is always with us.
View attachment 237270

I'm glad to hear you believe in Ephesians chapter 2 and all of Romans. Mormons happen to believe in the entire Bible. So we also believe in James and in John. Specifically, we believe in a couple of scriptures that I will post:
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

John 15:2
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

I suspect that you know about the James scriptures, so let's talk about the John scripture. Notice that Jesus is talking to "every branch IN ME".
Only when you are born again can you be a branch IN JESUS. So Jesus is talking to those who are born again and saved.
But here is the catch. If these branches do not produce fruit, they will be taken away by God.

How is that possible if you have been born again and you are saved from before the earth was made until all eternity?

Why would God take branches that are IN HIM away? It is because they did not produce fruit fit for his kingdom.

This is proof that OSAS (which 1/2 of the Christian world does not believe anyhow) is a faulty doctrine.

In Romans when Paul talks about "not by works" he is talking about the 'works of the law of Moses", not the good works that one does when they are properly baptized of the spirit and of the water and are truely born again. Those good works are part of the salvation process, even good works that Jesus has created for us to accomplish. So be careful when you say good works are not necessary to be saved.

 

[Peter1000]

So in Momonism you never know you have salvation in your life. Are your missionaries up front about this when they proselytize?

We are always up front about this, and you know what, most people I talk to tell me, I'm right, that the idea of being saved the second you believe was a bit of a stretch. Because they always knew that in their heart, they wanted to know more.

That revelation is an eye opener and a get-in-the-door opener that leads to conversion.

So no, we don't hide that doctrine.

 

[drstevej]

We are always up front about this, and you know what, most people I talk to tell me, I'm right, that the idea of being saved the second you believe was a bit of a stretch. Because they always knew that in their heart, they wanted to know more.

That revelation is an eye opener and a get-in-the-door opener that leads to conversion.

So no, we don't hide that doctrine.

Might want to reread this:

Any member that states or argues that Mormons are Christians, or Mormon members that claim to be Christians, may have their post(s) removed and may be subject to a staff action.

 

[Rescued One]

I'm glad to hear you believe in Ephesians chapter 2 and all of Romans. Mormons happen to believe in the entire Bible. So we also believe in James and in John.

Where have you been? You didn't read my signature?

Specifically, we believe in a couple of scriptures that I will post:
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Only before men! James doesn't disagree with Paul. Maybe I'll start another thread one day.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (see Galatians 5) given to us by God; we can't buy it or manufacture it. God only gives perfects gifts. His punishments aren't gifts.

John 15:2
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

I suspect that you know about the James scriptures, so let's talk about the John scripture. Notice that Jesus is talking to "every branch IN ME".
Only when you are born again can you be a branch IN JESUS. So Jesus is talking to those who are born again and saved.

Salvation per Mormonism doesn't occur until the next life, so that is not what you believe unless you disbelieve Mormonism.

But here is the catch. If these do not produce fruit, they will be taken away by God.

Those branches weren't saved. They died and were useless.

How is that possible if you have been born again and you are saved from before the earth was made until all eternity?

Why would God take branches that are IN HIM away? It is because they did not produce fruit fit for his kingdom.

"Since Jesus is the true Israel, no one who rejects Him is a true Israelite. Jesus identifies the true Israelite not according to physical ancestry but according to whether one abides in Him (John 15:5). The church is the Israel of God, and the Israel of God is defined not by ethnicity—for it includes Jews and Gentiles (Rom. 11)—but by Jesus.

"Moreover, the branches of the Israel of God must bear fruit. If they do not bear a spiritual crop to the glory of the Lord, God will cut those branches off; but those who do yield such a harvest are pruned so that they will bear even more (John 15:2). We cannot press this metaphor so far to say that branches that are cut off were truly saved; after all, Jesus promises that no one—not even we—can snatch us from His hand (10:27–30). Our Lord is alluding to the fact that it is possible to be in the church and not be regenerate. Those who profess faith in Christ falsely can be called 'branches' of a sort, because their profession connects them to the covenant communion in a way that is not true of those who openly deny Christ. But apart from true faith, such branches never receive nourishment from the vine. They cannot bear fruit and are therefore finally cut off."
https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/vine-and-branches/

This is proof that OSAS (which 1/2 of the Christian world does not believe anyhow) is a faulty doctrine.

It proves no such thing because a person who has truly been saved is producing fruit.

In Romans when Paul talks about "not by works" he is talking about the 'works of the law of Moses", not the good works that one does when they are properly baptized of the spirit and of the water and are truely born again. Those good works are part of the salvation process, even good works that Jesus has created for us to accomplish. So be careful when you say good works are not necessary to be saved.

Salvation isn't a process. The so called result of salvation is to be conformed to the image of Christ; IOW, the Christian has been set free from the power of sin, and the grace of God is doing a good work in him/her.

Good works are evidence, not the means, of salvation because they bring glory to God. Only saved persons can bring glory to God.

 

[dzheremi]

I'm glad to hear you believe in Ephesians chapter 2 and all of Romans. Mormons happen to believe in the entire Bible. So we also believe in James and in John. Specifically, we believe in a couple of scriptures that I will post:
James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Did you read the entire chapter before posting this? You quoted the verse directly before it, but before that also, St. James writes (verses 14-19): What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!

Do you notice the dichotomy that St. James is putting forth there, that some would say "You have faith, and I have works", and some others would say to those who are starving "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled" without actually doing anything for them? Both are equally wrong. It's not one without the other or one instead of the other, it's both together, because it doesn't profit anyone to simply believe 'academically' without having it change your behavior at all, and it's not good to say "look at all the works I do!" as though they justify you of the saving faith in Christ. Mormonism is definitely guilty of the latter, while some Christians (e.g., believers in extreme forms of Calvinism, I'd suspect...if those still exist) are guilty of the latter.

So it's not wrong to say that works do not save or justify apart from faith. Consider that Abraham's act was a demonstration of his faith -- it was his faith being manifested in his actions, as St. James would rightly appraise in his writings.

As I've put it here before in the context of a different conversation, just because being loving towards one's neighbor (an act, or 'work' if you will) is central to Christian theology doesn't mean that it can stand in for solid Christian theology, as though they are one and the same. At the same time, if one does not love his or her neighbor, can they really say that they are living out their Christian theology? No, because that is central to it -- it's just not the whole story, no matter how you cut it.

In other words, you may be misinterpreting James by invoking him in a context in which you are doing exactly what he says not to do -- separating works and faith as though they can have nothing to do with one another so that you may justify Mormonism's works-based salvation. Pointing out that someone with faith did something good is not saying that all you need to do is do good things and then it won't matter what your faith is, as Mormonism would have it to give itself space to dissent from core matters of the Christian faith because "look at all our good works!"

Your works will not save you.