LDS Mormonism vs. Scientology: A conversation with Chris Shelton and Jonathan Streeter

[fatboys]

I went to the Manhattan Temple to go to an endowment session and they didn't let me in, they told me it's "private", I said "Secret?" and they said, "Yes, that too" and then they asked me to leave.

No matter what some people tell you, you can't just go whenever you want to any of their temples, they will not let you in and they will kick you out.

Your making it up

 

[Jeepneytravel]

Scientology is a vicious cult...they call themselves a "church", but they have no supreme being to honour and worship, except at the alter of money and self adulation...they separate families who join, and destroy people in any way possible when they try to leave...very bad...google "Operation Clambake" for many facts about this creepy occultic organization.
Mormans are a question mark to me??????

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Scientology is a vicious cult...they call themselves a "church", but they have no supreme being to honour and worship, except at the alter of money and self adulation...they separate families who join, and destroy people in any way possible when they try to leave...very bad...google "Operation Clambake" for many facts about this creepy occultic organization.
Mormans are a question mark to me??????

Jeepneytravel, I agree with you on Scientology, probably one of the worst cults out there and they fit every stereotype of an evil cult.

Mormonism is not so much of a cult as Scientology. Mormonism has been mostly mainstreamed and they don't do a lot of what Scientology does. Mormonism is occultic, however - they are a religion that has levels of learning which one can only progress through by proving themselves "worthy" to move to the next level. Because of this, they end up doing things that come between family members. For example, their mormon Temples are off limits to everyone except those that get a special permission card (called a "recommend"). Since all the weddings of the "worthy" mormons are done in the temples, the result is that no family members (unless they also have recommends/temple membership) are allowed to go to the wedding. There are many cases where the parents of the bride and/or the groom are not allowed by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to attend THEIR OWN CHILD'S wedding!!! So they do some manipulative, occultic things.

Moreover, they are a very non-Christian religion but they try to give everyone the appearance that they are Christian and they even will tell people that they are "Christian". But, they are not - they are occultic.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Jeepneytravel, I agree with you on Scientology, probably one of the worst cults out there and they fit every stereotype of an evil cult.

Mormonism is not so much of a cult as Scientology. Mormonism has been mostly mainstreamed and they don't do a lot of what Scientology does. Mormonism is occultic, however - they are a religion that has levels of learning which one can only progress through by proving themselves "worthy" to move to the next level. Because of this, they end up doing things that come between family members. For example, their mormon Temples are off limits to everyone except those that get a special permission card (called a "recommend"). Since all the weddings of the "worthy" mormons are done in the temples, the result is that no family members (unless they also have recommends/temple membership) are allowed to go to the wedding. There are many cases where the parents of the bride and/or the groom are not allowed by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to attend THEIR OWN CHILD'S wedding!!! So they do some manipulative, occultic things.

Moreover, they are a very non-Christian religion but they try to give everyone the appearance that they are Christian and they even will tell people that they are "Christian". But, they are not - they are occultic.

Jeepneytravel, if you want to hear ACTUAL LDS beliefs, feel free to ask.

 

[KevinSim]

Again, the issue is that there is this situation wherein non-Mormons listen to ex-Mormons for information about the Mormon faith that present-Mormons won't tell them on account of it being sacred/a secret. You had written that you don't understand why people are adverse to getting accurate information first-hand, and the answer is that the Mormon religion refuses to share that with outsiders, so it has more to do with that refusal than wanting to get the information from secondary sources like Mr. Streeter.

Unless or until the Mormon religion opens itself entirely to outsiders (whether they are curious or critical), there is no sense to objecting to the video on the grounds that you did. Again, Mormonism itself creates this situation by not being open in the first place. You're the ones with all the stuff that you won't talk about. Nobody else put that stuff in your religion and told you to handle it the way that you do.

Why do people care what goes on in the rituals in the LDS temples? What difference does it make? The LDS Church has come out and stated quite clearly that the way to find out whether or not God inspired it is to ask God whether or not He inspired it, to ask Him really wanting to know, with real intent to reorient one's life in the direction God tells one to go. Either that makes sense or it doesn't. If it doesn't make sense, then shouldn't that in itself lead someone to the conclusion that the LDS Church is bogus? Why do we need to bring what goes on in the temple into the discussion? On the other hand, if the idea about asking God does make sense, then one should ask God if He inspired the LDS Church or not. If He says yes, then obviously whatever happens in the temple is inspired. If He says no, then obviously whatever happens in the temple probably isn't inspired. Why does what exactly happens in the temple even have to enter into the discussion?

 

[Rescued One]

No, thank you. As we've discussed previously, this is not possible for me, though I appreciate the offer. Maybe ArmenianJohn could visit, though. I believe he's in NY or thereabouts if there is a temple around that area that he could go to. I'd be interested to know what he would find there. I'm assuming that open house events don't actually feature the Mormon temple ritual (the one that's not open to anyone but Mormons with a temple recommend), do they?

You would learn zilch at a temple open house that you don't already know.

 

[Rescued One]

Jane, for the last time, we are not talking about the Coptic Orthodox Church right now. The topic of the thread is Mormonism vs. Scientology as discussed by ex-members of both in the video. Nothing in the video has anything to do with Coptic anything. (And the LDS church's YouTube channel has 2,249 videos on it, so I don't think your church agrees with you that "videos are in no way really going to teach anyone about any faith", or if they do, then they must know that they are wasting their time and resources.)

All the conference talks are in videos and they explain LDS teachings that LDS learn in lesson manuals. Recent teachings are less instructive as they try to either hide or change what was taught in the sixties through the nineties.

 

[FireDragon76]

You've had countless offers to visit the church websites, speak with people in private, and even visit actual LDS facilities.

How is it that we're being so "deceptive" you feel the need to listen to someone who has every motive in the world to lie through his teeth?



I've seen too many folks greet the church website like vampires greet sunlight. They have a narrative to maintain, and they're not going to let the facts get in the way of it.

Actual church theology is diametrically different from what a critic said it was? Backpedal like you're a Gawker staffer. Secular US history works prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the church was violently persecuted? Make stuff up so that you can claim the author is a Mormon spy. (That actually happened here on the forums, BTW.) Non-Mormon having to call people out for how they treat Mormons? Throw accusations of sock-puppetry.

Et cetra.



Unless the Orthodox faith opens itself to letting its members visit other denominations and obtain first-hand experience...

No, seriously. You're pointing fingers that can be pointed right back at you.

I very much disagree with the Orthodox approach on some things, but I would never accuse them of being secretive. There is absolutely nothing secretive in the Orthodox faith. It's contents are widely proclaimed. That is the whole point.

 

[Peter1000]

Just wanted to share a video I've currently got running as I do other work: a conversation on an ex-Scientologist's YouTube channel between Chris Shelton (the ex-Scientologist) and Jonathan Streeter, an ex-Mormon who has his own channel with videos on it about Mormonism.

I find this sort of comparison between two new religious movements to be very interesting (lots of parallels!), and I hope you guys can get something out of it too. The ex-Mormon talks about some of the things we have talked about on this messageboard before (e.g., the 'milk before meat' philosophy as Mormons apply it to their religion, who can discuss what and why, etc.), which is good to get some confirmation and additional details about.

You must forget that the "milk before the meat" philosophy come directly from the bible. The Church of Jesus Christ just confirms that concept in our day. If you don't think I am right, then read from the bible,
1 Corinthians 3:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

So do not berate The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for practicing the same knowledge dispersion as did Paul in The Church of Jesus Christ of the First Century. When a person is ready for more they will recieve it. It is a spiritual concept. If they never get prepared, they will not receive it, Paul never gave the Corinthians the meat of the gospel.

 

[Peter1000]

So then why did the Manhattan Mormon Temple kick me out when I went to see??? It's a lie to say that mormonism is open because it isn't - it's occultic and secretive. The mormon temples are secret places that will not let people in for their endowment ceremonies or other ceremonies and they will kick you out in a rude manner, as they did to me.

That's also why no mormon here will discuss the tokens and secret handshakes, like the Sign of the Nail and the Sure Sign of the Nail, which they use to determine if they are shaking hands with the Devil or a devil or someone else(Yes, true belief of mormons!)

Mormons complain and say "Oh, if you want to learn about a religion then go right to them!" But then when you ask mormons about their religion, they say "That's SACRED! I don't talk about that!" So we need videos from ex-mormons or anyone who is willing to talk about mormonism if we're going to learn.

the lds.org website doesn't really help much - I did a search there for "sign of the nail" and it doesn't give anything about it. Can you imagine, something supposedly sacred to the religion yet they hide it under a bushel??? Says a lot about the org.


This is true - mormons have a stereotype of non-mormons that we are "not worthy". They actually judge others to be "unworthy" of their special secrets. That is a stark difference between mormonism (the occult) and Christianity. In Christianity, people are equal in worth. Nobody is more or less worthy than another. In mormonism, it is a set practice to judge every person as "worthy" or "unworthy" and then they give special cards to those who are "worthy". Mormons who don't have that special membership card are considered "unworthy" for entry into the mormon temples. They are considered profane like the rest of the non-mormon world. In Christianity that never happens. Every church and cathedral is open to all. Nobody would ever get kicked out of St. Patrick's Cathedral the way I was kicked out of the Manhattan mormon temple.

First of all, I do not believe you when you say you were kicked out of the temple in New York. The only reason you would have been kicked out is if you had caused a problem, like yelling and swearing, and threatening the people there. Otherwise they told you that if you do not have a recommend, you could not go into the interior of the temple. And they would have tried to explain that to you in a very civil manner. So your being "kicked out" is bogus.

We do not discuss things done into the temple because they are sacred to us and to us only. You have already indicated that you have found these things on youtube, and they have no sacred appeal to you.
Well, they do to us and we will not discuss it with people who would mock and joke and poke fun of our sacred institutions. Our website is not going to give you that info either, because of the personal and sacredness of that action.

We do not have a stereotype of non-Mormons. Every non-Mormon is different and reacts differently to our doctrines. Do you have a stereotype of what a Mormon is?