LDS Mormonism vs. Scientology: A conversation with Chris Shelton and Jonathan Streeter

[dzheremi]

dzheremi, it is your Coptic members that your church keeps cult-like keep in the dark, devoid of any real information about other beliefs. I'm sorry, but videos are in no way really going to teach anyone about any faith. To truly learn a person has to go and see. There a SO many resources to go and see. But trying to teach a person whom refuses to see is impossible because of their choice to be blind.

Jane, for the last time, we are not talking about the Coptic Orthodox Church right now. The topic of the thread is Mormonism vs. Scientology as discussed by ex-members of both in the video. Nothing in the video has anything to do with Coptic anything. (And the LDS church's YouTube channel has 2,249 videos on it, so I don't think your church agrees with you that "videos are in no way really going to teach anyone about any faith", or if they do, then they must know that they are wasting their time and resources.)

If you don't have anything further to say about the contents of the video, fine, but I'm not going to sit here and have another thread derailed into a discussion on Coptic Orthodox ecclesiology. I've addressed yet again why you Mormons have no point in comparing it with Mormonism's Gnostic-like orientation and the problems that it creates for you (which are not shared by any Christian church), so any further attempts to bring this up will be ignored so as to not repeat myself.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

dzheremi, it is your Coptic members that your church keep in the dark, devoid of any real information about other beliefs. I'm sorry, but videos are in no way really going to teach anyone about any faith. To truly learn a person has to go and see. There a SO many resources to go and see. We have open chapels, open worldwide conferences, missionaries bending over backwards, fellowship activities, open houses, websites, free manuals, free religious classes for all and different background, etc.

So then why did the Manhattan Mormon Temple kick me out when I went to see??? It's a lie to say that mormonism is open because it isn't - it's occultic and secretive. The mormon temples are secret places that will not let people in for their endowment ceremonies or other ceremonies and they will kick you out in a rude manner, as they did to me.

That's also why no mormon here will discuss the tokens and secret handshakes, like the Sign of the Nail and the Sure Sign of the Nail, which they use to determine if they are shaking hands with the Devil or a devil or someone else(Yes, true belief of mormons!)

Mormons complain and say "Oh, if you want to learn about a religion then go right to them!" But then when you ask mormons about their religion, they say "That's SACRED! I don't talk about that!" So we need videos from ex-mormons or anyone who is willing to talk about mormonism if we're going to learn.

the lds.org website doesn't really help much - I did a search there for "sign of the nail" and it doesn't give anything about it. Can you imagine, something supposedly sacred to the religion yet they hide it under a bushel??? Says a lot about the org.

But trying to teach a person whom refuses to see is impossible because of their choice to be blind. When people don't see each other, stereotypes run rampant and hatred so easily breeds against "those people". Loving our neighbor is so much harder when we close out eyes and refuse to see them.

This is true - mormons have a stereotype of non-mormons that we are "not worthy". They actually judge others to be "unworthy" of their special secrets. That is a stark difference between mormonism (the occult) and Christianity. In Christianity, people are equal in worth. Nobody is more or less worthy than another. In mormonism, it is a set practice to judge every person as "worthy" or "unworthy" and then they give special cards to those who are "worthy". Mormons who don't have that special membership card are considered "unworthy" for entry into the mormon temples. They are considered profane like the rest of the non-mormon world. In Christianity that never happens. Every church and cathedral is open to all. Nobody would ever get kicked out of St. Patrick's Cathedral the way I was kicked out of the Manhattan mormon temple.

 

[Jane_Doe]

(And the LDS church's YouTube channel has 2,249 videos on it

And how many did you watch and start threads on?

If you don't have anything further to say about the contents of the video

I'm pointing out where people can get real information, not the spun stuff.

, fine, but I'm not going to sit here and have another thread derailed into a discussion on Coptic Orthodox ecclesiology. I've addressed yet again why you Mormons have no point in comparing it with Mormonism's Gnostic-like orientation and the problems that it creates for you (which are not shared by any Christian church)

Dzheremi, how would you say that we (LDS or any other group) are supposed to to better teach a people whom are forbidden from visiting another faith and (I imagine) have very high consequences for converting to another faith?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

And how many did you watch and start threads on?

I'm pointing out where people can get real information, not the spun stuff.

Where can I get real information on the Sure Sign of the Nail??? You haven't told me that, ever.

 

[Jane_Doe]

So then why did the Manhattan Mormon Temple kick me out when I went to see???

Because you're personally not yet ready to be an endowed LDS priest. Same reason Orthodox won't let me be a priest (heck, they won't even let me speak from the pulpit or share in the Lord's Supper).

 

[dzheremi]

Orthodox won't let you be a priest because you're not a Christian, you're not baptized in an Orthodox Church, and you're a woman. They would still give you communion if you were a baptized Orthodox Christian, and most importantly they'd still tell you all about it, point you to resources about it including online places where you can see it in its entirety (that you probably wouldn't watch because of some weird anti-video bias), and invite you to come and see it in person the same as they do anyone even though you're not Orthodox, or even Christian.

Mormons won't even discuss their ritual in detail because...?

Again, there's no comparison. Stop trying to make this thread about something that it's not.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Because you're personally not yet ready to be an endowed LDS priest. Same reason Orthodox won't let me be a priest (heck, they won't even let me speak from the pulpit or share in the Lord's Supper).

I'm not asking to become an endowed LDS priest - why do you think I asked that? I only wanted to learn about it, not become one. Are you saying that the information about it is secret and only open to those who become endowed LDS priests? (We all know the answer, you can say it, we know it's secret because that's part of the occultic nature of mormonism to hide information like that.)

And yet again, you complain that I watched the video instead of going right to the faith I want to learn about (mormonism) and when I ask you, you tell me that I am not ready, I can't be told unless I become a lds priest, etc. and the lds.org site doesn't tell me anything.

So that's your response? "Don't go to others for information about mormonism, come to us! Oh, but don't come to us - we can't tell you, it's sacred!" So in other words you don't want anyone to learn anything about mormonism from anywhere until they are going to join the occultic religion? So you're religion is no different from masonry or witchcraft - they have the same exact rules. Christianity is the opposite, however.

As for being an orthodox priest, you can learn whatever you want to know about the process, the ritual, the words, etc. - we don't hide any of that. We are not occultists, we are Christians, we don't hide secrets.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I'm not asking to become an endowed LDS priest - why do you think I asked that? I only wanted to learn about it, not become one.

Then you are welcome to learn about Christ's sacrifice and duties of a priest at your local LDS chapel.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Then you are welcome to learn about Christ's sacrifice and duties of a priest at your local LDS chapel.

That's not true at all. They don't talk about the Sure Sign of the Nail, and neither will you or anyone else, or even your religion's website.

Why do you persist in the lie that your religion is open about their information?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Orthodox won't let you be a priest because you're not a Christian, you're not baptized in an Orthodox Church, and you're a woman. They would still give you communion if you were a baptized Orthodox Christian

If a person wants to visit an LDS church, they may partake in communion, regardless of their beliefs. If they would like to speak from the pulpit expressing their belief in Christ, they may also do that, regardless of their gender. (Assuming it's our monthly open mic Sunday).

 

[Jane_Doe]

That's not true at all.

You are more than welcome to learn about the crucifixion to your hearts content.

 

[dzheremi]

And how many did you watch and start threads on?

Why are you asking me this? Do I have to start threads on something just because it exists? You've completely missed the point.

I'm pointing out where people can get real information, not the spun stuff.

Where on earth are they supposed to get 'real information' on things that the Mormons refuse to discuss? That's the whole reason why this discussion has developed the way that it has: you complain that things are being 'spun', are inaccurate, etc., and they very well may be, but without the Mormons themselves providing accurate information (because they won't provide any information, on principle), these 'spun' sources become the only sources where people can learn this stuff without having to become Mormon and get a temple recommend.

So enough with this silly contention that you're pointing out where people can get real information. No you aren't. You know this information is purposely withheld from people.

Dzheremi, how would you say that we (LDS or any other group) are supposed to to better teach a people whom are forbidden from visiting another faith and (I imagine) have very high consequences for converting to another faith?

First of all, if you can't truly teach anyone without converting them first, then your faith is Gnostic garbage. Christian teaching and doctrine is preached openly to everyone, not hidden to be revealed only to the initiated.

And second of all, asking about 'better teaching' when you won't reveal any teachings on certain matters beyond 'this is too sacred to discuss before the pigs of Satan' is putting the cart before the horse, isn't it? Start by discontinuing that attitude and the culture that fosters it, and then start talking about your real doctrine and practices, i.e., the 'too sacred' stuff.

That'd be the best way, or at least the most honest way, of teaching people what your religion is really all about.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Why are you asking me this?

Simply pointing things out...

Where on earth are they supposed to get 'real information' on things that the Mormons refuse to discuss?

I told you: temple theology is all about the plan of salvation. We are more than happy to discuss that, in fact it's the second missionary discussion.

 

[dzheremi]

Y'know, based on the way this thread is going, I think that even if I were to post the videos that were clandestinely taken in the LDS temple that are on YouTube (which I am not going to do; don't worry, Mormons), our resident Mormons would still find some way to say that what is seen there is being misconstrued, and turn it back over onto someone else so as to try to make their religion not look so very strange and un-Christian (which, believe me, having seen a few of those videos, the ceremony definitely does).

Mormonism seems to be very embarrassed of itself in a multiconfessional environment, as well it should be.

 

[dzheremi]

Simply pointing things out...

Oh, okay then... . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I told you: temple theology is all about the plan of salvation. We are more than happy to discuss that, in fact it's the second missionary discussion.

You are dancing around the topic.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

You are more than welcome to learn about the crucifixion to your hearts content.

Who was talking about the crucifixion? Why the subject change?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Orthodox won't let you be a priest because you're not a Christian, you're not baptized in an Orthodox Church, and you're a woman. They would still give you communion if you were a baptized Orthodox Christian, and most importantly they'd still tell you all about it, point you to resources about it including online places where you can see it in its entirety (that you probably wouldn't watch because of some weird anti-video bias), and invite you to come and see it in person the same as they do anyone even though you're not Orthodox, or even Christian.

Mormons won't even discuss their ritual in detail because...?

Again, there's no comparison. Stop trying to make this thread about something that it's not.

Oh they have requirements, imagine that!

 

[Jane_Doe]

Who was talking about the crucifixion? Why the subject change?

Not a subject change at all.

 

[dzheremi]

Oh they have requirements, imagine that!

Yes, they do. To have a particular role in service of their church, not to talk about what is involved in their church ritual. (I am a layperson, and even I can talk about it, show examples of it, answer questions about it, etc. We do not have this excuse that it is somehow 'too sacred' to be shared with others.)

I find it hard to believe that Mormons would not understand this distinction.

 

[NYCGuy]

Hmm. Not surprising, given the attitude of Mormons regarding this issue. So I guess an open house would just be to show off the building and kinda meet the neighbors, then? (And of course to encourage people to become Mormon so that they can one day come in when it's not an open house, assuming they can get a temple recommend.)

When you go to a temple open house, you will see the rooms inside. You will certainly not see any of the ordinances they perform there (i.e. baptisms and other ordinances for the dead, endowment, sealing).