LDS More Information:

[Peter1000]

I'd take those scholars, too. What Peter apparently doesn't realize is that the inspired words were already given and written down. There is no need for a "prophet" to translate.

As with Joseph Smith, any "prophet" who tries to alter what has already been given to us will be scrutinized. The JST translation attempt only shows he was no prophet.

Do you think an unispired translation is OK?

 

[Peter1000]

Peter, why do you make statements like this? Seriously, man? Where is your head when you're typing this stuff? It seems like you'd have us believe that the LDS wrote the KJV, instead of it being a product of the English Church. It's really easy to deflate this kind of thinking by simply asking you: If we 'mainline' Christians (read: Christians) hate it so much, then why is it in our Bibles?

Again, you impute thoughts and motivations and the like onto people you clearly know nothing about, and then proceed from there to destroy an argument that came entirely from you -- no 'mainline' (mainstream) Christian.



Again, where is your proof that this is what any mainstream Christian believes? All the ancient commentaries and homilies on Colossians that I have been able to find show that this is precisely what men like our father St. John Chrysostom (d. 407) preached against, and that certainly wasn't because they believed in or taught Mormonism instead.

You have an incredibly skewed view of Christianity and its history (including its scriptures), which appears to be informed by nothing more than your own presuppositions about what must've happened and why, and the result is an argument that has nothing to do with reality, either past or present.



I've never heard of any of these translations. Do you have anything more mainstream to present, like maybe from a version that is older than the 1990s or 2000s and used by established, known churches with historical roots? Looking around, it appears that two of the three (the ERV and NCV) are rooted in versions of the Bible specifically produced for deaf people to read and understand (since deaf people have trouble reading standard English since their first language is sign language, not standard spoken English), so it makes sense that they would perhaps be worded differently due to being meant for a specialized audience whose native language operates differently than Standard English.

I can't make heads nor tails of what the Voice translation is about, but from the page on Biblegateway that talks about it, it seems they are going for some kind of artistic rendering of text. They say: "The Voice Bible is a different sort of translation. It combines the relative strengths of scholars who are experts in the original languages and modern writers, musicians, and poets who are skilled in their use of English, our target language. Our idea was to set up a collaborative process whereby scholars and writers could work together to create a translation that was faithful and accurate to the original languages while at the same time beautiful and readable to an English-speaking audience."

Okay then.

I'm not aware of which churches actually use any of these. The major forms of the Bible text are ones like the KJV, NKJV, Douay-Rheims, NIV, NAB, etc. as used by Catholics (NAB, D-R, etc.), Protestants (KJV, NKJV, NIV), and Orthodox (e.g., in my own church we use NKJV in English; the EO also have their OSB, though I don't know if that is actually read from in church or not). These other more specialized and obscure versions aren't very good sources to make this point, since most people will not be familiar with them to begin with.

Does the OSB say: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature? Or does it have something different for verse 15?

 

[dzheremi]

I don't know. You'd do better to ask an Eastern Orthodox person that. I don't have one. In the NKJV (which we use liturgically), it says "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you think an unispired translation is OK?

And what makes you think it is uninspired?? There is no precedence for stones in a hat as a prerequisite for inspiration from the Holy Spirit. He needs no such gimmicks. The Holy Spirit speaks directly to the heart. An uninspired translation of a false manuscript that is not around to be examined is not of the Holy Spirit.

 

[fatboys]

And what makes you think it is uninspired?? There is no precedence for stones in a hat as a prerequisite for inspiration from the Holy Spirit. He needs no such gimmicks. The Holy Spirit speaks directly to the heart. An uninspired translation of a false manuscript that is not around to be examined is not of the Holy Spirit.

If you had a choice between a scholar and a real true prophet translation which would you choose?

 

[mmksparbud]

If you had a choice between a scholar and a real true prophet translation which would you choose?

Already answered this in post #35.

 

[fatboys]

Already answered this in post #35.

Do you believe that God can cause a prophet of God to translate the true intent more close than a scholar could?

 

[fatboys]

Already answered this in post #35.

Do you believe that God could call a prophet to translate?

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you believe that God can cause a prophet of God to translate the true intent more close than a scholar could?

Why? He can talk to a scholar the same as He does to a prophet. He gives to each their own gifts and blesses each in that gift.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you believe that God could call a prophet to translate?

See post #49.

 

[Peter1000]

mmksparbud,

The problem that mainstream Christians have is that Colossians1:15 says something that is blasphemous to them. It says that Jesus is part of the creation. It says that he is the first to be created.

How is it possible for Jesus to be part of the creation?
You gasp at the idea that this scripture is saying that Jesus is somehow created. You gasp at the idea that Jesus could not be divine if he were part of the creation.

So knowing that the scripture is wrong, Jesus could not be the firstborn of every creature, you take it upon yourself to correct it.

This is the entire point of this discussion. You have no problem adding and substracting words from the bible if it supports your theology. Colossians 1:15 does not follow your theology, it follows Mormon theology precisely, thus it is wrong and must be changed.'

So the word you focus on is 'firstborn'. It is broken into 2 parts, 'first', and 'born'.
The word 'first' is easy because 'first' can mean lots of things. It can mean 'the most important', or 'superior' and that is the ticket, that is what we will focus on. 'Superior' is much closer to our thoughts than 'first'.

Now lets focus on 'born'. Wow, born is tougher than we thought, so lets just stress 'superior' and pretty much ignore 'born'. And so now the scripture is starting to take our theological slant. 'the Superor One' of every creation. From that standpoint we can now out talk anyone that believes in the old scripture.

Some translators are not satisfied with changing the tone of the scripture from 'firstborn' to 'superior', with asterisks and footnotes, they actually go into the scripture and change the words.
So they change the word 'firstborn' to 'ruler', which is another form of first or superior, and completely move the scripture to support their theology. No nagging weird words to get in their way.

The same changing technique is used to change
Revelation 3:14
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

The word 'beginning' is changed to 'ruler' also, and that changes the scripture from the Mormon thought that Jesus is the beginning of the creation of God, to mainstream Christian thought that Jesus is the ruler of the creation of God.

Whew, now we can read these 2 scriptures and be comfortable in our theology, doesn't matter that we had to add or substract from the bible to get there.

LDS believe that Jesus is divine. He was the God of the OT, but he did change forms. Changing form does not constitute creature or beginning, or created. It means Jesus changed form and was divine before he changed form, and was divine after he changed form. He has changed form many times, but he has existed for all eternity and will exist for all eternity. He was not made, he had no beginning and will have no end.
But here is the interesting part of Jesus's existence, it is the same as for you and I.

That is why we are joint-heirs with Jesus (Romans 8:17) He was anointed with divinity long before we will be, but his progression from form to form is just like ours. His Father is our Father, his God is our God (John 20:17). He was the firstborn, he was the beginning of all of us (Colossians 1:15 & Revelation 3:14)
We will eventually partake of the same divine nature as he does now, having escaped the corruption of this world
(2 Peter 1:4).

 

[mmksparbud]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Peter1000]

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I believe this. But what of Revelations 3:14???

 

[mmksparbud]

I believe this. But what of Revelations 3:14???

New International Version
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

New Living Translation
"Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen--the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's new creation:

English Standard Version
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

Berean Study Bible
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation.

Berean Literal Bible
And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of God's creation.

New American Standard Bible
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

King James Bible
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation says:

International Standard Version
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:

NET Bible
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: "This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God's creation:

New Heart English Bible
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And to The Messenger of the assembly of the Laidiqians write: “Thus says The Eternal, The Trustworthy and True Witness, and The Source of The Creation of God:”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says:

New American Standard 1977
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Jubilee Bible 2000
And unto the angel of the congregation {Gr. ekklesia – called out ones} of the Laodiceans write; Behold, he who saith, Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

King James 2000 Bible
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American King James Version
And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things said the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version
And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God:

Darby Bible Translation
And to the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

English Revised Version
And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Webster's Bible Translation
And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Weymouth New Testament
"And to the minister of the Church at Laodicea write as follows: "'This is what the Amen says--the true and faithful witness, the Beginning and Lord of God's Creation.

World English Bible
"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:

Young's Literal Translation
'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;

 

[fatboys]

Why? He can talk to a scholar the same as He does to a prophet. He gives to each their own gifts and blesses each in that gift.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Really? A scholar usually thinks more of himself than wanting to listen to God. And what your saying is that uninspired man who hasn't been called by God but by their own gifts that the have spent perhaps a life time in learning is more qualified than a prophet of God? Interesting. By this logic the the scholars of Jesus's time would have been more qualified to be the savior than Jesus was when he taught them when he was twelve years old.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Do you think an unispired translation is OK?

Scripture in its original languages was inspired and written down for us. It does not take "inspiration" to translate from one language to another. One does not need to be a prophet or use a seer stone to do so!

Anyone who is knowledgeable in Greek can translate this from John 3:16:

Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Whether or not they believe it, or believe that it came from God is a different matter.

 

[mmksparbud]

Really? A scholar usually thinks more of himself than wanting to listen to God. And what your saying is that uninspired man who hasn't been called by God but by their own gifts that the have spent perhaps a life time in learning is more qualified than a prophet of God? Interesting. By this logic the the scholars of Jesus's time would have been more qualified to be the savior than Jesus was when he taught them when he was twelve years old.

Glad to know you can look into the heart and soul of people. What makes you think a scholar is not led by God? God can inspire anyone---an unlearned fisherman or a very educated member of the Pharisees, a ruler of the Jews as Nicodemus, or a leading authority of the Sanhedrin, a Pharisee doctor of Jewish law of whom Paul states he was "brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel"---the word prophet does not mean any man is one---JS has not met the biblical qualifications of one. He is one only in the eyes of Mormons. It has been proven that many of his predictions did not come to pass, but that is ignored and glossed over and made excuses for. A prophet is called by God, not himself. And even a Roman Centurion can be led by the Holy Spirit. God is not hampered by anyone's education, whether he has none or whether he is highly educated---you could find no one more educated than Daniel, or Moses. There are many, many false prophets.

 

[Peter1000]

New International Version
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

New Living Translation
"Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen--the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's new creation:

English Standard Version
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

Berean Study Bible
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation.

Berean Literal Bible
And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of God's creation.

New American Standard Bible
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

King James Bible
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation says:

International Standard Version
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:

NET Bible
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: "This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God's creation:

New Heart English Bible
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And to The Messenger of the assembly of the Laidiqians write: “Thus says The Eternal, The Trustworthy and True Witness, and The Source of The Creation of God:”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says:

New American Standard 1977
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

Jubilee Bible 2000
And unto the angel of the congregation {Gr. ekklesia – called out ones} of the Laodiceans write; Behold, he who saith, Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

King James 2000 Bible
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American King James Version
And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things said the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version
And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God:

Darby Bible Translation
And to the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

English Revised Version
And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Webster's Bible Translation
And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Weymouth New Testament
"And to the minister of the Church at Laodicea write as follows: "'This is what the Amen says--the true and faithful witness, the Beginning and Lord of God's Creation.

World English Bible
"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:

Young's Literal Translation
'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;

Thank you, see how the meaning changes as per version of the bible you read. Which version is right?

Is Jesus the beginning of the creation of God, or is Jesus the ruler of the creation of God. Way different.

LDS believe Jesus was the beginning or the first of the creation of God and that many of his brothers and sisters followed. You believe he is the ruler of the creation of God. Which ever way you believe will either give you the truth, or give you a false impression of Jesus Christ. So which one is right?

LDS have a strong position in this doctrine due to the fact that many versions say he is the beginning, and Colossians 1:15 confirms Jesus is the beginning or firstborn of all the creations of God. Regardless of what Strongs concordance says, we have a strong position that JS was spot on.

Again since Jesus was the beginning or the firstborn of the creations, and reached the highest point of Godhood, it gives us hope as his brothers and sisters and joint-heirs that we too can reach the same place that he has reached. That is the whole point. Elevate your thinking and look at the incredible person you are and can become. It give me a reason to overcome this world of corruption and be like him. Jesus even promises us that after all that we can do he will do the rest and through his grace, he will make us 100% free from sin and allow us to take the final step to exaltation.

 

[Peter1000]

Scripture in its original languages was inspired and written down for us. It does not take "inspiration" to translate from one language to another. One does not need to be a prophet or use a seer stone to do so!

Anyone who is knowledgeable in Greek can translate this from John 3:16:

Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον ὥστε τὸν υἱὸν αὐτοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκεν ἵνα πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν μὴ ἀπόληται ἀλλ᾽ ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Whether or not they believe it, or believe that it came from God is a different matter.

You really think that inspiration is not required to translate the Word of God to another language???

 

[mmksparbud]

Thank you, see how the meaning changes as per version of the bible you read. Which version is right?

Is Jesus the beginning of the creation of God, or is Jesus the ruler of the creation of God. Way different.

LDS believe Jesus was the beginning or the first of the creation of God and that many of his brothers and sisters followed. You believe he is the ruler of the creation of God. Which ever way you believe will either give you the truth, or give you a false impression of Jesus Christ. So which one is right?

LDS have a strong position in this doctrine due to the fact that many versions say he is the beginning, and Colossians 1:15 confirms Jesus is the beginning or firstborn of all the creations of God. Regardless of what Strongs concordance says, we have a strong position that JS was spot on.

Again since Jesus was the beginning or the firstborn of the creations, and reached the highest point of Godhood, it gives us hope as his brothers and sisters and joint-heirs that we too can reach the same place that he has reached. That is the whole point. Elevate your thinking and look at the incredible person you are and can become. It give me a reason to overcome this world of corruption and be like him. Jesus even promises us that after all that we can do he will do the rest and through his grace, he will make us 100% free from sin and allow us to take the final step to exaltation.

What is consistent with the whole of the bible is that Jesus is the head of all creation for it
is Him that created it all. Anything else is false. There is no such thing as exaltation as you people see it. Eternal life is the reward given to the saved---all the saved. The bible speaks of no such thing as different stages of salvation, you either are saved or not. As we let Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, direct our hearts we become His reflection. JS is as wrong as you can get.