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Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Old Lady, Sep 29, 2017.

  1. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

    +10,398
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    Correcting the Bible by the spirit of revelation, the Prophet restored a statement of John the Baptist which says that Christ is the Elias who was to restore all things. ([JST], John 1:21–28.) By revelation we are also informed that the Elias who was to restore all things is the angel Gabriel who was known in mortality as Noah. (D. & C. 27:6–7; Luke 1:5–25; Teachings,p. 157.) From the same authentic source we also learn that the promised Elias is John the Revelator. (D. & C. 77:9, 14.) Thus there are three different revelations which name Elias as being three different persons. What are we to conclude?"
    Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual Section 27 "When Ye Partake of the Sacrament"

    When I think about it --- that Joseph Smith thought he could correct the Bible --- :sick:

    I pray for God's mercy on those who still follow that man. I'm being very sincere. I hope my sister accepted Christ before she passed away.
     
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  2. frienden thalord

    frienden thalord Well-Known Member

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    OH dear I sure hope that for your sister too. Oh I sure do hope she did.
    Thanks for the good work at helping others out that you do phoebe.
     
  3. Ironhold

    Ironhold Member

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    I take it that you condemn all translations of the Bible, then? As a lot of them include "corrections" and other alterations as well above and beyond changing the language...
     
  4. frienden thalord

    frienden thalord Well-Known Member

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    phoebe ann, I don't care what anyone says about ya, the Mormons the catholics
    from the pope , presidents even ironhold and others say about ya. I LOVE YA SISTER
    keep on warning
     
  5. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    Thank you for your kind thoughts!

    She had cancer and only lived to be forty-five. Her husband wouldn't give her the testimony I sent that had been written by our great-grandmother who was a devout Christian. I called her when she was in the hospital and tried to witness to her. She started to cry and her husband took the phone away.

    Colossians 3
    23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

    Ephesians 6
    7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:

    It is a privilege and joy to serve the Lord.
     
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  6. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    There is a big difference between finding a more accurate use of a word according to the language and customs of the original language and time and teaching a whole concept that was never in the bible in the first place.
     
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  7. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    Joseph Smith changed the book of Genesis and SLC Mormons called his Bible corruption a translation which it isn't.

    Joseph Smith's version:

    Gen 7:9 And the people of Cainan shall divide themselves in the land; and the land shall be barren and unfruitful, and none other people shall dwell there but the people of Cainan; for behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever.

    Gen 7:10 And there was a blackness came upon all the children of Cainan, that they were despised among all people.

    Gen 7:11 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me, Look. And I looked, and I beheld the land of Sharon, and the land of Enoch, and the land of Omner, and the land of Heni, and the land of Shem, and the land of Haner, and the land of Hanannihah, and all the inhabitants thereof.

    Gen 7:12 And the Lord said unto me, Go forth to this people and say unto them, Repent, lest I come out and smite them with a curse and they die.

    Gen 7:13 And he gave unto me a commandment that I should baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, who is full of grace and truth, and the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and the Son.

    Gen 7:14 And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Cainan, to repent.
    Genesis

    Pearl of Great Price, Moses 7
    8 For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.

    9 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: Look; and I looked, and I beheld the land of Sharon, and the land of Enoch, and the land of Omner, and the land of Heni, and the land of Shem, and the land of Haner, and the land of Hanannihah, and all the inhabitants thereof;

    10 And the Lord said unto me: Go to this people, and say unto them—Repent, lest I come out and smite them with a curse, and they die.

    11 And he gave unto me a commandment that I should baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, which is full of grace and truth, and of the Holy Ghost, which beareth record of the Father and the Son.

    12 And it came to pass that Enoch continued to call upon all the people, save it were the people of Canaan, to repent;
    Moses 7


    Genesis 7:9-14 KJV
    9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

    10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.

    11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

    12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

    13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

    14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
     
  8. frienden thalord

    frienden thalord Well-Known Member

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    Dear sister , joseph smiths translation IS a translation , just a false one and let us file
    it in the file called NEVAHBELIEVEIT.
     
  9. Old Lady

    Old Lady ...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me Supporter

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    He didn't translate it. It was already in the English language. It was called the Inspired Version by the publisher.

    The Inspired Version - by Israel A. Smith
     
  10. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Right. It is not a translation. JS rewrote it. As to the inspiration, it obviously did not come from God.
     
  11. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

    +11,198
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    It is recorded in various Armenian histories that when St. Mesrob (d. 440), the saint who is credited with the invention of the Armenian alphabet c. 405 which enabled his people to translate the scriptures and their liturgy (up until that time prayed in Syriac) into their national language, set about to create the alphabet, he traveled to the other nations and compared their scripts so as to determine what his should be like (this is apparently why written Armenian bears some resemblance to Ethiopic in the look of some of the letters). And when it came time to translate the scriptures into Armenian after a brief attempt by Catholicos Sahak (Isaac) in c. 411 to do so from the Syriac, the Armenians traveled from Armenia as far as Constantinople, collecting reliable manuscripts in Greek from Constantinople, and from Egypt, and from the Syrian lands, etc. The result of this more wide-ranging attempt to translate the scriptures was the translation still in use by the Armenian Apostolic Church, which was completed around 434.

    That's how you actually do a Bible translation: not from one manuscript or version alone, but by comparison of the most reliable texts you have from a wide range of sources and backgrounds, so as to eliminate or lessen the impact of the idiosyncrasies you would find in any one copy, and find the proper way to render what you're looking at according to the meaning that is proven to be most in keeping with the texts themselves, again by comparative method. I am not aware of any evidence that Joseph Smith approached things in this way, or had any access to any form of the Bible texts other than the KJV as it would have been available to him as the standard English-language Bible of his day. He certainly wasn't working with ancient Greek, Syriac, and Coptic versions, as the Armenians did in the time of St. Mesrob, Catholicos Sahak, John of Egheghiatz, Joseph of Baghin, and other early Armenian translators were.

    Mormons may call it "inspired" if they wish, but it's pretty clear to anyone who studies even briefly the history of how we got the Bible in _____ (whatever language/s) that what JS did does not qualify as a translation of any kind. An inventive re-imagining, perhaps; a hatchet job, even more perhaps. But not a translation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017
  12. fatboys

    fatboys Senior Veteran

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    Why are there so many different translations of he bible? What is the purpose for them even to attempt it?
     
  13. fatboys

    fatboys Senior Veteran

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    You just proved our point when you stated that the only way to get an accurate translation is to seek consistancies from other sources instead of one so there were inconsistencies of Gods word We have all along stated that the scriptures are true as far as they are translated correctly. Who would be the best source to bring consistancy? A man or a prophet of God
     
  14. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Do you know how to read Greek or Hebrew?
     
  15. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    The best source is the original language. Do you know Greek or Hebrew? Joseph Smith showed his inability to translate correctly and just made things up in his JST. That only shows he cannot be trusted and is not a prophet of God. And yet you still follow his brand of religion...
     
  16. fatboys

    fatboys Senior Veteran

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    Answer the question why do we have so many trasnslations od the Bible?
     
  17. fatboys

    fatboys Senior Veteran

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    How much of the Bible do we have that is original plus original language?
     
  18. dzheremi

    dzheremi Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

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    Is that your point? There are variations from one manuscript to another or from one language to another, therefore we'd all better trust a man who didn't deal with any manuscripts, and couldn't read, speak, or understand any other languages? That's a pretty lousy point. Christian writers of antiquity already showed much more facility with the ancient versions as to produce things like the hexapla (produced by Origen sometime before the 240s), which gathered together six different versions of the OT that were extant at that time. Joseph Smith just took the KJV and added some of his own ideas to it, mangling it in the attempt to harmonize everything.

    I fail to see how this proves anything other than the fact that your false prophet didn't know what he was doing. (Or even worse that he did.)

    No one has any reason to doubt the transmission of the scriptures but the self-interested like Mormons, Muslims, and others with their own latter-day anti-God messengers. The modern method of higher textual criticism, for whatever its worth, generally deals with points of arcana related to various hypothetical sources (e.g., Q) and relation of different manuscripts and traditions to one another. It is folly to think of this in terms of "See, the scriptures are corrupted unless they're translated by our guy", as though any differences that their might be between the Latin Vulgate and the Sahidic or the Armenian and the Greek or whatever rise to the level of casting serious doubt on the text itself. We know that it doesn't because we have people who can read and compare the different versions (scholars who specialize in the Biblical text), and point out the differences and to what degree they indicate a deviation from the assumed source text.

    I suppose if you did not have that, it would be much easier to make and believe much more fantastic claims about the Bible being incorrectly translated to the point of being essentially useless until your guy comes around to correct it, despite the fact that his own source text (KJV) didn't exist until almost 1200 years after the established translation in question (434 vs. 1611). And that is but one translation -- the Latin, the Syriac, and the Coptic were all completed earlier than the Armenian, according to Armenian sources themselves (see, e.g., Bp. Sion Manoogian "The Armenian Church and her Teachings", p. 8), and hence obviously relied on even earlier manuscripts and traditions.

    Again, your point is pretty lousy, seeing as how the historical record itself contradicts it. It really only works as you would have it if you assume that everyone is working from the autographs (and hence there should be no variations at all, since we can all just go back to the originals written by the hands of the apostles themsleves), but since I don't know of any Christian who seriously thinks that, that's not even an argument you can make in this context. At least not if you want to actually argue within the bounds of the thread, which is about how ridiculous it is for Mormons to think of Joseph Smith as correcting the scriptures by producing something that is really just a ruined copy of the KJV, not based on anything else.

    Meanwhile, in the real world, actual Christians whose churches and translations of the scriptures have existed for over a millennia before the KJV did have shown how it actually happened: their forefathers specifically sought out the scriptures from diverse sources and used these to work out just how the scriptures should be translated into their own language. This is essentially how it is that scholars find so-called "errors" in transmission today, and yet you would like to pretend as though this is some sort of bombshell that destroys the Christian faith in the Bible's reliability (for some reason...), rather than evidence that things have been handled properly.

    That, like belief in Joseph Smith and his "correction" of the Bible, is just ahistorical foolishness.
     
  19. fatboys

    fatboys Senior Veteran

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    If you have to go to other sources to see what is consistent then there is doubt as to what is the original source
     
  20. BigDaddy4

    BigDaddy4 Movin' on...

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    Anyone who knows Greek and/or Hebrew can translate the ancient texts as they wish. Heck, you don't even need to know the languages to attempt it (i.e. Joseph Smith). But whatever the translation result is can be checked against the original languages for intent and context. Something JS did not do.

    Just what is your beef exactly?
     
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