MORE COERCION

[Hammster]

That's already settled law. Posting any religious matter aside from temporary curricula needs, is unconstitutional.

Have you seen the Supreme Court building?

 

[The Barbarian]

Have you seen the Supreme Court building?

Yep. The fact that America in the past has not lived up to the Constitution is not license to violate it in the future. Like "in God we trust" on our currency, the courts have found that it is so debased in meaning that it no longer has any meaningful message to people, and thus is at worst a de minimus violation.

Which is precisely what Madison noted in his critique of establishment:

Because the Bill implies either that the Civil Magistrate is a competent Judge of Religious Truth; or that he may employ Religion as an engine of Civil policy.8 The first is an arrogant pretension falsified by the contradictory opinions of Rulers in all ages, and throughout the world: the second an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation...During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

 

[East of Eden]

You guys appear to simply assume that any restriction on individual freedom is "evil" and "coercive". Do you think that the restriction against driving while drunk "evil and coercive"?

I live in Quebec. Our hospitals are overwhelmed. And, yes, the unvaccinated are a big reason for this - by their irresponsible and selfish actions, they are jeopardizing the health of thousands, not least because they divert resources that are needed to care for people with other health problems (cancer, heart disease, etc.).

Your "freedom" is not without limits - when your behaviour imperils others, the state has a very legitimate right to reign that freedom in.

That is what is going on here - pressure is being brought to bear on those whose reckless behaviour is hurting a lot of people.

As Paul writes: "....in humility consider others as more important than yourselves".

You're ignoring the many vaccine injuries that have happened, my daughter included. Whatever happened to my body, my choice?

IMHO the vaccinated are shedding the virus, spreading it.

 

[East of Eden]

Yep. The fact that America in the past has not lived up to the Constitution is not license to violate it in the future.

So you're saying the founders violated their own intentions? The same men who wrote the First Amendment established a national day of prayer the very next day.

Like "in God we trust" on our currency, the courts have found that it is so debased in meaning that it no longer has any meaningful message to people, and thus is at worst a de minimus violation.

Which is precisely what Madison noted in his critique of establishment:

Because the Bill implies either that the Civil Magistrate is a competent Judge of Religious Truth; or that he may employ Religion as an engine of Civil policy.8 The first is an arrogant pretension falsified by the contradictory opinions of Rulers in all ages, and throughout the world: the second an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation...During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.

Who is arguing for an established church in the US? Justice Joseph Story, appointed by the same Madison you mention, said the intention of the founders was to foster Christianity, and not to level all religions, to the extent it did not violate the conscience of others.

We have separation of church and state, not separation of faith and state.

 

[East of Eden]

Have you seen the Supreme Court building?

Yes, I believe there are six depictions of Moses the Lawgiver.

 

[East of Eden]

Sorry, but it’s okay for churches and/or Christians to influence the government.

Dr. ML King certainly did.

 

[East of Eden]

They expected lawmakers and government officials to be selected on their standard of ethics, whether those ethics were derived from religion or elsewhere, and they did not presume religion was the only source of ethics.

They did not approve of atheists running for public office.

Early America had a lot less religiosity in its first century than in its second. Most of America's national religiosity was gained in two spikes, one with the Abolitionist Movement in the mid 1800s that lasted until the early 20th century--the ideological battle against slavery being the impetus of that spike--then again during the Cold War, with the ideological battle against the USSR being the impetus of that spike.

The Abolitionist Movement was partly the result of the Great Awakening, Harriot Beecher Stowe said that movement was mainly made up of Christians, and that the pro-slavery crowd was not. It was certainly true in England where Wilberforce and other evangelicals ended the slave trade, over the objections of those such as Lord Melbourne, who complained that it was a sad state of affairs when people's religious beliefs are allowed to influence government policy.

BTW, the Great Awakening happened not long after Jefferson predicted the rise of Unitarianism and the decline of evangelicalism.

 

[East of Eden]

The First Amendment, without reservation, prohibits any establishment of religion at all, as well as prohibiting any government restraint on religion.

Which is why Obama's forcing Catholic nuns to deal in abortificants violated that principle.

The 1A only applied to Congress, a number of states had state churches until the 1820s.

 

[East of Eden]

That's kind of a shock, considering that doctors and other OR personnel are required to wear them to protect surgical patients.

According to my OR nurse wife, those masks are intended to stop bacteria, virus are MUCH smaller. It is like trying to stop mosquitos with a chain link fence.

Funny that Florida, that had few such restrictions and shutdowns, had a lower death rate than many restrictive states such as NM.

 

[East of Eden]

In the other thread, OP wanted to drive LGBTQ+ people into the closet because their personal feelings were hurt by the prospect of their kids being exposed to ""transgenderism"".

Coercian in that case if forcing kids to be exposed to such things at a very young age, when many of those kids and their parents who pay for those schools consider the gay agenda and trans to be an immoral abomination and mental illness.

 

[East of Eden]

I do believe it. But scripture must be searched and studied to see it. There’s no one verse or passage that explains the Trinity.

It can be found as early as Genesis, where God said 'Let US make man in OUR image.'

 

[expos4ever]

You're ignoring the many vaccine injuries that have happened, my daughter included. Whatever happened to my body, my choice?

I am not really ignoring this. Individual cases notwithstanding, the benefits of the vaccine significantly outweigh the risks.

Now about "my body my choice", I politely suggest this slogan does not apply here. Hospitals will be overwhelmed if people do not get vaccinated. So "your choice" to not get vaccinated puts many other people at serious risk.

IMHO the vaccinated are shedding the virus, spreading it.

Even if this is true, it is not the point. The main concern is the overwhelming of the hospitals. People getting infected is the not the present concern, it is people needing to go to the hospital.

 

[The Barbarian]

According to my OR nurse wife, those masks are intended to stop bacteria, virus are MUCH smaller.

Your wife lacks a degree in microbiology, so she probably doesn't realize how these organisms are stopped by masks. The masks were intended to stop microorganisms. This was the case before anyone knew much about them. Only later did we realize why masks work.

It is like trying to stop mosquitos with a chain link fence.

That's a common misconception. It's not like trapping fish in a net. The microorganisms that enter the mask adhere to fibers if they contact them. This happens by electrostatic attraction, Van der Waals forces, and other means. This is why non-woven material is more effective than woven material. It's also why masks are much better at protecting people around the wearer, than they are at protecting the wearer.

BTW, some bacteria are smaller than some viruses. It's not the way your wife assumed it is.

Funny that Florida, that had few such restrictions and shutdowns, had a lower death rate than many restrictive states such as NM.

Since many municipalities and school districts in Florida told Gov. Ron to stuff it, and imposed mask mandates on their own, the results were affected by those mandates. However, it wasn't enough to save many Floridians; even with Florida's decision to count only some of the deaths from COVID-19, Florida's death rate is almost as high as that of New Mexico, which counted every single death from COVID-19 in the state.
United States COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer

Florida reported a death rate around 3400 while NM reported about 3500. But...

With the new report, which combines COVID-19 cases and deaths with vaccination numbers, the state is no longer reporting any data related to non-residents who tested positive or died of the virus while in the Sunshine State.

The DOH and the state Agency for Health Care Administration are no longer releasing COVID-19 information regarding current patients hospitalized across the state with the virus.
Florida eliminates some COVID-19 data as state averages 1,700+ new cases per day

He's rigging the numbers to make it look better. But people are on to him.

 

[The Barbarian]

The 1A only applied to Congress, a number of states had state churches until the 1820s.

Amendment XIV put an end to states violating religious rights. After that, even state governments had to respect human rights.

And, of course Obama didn't do what they told you he did. Catholic Hospitals, as long as they didn't take federal money, were not required to provide reproductive services to anyone. If they were being paid by the government, then they have to provide what the laws and funding are for.

With government hand-outs, comes government say in how the hand-outs are spent. That's how it works.

 

[The Barbarian]

It can be found as early as Genesis, where God said 'Let US make man in OUR image.'

Or merely the Hebrew reference to God as "Elohim", a plural. But that could have been the Holy Duality, or the Holy Committee, or any grouping. But the Trinity is explicitly mentioned in many places by naming the three persons who comprise one God.

 

[RDKirk]

They did not approve of atheists running for public office.

Somebody told you wrong.

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." -- United States Constitution Article VI, Clause 3

 

[The Barbarian]

So you're saying the founders violated their own intentions?

Some founders disagreed withe the majority.

The same men who wrote the First Amendment established a national day of prayer the very next day.

Franklin (PA) then suggested in view of the small progress made and the different sentiments, that the Convention should be opened each day with prayer - as the Congress had been. Sherman seconded. Hamilton (NY) and others opposed the motion because the practice might rouse fears in the community. Williamson (NC) remarked that the Convention had no money to hire a chaplain. Randolph (VA) proposed a fourth of July sermon instead; Franklin seconded. The Convention then managed to adjourn without voting on the motion.
June 28, 1787: Franklin's Proposal for Prayer (U.S. National Park Service)

Who is arguing for an established church in the US? Justice Joseph Story, appointed by the same Madison you mention, said the intention of the founders was to foster Christianity, and not to level all religions, to the extent it did not violate the conscience of others.

Yes, he disagreed with the founders.

A mature Jefferson believed that any official call to prayer was unconstitutional and a violation of the separation of church and state. When President Jefferson was heavily criticized for refusing to issue a prayer proclamation during a national crisis (as both of his predecessors had done), he explained that his refusal

results … from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercise, of religion, … But it is only proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe a day of fasting & prayer…. It must be meant that this recommendation is to carry some authority, and to be sanctioned by some penalty on those who disregard it; not indeed of fine and imprisonment, but of some degree of proscription perhaps in public opinion…. I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct it’s exercises, it’s discipline, or it’s doctrine….
https://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/thomas-jefferson-and-religious-freedom

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
Thomas Jefferson on the Virginia Statutes of Religious Freedom on which the First Amendment was based by James Madison

We have separation of church and state, not separation of faith and state.

The founders thought religion was a good thing. As you see, they merely wanted government and religion kept strictly separate. Hence the First Amendment.

 

[The Barbarian]

You're ignoring the many vaccine injuries that have happened, my daughter included. Whatever happened to my body, my choice?

Over a hundred years ago, the Supreme Court ruled that mandatory vaccinations were Constitutional.

IMHO the vaccinated are shedding the virus, spreading it.

It's possible for a vaccinated person to be infected. But it's much less likely than for an unvaccinated person and the unvaccinated tend to shed more virus.

 

[ThisIsMe123]

I am not really ignoring this. Individual cases notwithstanding, the benefits of the vaccine significantly outweigh the risks.

Now about "my body my choice", I politely suggest this slogan does not apply here. Hospitals will be overwhelmed if people do not get vaccinated. So "your choice" to not get vaccinated puts many other people at serious risk.

IMHO the vaccinated are shedding the virus, spreading it.

Even if this is true, it is not the point. The main concern is the overwhelming of the hospitals. People getting infected is the not the present concern, it is people needing to go to the hospital.

Actually, it's the other way around...I'll just leave this here...

Unvaccinated people increase risk of COVID-19 infection among vaccinated: study - National | Globalnews.ca

 

[East of Eden]

Individual cases notwithstanding, the benefits of the vaccine significantly outweigh the risks.

I'm sure you believe that, but that decision needs to be left to individuals.