More and More lazy stay at home wives

[akmom]

So many good points in the last few posts.

Historically, except for the upper classes, women have always worked. They worked in factories (reference the Triangle Factory fire), they worked on the farm, they did not stay home, clean house and raise children. It wasn't until after WW2 that women had the ability to be SAHMs. Wages went up, people were able to get mortgages to buy homes, loans to buy cars and that afforded people a more middle class lifestyle with only one parent working. Things aren't like that anymore. Wages have actually decreased (in buying power) over the last 10+ years. A "starter" home in many areas costs upwards of $150,000. Can't buy a house on one income of maybe 35K/year. It just doesn't work that way.

I have to second this. Domestic responsibilities aren't what they used to be. It is unfulfilling! If I was milking my own cows, growing my own grain, making my own clothes, using a washboard and line-drying... then I would not need or want a job.

But as opposed to the man, the woman's primary responsibility is as a helpmeet to her husband, and caregiver(a nurturer especially when the children are small) to her children and keeper of the home. I already know where all you stand on this - you think its all supposed to be even,but I and many other Conservative traditionalist Christians disagree.

To be honest, that really only describes a nuclear family. Yours is a blended family, which is inherently different. And your children are NOT young, and do not require the kind of round-the-clock nurture you describe. Not even at the beginning of your marriage, when all but one was school-age (and the next year, all of them school-age). Why would she need to be home? Husband and stepchildren are all at work or school. I just don't even know what that role would look like in a blended, older family. Your ideal is based on a young nuclear family. Which leads me to...

I know it is my fault, I should not have believed her even though she pledged to honor what I believed was God's design for marriage and the family.

Does she feel she has fallen short? Perhaps her understanding of what that meant is exactly what she has been doing. I mean, she can't really stay home and nurture your children, because they're older and they already have a mom. And she did do a share of the housework when she was able-bodied... is that not a helpmeet?

I would never tell my Sons that they should marry an egalitarian woman, because of the churches they attended, and how they were raised it would never work for them. I agree - egalitarians should marry egalitarians, and traditionals should marry traditionals. The issue is I have made the mistake but I have to live with it.

Not necessarily. My traditional husband married a traditional wife, and it just didn't work out. I always thought I'd do what my mom did, but neither me nor my husband was happy with the arrangement. Turns out my mom never liked it either; she just suffered through it because it's what my dad thought he wanted. So... I don't think it's necessarily preventable, or something you can instruct your sons to avoid, lol. You can commit to staying home and nurturing your children when they are young, but eventually people are going to move on and pursue their own passions (which might not be perpetual homemaking), or else become bitter and defeated. You can't predict everything, that is why marriage is such an exercise in compromise - no matter how compatible you thought you'd be! (And I don't think you'd find any couple who disagrees with that.)

 

[akmom]

I've had neighbors that literally locked the front door after they'd sent their children out to ride bikes so they can clean house. Once those homes are clean as a whistle......there's a lot of protection going on to keep it that way (at the expense of others trying to live there). To me.....that's putting a clean home as a priority.....not putting the people (the family) as priority. See what I mean?

That's me! I try to quarantine the kids to one room of the house so I can keep up. Then I peek in and it looks like a tornado swept through. So they trickle out into the "clean" house and gradually destroy it.

I firmly believe that life is to be lived! The kids won't remember the hours I spent scrubbing bathrooms, but they will remember the time I spent with them. My big kids' favorite memory is when we moved into one house and I hung up the newsprint on the walls and let them draw on the newsprint paper. They don't remember mom cleaning anything...

This is true, but kids can't play in clutter either. It does take a lot of work to maintain a clear, organized area for them to play and do projects with Mom. All the "scrubbing" is a prerequisite to the memorable times.

 

[musingsofacac]

Removed by OP.

 

[ValleyGal]

That is why my father, and I following his example have worked 1 1/2 jobs at times(and I do now) to make sure we are providing for our family.

Musing, there are some things I agree with you on in your post, and other things I disagree on pertaining to your interpretation of scripture and taking it all out of context. However, I'm aware you are working on your stuff, so I'm going to leave all of it alone except this comment I quoted above. Here's the thing. I am a product of this type of marriage. Dad was never there. When I was in Brownies as a child, my dad would not take me to the father/daughter dinner, but my grade 5 teacher cared enough to show up at my house with a corsage and escort me instead. Do you have any idea how harmful that was to a little girl? My dad cared more about his work than he did about me. He cared more about preserving his position as leader of the family and provider of the family than he cared about me. This was very very damaging to a little girl who wanted nothing but to relate to her father. I was "allowed" to watch football with him as long as I did not speak while the game was on...and I spent many silent hours there watching a game I did not understand in an attempt to get him to notice me.

For your children's sake, please re-think your priorities. Your children do not need your money so much as they need you. Don't sacrifice your time with them because you believe your primary responsibility is to lead and provide for them. I'd have traded steak dinners for hot dogs any day if only my dad would spend 15 minutes a day showing me that he cared enough about my life to acknowledge that I was even there. I'm sorry, but your priority is your family....not the quality of the food they eat or the size of house you provide. All of us women here are trying to tell you that your relationship with them matters far more than the hours you work or how clean your house is....and changing this mindset will also take a lot of your own self-induced stress off your shoulders as well. It will improve the lives of those around you, and you will feel a whole lot better about having kids who connect with you when they are adults. Your current mindset is wounding your children.

 

[musingsofacac]

Removed by OP.

 

[musingsofacac]

Removed by OP.

 

[akmom]

I spent many silent hours there watching a game I did not understand in an attempt to get him to notice me.

That is sad. I watched Star Trek for the same reason! However, my dad did spend time with us, just not as much as I wanted. He worked long hours, still does.

Yes Mom's have worked outside the home - meaning in the fields in their back yard with their children in yelling distance. If they had infants these
children were on their backs.

Yeah, those verses are easy to apply to farm life. But even farm work has changed; we don't have the sustainable family farms any more, people don't bring their kids to industrial farms, and most people of child-bearing age don't even own land. Women can't bring their children to work any more, period. Get over it.

Even now you're trying to get the government to pay your wife to be a stay-at-home mom (through disability pay). That's not exactly applying the scriptures to modern life either. And the only reason you can be there for your kids and work 60 hours/week is because you are a part-time dad due to divorce (not saying it's your fault here, just the reality).

 

[mkgal1]

That's me! I try to quarantine the kids to one room of the house so I can keep up. Then I peek in and it looks like a tornado swept through. So they trickle out into the "clean" house and gradually destroy it.



This is true, but kids can't play in clutter either. It does take a lot of work to maintain a clear, organized area for them to play and do projects with Mom. All the "scrubbing" is a prerequisite to the memorable times.

Eek. I'm sorry, I hope my post didn't offend you. To be honest, though.....what you're describing as what you do is different than what my neighbor did. She was like what others have experienced---a clean house being above the needs of the family. I'm sure you don't neglect your children in the process of cleaning and maintaining your home. To me.....you're describing balance. That's what's important (IMO).

 

[musingsofacac]

Removed by OP.

 

[ValleyGal]

Musing, I did not mean to imply that you are neglecting your children. So let me ask you....by working as much as you do and attending your children's activities as much as you do, are you neglecting your wife? I'm just asking...not implying.

As for the Proverbs 31 woman, she had a household of servants and people working for her in the fields. I'm not so sure it was she who literally went out and planted; rather, I believe she was an entrepreneur who hired a lot of staff both for work and at home. She was a manager. A boss. Human Resources. She likely made clothes and did some of the planting, and did other hands-on work; however, I believe she was more a manager who delegated those tasks out than anything else.

That said, the woman in Proverbs 31 is a wife of noble character. It is about her character, not about her roles and responsibilities and tasks. It had to do with character. She is also "ideal" and real women are not "ideal." Iow, we can't do it all. So we also pick and choose what to do and what to delegate. Personally, my ideal is to work 8 hours a day outside the home, and delegate to Molly Maid twice a month - and child care resources when my son was little. There was a time when this was the case, and I had enough time to then donate to my church, spend quality time with my child and my friends, and stay fit by running and dancing. It seems to me that is more about what the Proverbs 31 woman is about. More than that, though...she is a woman of integrity, ambition, organization, motivation, provision, community participant.

 

[akmom]

There is doing things out of necessity(like with disabled spouses and single mothers) and then there is doing things just because we want to do things our way, instead of how the Bible lays things out.

Uh... actually able-bodied, married mothers aren't allowed to bring their kids to work either. I'd love to bring my oldest daughter to work (she could even help), but those pesky workplace laws say no.

Eek. I'm sorry, I hope my post didn't offend you.

Not at all. Unfortunately, it's less of a balancing act, and more like alternated chaos. When I focus on the house, my kids really don't get a lot of interaction with me. On days I focus on my kids, almost none of the housework gets done. And on days I work, we all come home to a clean house, because the kids weren't there to trash it. I suppose it comes down to teaching the kids to help and pick up after themselves, but that requires constant oversight at their young ages (which tempts me to speed things up and just do it myself, but then they don't learn). It's a Catch-22; maybe they'll outgrow it? I've never been organized at housework and unfortunately it does reduce our quality of life. However, we've gotten *better* over the years!

 

[musingsofacac]

Removed by OP.

 

[HannahT]

Actually, mothers have worked in all kinds of areas if you check history. Not just on the land, or around the house.

When we speak of biblical times? You normally had an elderly person - or a couple of them - watch the children from the area where the adults (Yes, including women) could go work doing all kinds of things. Once the children got to a certain age? They went with their parents.

If they didn't have the elderly to watch them? Sure, they went with...and learned to work with their parents at a young age. Way younger than people today would even think about. Other times they were left to their own devices. You had no choice. You starved if you didn't.

If work was at home? The whole family did it. That included the children.

It was only the rich that had things differently. Most common day folk were all in the same boat.

If you check around the world? In alot of places that still happens. I mean think Haiti here. They have both parents searching for food - or some way to exist - and they have no one to watch their children. Sad things happen to those kids as well. They do what they can to survive.

We are lucky we have to what we have. People seem to forget most people live hand to mouth - and have in history as well.

So this idea of someone stays home to do laundry and watch the children because that is the 'biblical way'? Since the year nineteen hundred and what? lol Its also the western way of viewing things. Talk your missionaries at your church!

Sadly, we have VERY narrow view of 'keeper of the home' today. Most people have no clue what that meant back in the day. They just apply what they know, and go on from there.

 

[ProudMomxmany]

Muse, this is from your original post:
"I said in that thread I believe we have an equally bad problem today with the problem of lazy house wives. As someone who believes in traditional marriage I have no problem at all with stay at home moms, in fact I think its preferable if the couple agrees to it and its is economically viable."

Now you've changed your tune to specifically your wife and a rant against working moms. You cannot dictate what others do. You also can't dictate what your sons will do when they marry.

This is why I am having serious issues with your arguments, scriptural and otherwise. You have no grasp of ancient history or even recent history and family dynamics during that time. AND...if a woman was working in the fields, she worked just as hard as the other field hands. She was NOT permitted to show up late so she could cook breakfast. Don't know where you got that idea but I can tell you it's incorrect. Often, there was a granny or other older, retired/disabled adult who would watch the children while mom worked. That's done a lot today too.

Please, get a grasp on the historical context of the scriptures and the culture of those times before you pontificate.

Thank You.

 

[ValleyGal]

On the Proverbs 31 front, it is more than just her character. It is clear that her character the care of her home - are directly interrelated. Whether she had helpers or not - it actually says she made meat for her hand maidens.

It talks about her doing these various tasks, not someone else.

She made breakfast for her family and her staff. Like I said, I'm sure she did some hands-on with things, just like most company owners. I'm sure Henry Ford actually got his hands dirty making a few cars. But later, no one can accuse him of not making cars when he directed his whole staff to do it. He was a car-builder, even when he himself was not building the cars himself. Same with the Proverbs 31 woman. She might have started out with doing some hands-on stuff, but she eventually hired and managed staff - and this staff included household staff to manage her home as well as business staff to work her fields and sell her garments. After all, there is no one in the world who is capable of doing all she is said to do unless she delegated. It even says that she delegated to her servants in verse 15, and she only "watched over the affairs" of her household in verse 27.

Now, for a minute let's talk about Deborah. She was a Judge over Israel. I honestly doubt her children went into war with her when her military chief was too chicken to go himself. I highly doubt that her children went to work with her every day when she did her judging duties. And even if they did, that might have been more acceptable back then. Today we have laws that protect our children so they do not attend their parent's workplace, and we have to put them into child care. Who looked after Deborah's children? We already know that the woman in Proverbs 31 hired household servants to care for hers....

However, I think too many here are getting sucked into trying to change your views on your worldview. I don't agree with it and I don't like it. I think it's demeaning to women and I actually feel for your wife. However, that does not change the fact that if you believe you should be the leader and your wife should stay home, then so be it. You got what you wanted...your wife is now unable to return to her nursing job. She stays home and I'm sure she's not happy about it. However, you want to be the leader in your home. That means that you need to be responsible for your wife's attitude, her motivation, the things she does and does not do, her initiative, etc....especially while she is unable to do a lot of the things she used to be able to do. After all, that is what "leaders" (as defined by boss, manager, supervisor, decision-maker, CEO, etc) do; they are responsible for those under their employ, whether the quality of their work is acceptable or not, whether it even gets done or not, the morale of the home, and everything that goes on there....the buck stops with them, not on the way up to them. So the buck stops with you. By placing yourself in the position you do, you are making yourself responsible for her, and the buck stops with you.

Imo, it's a needless responsibility, but you want it, so you've got it. There is a lot resting on how you handle it now.

 

[mkgal1]

Are there some times I have had to work that I feel like I might not have been there for my wife? Yes that does happen occasionally. But either I catch it on my own and take her out for some special me and her time, or she will catch it and let me know, I apologize and get back on track.

There are plenty of times I have had to send my boss an email that I need to stop working that evening because I just need to spend time with my wife, especially when I can see she may be having a hard time. At other times I have wanted to take her out and she does not want to go. She has broken far more dates than me in the last year, simply because she would rather stay home on the couch.

She admits this is a problem.

Is it really giving her "me and her time" when it's an activity she's not really desiring? These "one-size-fits most" answers for life's problems seem to get loads of people in trouble (ie...."when your wife is feeling neglected....buy her some flowers or take her out on a date". It takes a lot more effort than that.....it may even involve some feelings (those aren't just for women, BTW). Like I said earlier.....provision is more than a paycheck....more than a husband working.

We (all humans) have more needs than the material needs (and going through the motions).

 

[musingsofacac]

Removed by OP.

 

[musingsofacac]

Removed by OP.

 

[Romanseight2005]

ValleyGal,

Are there some times I have had to work that I feel like I might not have been there for my wife? Yes that does happen occasionally. But either I catch it on my own and take her out for some special me and her time, or she will catch it and let me know, I apologize and get back on track.

There are plenty of times I have had to send my boss an email that I need to stop working that evening because I just need to spend time with my wife, especially when I can see she may be having a hard time. At other times I have wanted to take her out and she does not want to go. She has broken far more dates than me in the last year, simply because she would rather stay home on the couch.

She admits this is a problem.

As far as a daily schedule goes, even though I work 12 hours a day Monday through Thursday, its not consecutive hours. I work my 8 hours for my full time job for my full time job. I stop during the day for lunch and watch a half hour of tv with her and we talk.
I stop around 6 my day job, and make dinner and then spend some time with her. Then I go back to work around 8 and work till midnight then we go to bed. Sometimes I have to work later(like till 2AM and she will just go to bed and join her later).

We are going this weekend to comedy club with her sister and her sister's boyfriend. We are going to concert next month. Just her and I are going to the Grand Canyon the last week of February for a week.

I say all that to say we do spend time together, and we do talk. We just avoid certain subjects that have caused conflict in the past(most of the time anyway) Really besides her regular critical perfectionist attitude, we get along fine probably 70 percent of the time. Things get testy when we come into areas we disagree with the kids(whether it is what we teach them or just discipline issues). Things also erupt when my resentment comes out over various issues, or when I feel taken for granted. But overall - I don't think I am neglecting her.

So as I said in previous posts, when I leave her to God(the things I think she is not doing she should be, or the neglect of our marriage, or other issues not mentioned here) and I just concentrate on doing my part and myself we get a long great. So just like she has a very critical and selfish side, and then a kind and gentler and funner side, so to goes our relationship.


On the Proverbs 31 front, it is more than just her character. It is clear that her character the care of her home - are directly interrelated. Whether she had helpers or not - it actually says she made meat for her hand maidens.

It talks about her doing these various tasks, not someone else.

I totally realize that for a Christian woman Proverbs 31 can be very intimidating. The Bible sets goals for us that none of us reach perfectly.

Believe me my responsibilities as a husband and father can sometimes be overwhelming as well. Taking care of a disabled spouse(especially one that be cranky and critical at times) can be overwhelming. But I am called to do it. I can only do it in God's strength, not my own. When I try to do it my strength, is when I start getting cranky myself.

To be honest, I think Proverbs 31 is really about the body of Christ as a whole. I do think that a wife can glean much from it, as well, but it is talking about the bride of Christ, as in the church. Speaking of Proverbs, what do you think of this?

Proverbs 5:15-6:1

15 Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.

16 Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets.

17 Let them be only thine own, and not strangers' with thee.

18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.

20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger?

21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings.

22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.

23 He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray.


Proverbs 6
KJV

 

[akmom]

As far as Deborah goes I would point out that the Bible never says if she had children or how old they were. It only says she was "the wife of Lapidoth". As far as we know she could have been childless, it's an unknown. So from my traditional view point, there is nothing conflicting here.

So is your wife.