Morally speaking, are Atheists and Muslims immoral?

[ObamaChristian]

This is addressed to Christians only, because obviously Atheists and Muslims wouldn't think of themselves as immoral.

So Christians, do you think Atheists and Muslims are categorically immoral? Meaning they are immoral by their belief alone?

Vote: I want to know your opinion.

ALSO; if you think they are immoral, what is the solution for atheists and muslims?

 

[durangodawood]

Morality is a measure of behavior, not belief.

So I dont see how religious labels are necessarily an indicator.

 

[Strathos]

They're not categorically immoral simply for having those beliefs. Neither are all Christians categorically moral.

 

[WirSindBettler]

The problem is not whether or not they're moral. Anybody can be moral. The problem is whether or not they believe in Christ. That's one of the problems with enforcing a Christian moral code on everyone: they begin to hate Christianity, and by extension, deny Christ.

Then you just have a bunch of moral people going to hell.

 

[Skavau]

The problem is not whether or not they're moral. Anybody can be moral. The problem is whether or not they believe in Christ. That's one of the problems with enforcing a Christian moral code on everyone: they begin to hate Christianity, and by extension, deny Christ.

Then you just have a bunch of moral people going to hell.

Charming.

People then wonder why we're not keen.

 

[Strathos]

Charming.

People then wonder why we're not keen.

It really depends on what standards of morality you are going by actually.

 

[WirSindBettler]

Charming.

People then wonder why we're not keen.

The problem is many people don't understand Christianity. Christianity explicitly states that no one can get to heaven on works.

"As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one." Romans 3:10

We all fail. We all screw up. To think that Christians believe that moral people go to heaven is to misunderstand Christianity. That's the point. No one is moral. No one can go to heaven.

You and I are basically no different. We're both fallen, wretched sinners. The only difference is whether or not you have the Grace of Christ. For we're saved by Grace through Faith alone.

We strive to be moral because we have been redeemed by Christ, but it is not what saves us.

I'm not trying to attack you as an individual. I'm just trying to say that teaching morality as the end all be all in Christianity is like teaching the Law without the Gospel. If you don't have Christ you can't be saved. Period. End of discussion.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" John 14:6

 

[Verv]

I couldn't vote because atheist & Muslim is not comparable.

An adult atheist who rejected God is immoral by belief alone.

A Muslim is never immoral by belief alone. Perhaps wrong, but not immoral.

Something like that.

They can't be in the same category.

 

[Skavau]

The problem is many people don't understand Christianity. Christianity explicitly states that no one can get to heaven on works.

No, I understand this belief. I just find it morally repugnant.

We all fail. We all screw up. To think that Christians believe that moral people go to heaven is to misunderstand Christianity. That's the point. No one is moral. No one can go to heaven.

I'm not sure that making this clarification changes things one iota. You simply assert that all people as a consequence of not being perfect are by consequence immoral and that such somehow justifies eternal torture or eternal torment. It is masochistic.

We strive to be moral because we have been redeemed by Christ, but it is not what saves us.

Speak for yourself - I don't strive to be moral for that purpose.

I'm not trying to attack you as an individual. I'm just trying to say that teaching morality as the end all be all in Christianity is like teaching the Law without the Gospel. If you don't have Christ you can't be saved. Period. End of discussion.

Thus it cannot be coherently argued, from your perspective, that Christianity has anything whatsoever, in the end, to do with morality. Only obedience to authority.

 

[WirSindBettler]

No, I understand this belief. I just find it morally repugnant.

Good for you!

I don't care.

"Let the Turk believe and live as he will, just as one lets the papacy and other false Christians live." - Martin Luther

I'm not sure that making this clarification changes things one iota.

You're right of course.

"For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Matthew 5:18

You simply assert that all people as a consequence of not being perfect are by consequence immoral

Yep . . . pretty much. Adam ate the forbidden fruit, and fell, and by nature of being human all mankind has been born with a corrupted will.

and that such somehow justifies eternal torture or eternal torment.

Naturally. Just as someone murdering another justifies punishment. Just as someone raping another justifies punishment. Yet don't give up hope:

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16

It is masochistic.

Yep. That's exactly what it is.

“And so the lion fell in love with the lamb…" he murmured. I looked away, hiding my eyes as I thrilled to the word.
"What a stupid lamb," I sighed.
"What a sick, masochistic lion.”
- Stephanie Meyer, Twilight

"The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them."
Isaiah 11:6

Speak for yourself - I don't strive to be moral for that purpose.

Correction: That's why we *as Christians* strive to be moral.

Plus whether or not you strive to be moral has no connection to your salvation.

Thus it cannot be coherently argued, from your perspective, that Christianity has anything whatsoever, in the end, to do with morality. Only obedience to authority.

Or you know, it could be about a God who loves us so much that He was willing to sacrifice Himself on the Cross for our Sins, feed us with His Holy Body and Blood, and lead us to eternal life even though we (in all of our glory) are the equivalent of a used tampon (Isaiah 64:6). Just google the Luther quote I have so graciously provided in my signature.

 

[durangodawood]

Morality is a measure of behavior, not belief.

So I dont see how religious labels are necessarily an indicator.

...that said, I do see how various religious texts promote immoral bahavior. The Quran for sure. The Bible also.

As for atheists, "atheism" alone isnt a moral question. You'd need to see what else fill their lives and minds.

 

[Skavau]

Good for you!

I don't care.

That would be consistent with your implicit yet persistent authoritarianism and moral nihilism.

Yep . . . pretty much. Adam ate the forbidden fruit, and fell, and by nature of being human all mankind has been born with a corrupted will.

Ancestral taint. We deserve to be tortured horrifically because our ancestors did something that made God taint or allow a taint to inflict upon us that cursed us by blood to be born with a "corrupted will" and thus by consequence be received in hell. God curses us and then condemns us each for that curse.

I'm not sure what it is that you find intoxicating about any of this. It is morally indefensible from start to finish. Created sick, commanded to be well and on pain of torture.

Naturally. Just as someone murdering another justifies punishment. Just as someone raping another justifies punishment. Yet don't give up hope:

Neither rape nor murder justify torture. Nothing any human may do or ever could do in a lifetime deserves eternal torture. The very notion is explicitly sadistic. Even the prisoners of totalitarian dictatorships eventually get the reprieve of being allowed to die. The very concept of hell is more evil than the sum total of all evil inflicted by humanity combined.

Yep. That's exactly what it is.

Yes, it is. Your defense of it is explicitly masochistic.

Or you know, it could be about a God who loves us so much that He was willing to sacrifice Himself on the Cross for our Sins, feed us with His Holy Body and Blood, and lead us to eternal life even though we (in all of our glory) are the equivalent of a used tampon (Isaiah 64:6). Just google the Luther quote I have so graciously provided in my signature.

An incoherent pseudo-solution that by consequence condemns billions of innocents to permanent torment. I will also not be told that I must play homage and pledge my fealty to a blood sacrifice made on my behalf, before I was born, to purify me of a corruption that was inflicted upon me at birth by ancestors who I never knew and could not account for. The whole concept is morally bankrupt and totalitarian in essence.

 

[WirSindBettler]

That would be consistent with your implicit yet persistent authoritarianism and moral nihilism.

Okay . . . ? I guess I'm an authoritarian and moral nihilist.

"Although the works of man always seem attractive and good, they are nevertheless likely to be mortal sins. Although the works of God are always unattractive and appear evil, they are nevertheless really eternal merits."
-Luther, Heidelberg Disputation Thesis 3-4

Ancestral taint. We deserve to be tortured horrifically because our ancestors did something that made God taint or allow a taint to inflict upon us that cursed us by blood to be born with a "corrupted will" and thus by consequence be received in hell. God curses us and then condemns us each for that curse.

Uh . . . no, not quite. While Adam and Eve gave us our inclination to sin, we have each individually sinned as well. Don't call yourself guiltless. And no, God doesn't curse us and condemn us, we curse and condemn ourselves.

I'm not sure what it is that you find intoxicating about any of this. It is morally indefensible from start to finish. Created sick, commanded to be well and on pain of torture.

You forgot the whole "God died on a cross so that we may be well without any works of our own, so that we are freed from pain of torture."

Neither rape nor murder justify torture. Nothing any human may do or ever could do in a lifetime deserves eternal torture. The very notion is explicitly sadistic. Even the prisoners of totalitarian dictatorships eventually get the reprieve of being allowed to die.

Eternal torture? More like lack of God. Eternal punishment? Yes.

The very concept of hell is more evil than the sum total of all evil inflicted by humanity combined.

"The very concept of prison is more evil than the sum total of all crimes worthy of prison committed by humanity combined."

Yes, it is. Your defense of it is explicitly masochistic.

*Explicitly satirical.

An incoherent pseudo-solution that by consequence condemns billions of innocents to permanent torment.

Innocents? Innocents? There was only one innocent and He was the "blood sacrifice" you so vehemently deny.

Don't tell me you're perfect. That you've never, ever, ever done anything wrong.

By denying Christ you're sinning!

I will also not be told that I must play homage and pledge my fealty to a blood sacrifice made on my behalf, before I was born, to purify me of a corruption that was inflicted upon me at birth by ancestors who I never knew and could not account for.

No one's forcing you to do anything. You are faced with a choice, and you have decided against the Light of God. Also, that's not exactly what's happening.

The whole concept is morally bankrupt and totalitarian in essence.

Which is obviously why you have decided to rant here, online, on an internet forum, rather than actually read Scripture, consult any of the countless theologians who have written on the subject, or anything else. Instead, you base most of your information off of people as misguided as you are, and insist that you are in the right.

"Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Matthew 15:14

 

[Skavau]

Okay . . . ? I guess I'm an authoritarian and moral nihilist.

Yes, both unappealing tags for most people.

"Although the works of man always seem attractive and good, they are nevertheless likely to be mortal sins. Although the works of God are always unattractive and appear evil, they are nevertheless really eternal merits."
-Luther, Heidelberg Disputation Thesis 3-4

This kind of extract comes across as extremely cultish.

Uh . . . no, not quite. While Adam and Eve gave us our inclination to sin, we have each individually sinned as well. Don't call yourself guiltless. And no, God doesn't curse us and condemn us, we curse and condemn ourselves.

Committing imperfect acts from time to time is not a valid criteria for eternal torment.

You forgot the whole "God died on a cross so that we may be well without any works of our own, so that we are freed from pain of torture."

Yes, a 'solution' that condemns billions of people by consequence of them being a Muslim, or a Taoist, or a Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Hindu and every other belief that is not Christian. A 'solution' that condemns people who simply are unable for evidence based reasons to become Christian. Inept at best and sadistic at worst.

Eternal torture? More like lack of God. Eternal punishment? Yes.

Neither rape nor murder command "eternal punishment" be that traditional torture or torment and for whatever reason they happen. The punishment is by definition wholly disproportionate.

"The very concept of prison is more evil than the sum total of all crimes worthy of prison committed by humanity combined."

Except it isn't. We imprison people to protect society, or we should. Some countries do not use prisons in those ways and indeed even in prison, even in the worst squalor imaginable you do eventually get the chance to die to be rid of it all. With your sadistic eternal hell fantasy billions of people will be suffering for eternity. Nothing anyone in humanity has ever done comes close to that.

Innocents? Innocents? There was only one innocent and He was the "blood sacrifice" you so vehemently deny.

It condemns people who have no reason to accept the "blood sacrifice" as true. A Muslim in Saudi Arabia who has been taught and believes Islam to be true has no reason, from his perspective, to believe Christianity is true. He is just as committed as you are to God but his honesty and integrity on his values apparently means nothing and he will be discarded like everyone else to suffer for eternity because he didn't worship the right way, say the right words and believe the right thing. This is sadistic.

I also find the idea that I should kneel towards a blood sacrifice assumed on my behalf to be implicitly tyrannical. Non serviam.

Don't tell me you're perfect. That you've never, ever, ever done anything wrong.

Never said I was perfect - I said that not being perfect does not require being punished.

By denying Christ you're sinning!

No, I'm coming to a conclusion. My denial of Christianity is based on the lack of evidence for Christianity. I cannot help that conclusion unless evidence is presented to me.

No one's forcing you to do anything. You are faced with a choice, and you have decided against the Light of God. Also, that's not exactly what's happening.

Belief is not a choice by the way. You cannot just choose to believe anything. You have to be convinced.

What part did I get wrong, per chance?

Which is obviously why you have decided to rant here, online, on an internet forum, rather than actually read Scripture, consult any of the countless theologians who have written on the subject, or anything else. Instead, you base most of your information off of people as misguided as you are, and insist that you are in the right.

It seems I have got little wrong so far. What is specifically wrong about my commentary of your commentary?

I find defense and adulation of despots ugly no matter if they're supernatural or human. Hence my 'rant'.

 

[WirSindBettler]

I find defense and adulation of despots ugly no matter if they're supernatural or human. Hence my 'rant'.

Skavau, let me begin this by apologizing.

I have in my last few posts acted like a d-bag, and as arrogant and un-Christian as can be.

The truth is, you and I have fundamentally different concepts of morality, and of the need for salvation. In all likelihood your beliefs will not be changed, but that does not mean that I need to act like a jerk.

I get angry when discussing theology at times, rarely ever in person, but often online, as I do not know the person I am defending my faith against. Honestly, you remind me very much of myself before I was baptized. An optimist, always seeing the best in humanity, looking forward, and never back. I realized the errors of my ways in a very blunt matter-of-fact situation, which I will not discuss with anyone outside of a Pastoral care situation, but you would not care to hear it. Sometimes I have doubts, as everyone who has faith does at one time or another, and I fear, within myself, that I will lose my salvation, and lose myself in sin. So I do not entirely trust God at certain times. I try to build my own defenses around my beliefs, and they fail nearly every time.

If I have in any way offended you, I apologize.

This discussion was not originally about what it has morphed into. I originally insinuated that it was possible for a non-Christian to be moral, but, I correctly exposited on this teaching with the Christian belief that morality does not equate to salvation.

I'm not trying to condemn you. I don't know you. I've never met you, and in all likelihood I never will. I could outwardly worse of a person then you are, and yet hypocritically I tend to judge. Perhaps again, because you so often remind me of my own previously held beliefs, and in attempting to judge you, I am only condemning myself.

Again, I apologize. I did not mean to react so caustically, yet I did. I did not seek God, but merely my own retribution, and for that I apologize.

I will be praying for you, and even though you are a humanist, I hope that if you ever see the light and glory of Christ, you will try and pray for me. We all need prayers. You, me, the president, the pope, every man, woman, and child on this earth. Pagan, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, or other, we all need love. And I firmly and faithfully believe that God offers that love in the form of the ultimate sacrifice of Christ.

For acting so un-Christian, and for not treating you with the level of respect I would afford myself, I apologize.

Pax Christi,

WirSindBettler

"This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another."
John 15:12-17

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

 

[SteveB28]

The problem is many people don't understand Christianity. Christianity explicitly states that no one can get to heaven on works.

"As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one." Romans 3:10

We all fail. We all screw up. To think that Christians believe that moral people go to heaven is to misunderstand Christianity. That's the point. No one is moral. No one can go to heaven.

You and I are basically no different. We're both fallen, wretched sinners. The only difference is whether or not you have the Grace of Christ. For we're saved by Grace through Faith alone.

We strive to be moral because we have been redeemed by Christ, but it is not what saves us.

I'm not trying to attack you as an individual. I'm just trying to say that teaching morality as the end all be all in Christianity is like teaching the Law without the Gospel. If you don't have Christ you can't be saved. Period. End of discussion.

"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" John 14:6

The philosophy you espouse is horrendous. This is the formula that permits that evil, filthy murderer from ISIS we see holding a knife over the throat of his next victim to enter the 'gates of heaven'. All he has to do, in the seconds before a U.S. or Iraqi soldier puts a bullet into his religiously polluted brain, is to realise that he has been following the wrong faith, observing the 'wrong' God. If he makes a genuine commitment to a belief in the Christian God in those seconds, he becomes eligible for a place in heaven.

Be honest with yourself. With every fibre of your being, you know such a situation to be grossly immoral.

 

[Messy]

They're not categorically immoral simply for having those beliefs. Neither are all Christians categorically moral.

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

 

[Nithavela]

Wirsindbettler, Skavau, get a room, you two.

 

[Gottservant]

The problem of the morality of others, is purely that you are not first judging yourself. (selah)

 

[DogmaHunter]

Then you just have a bunch of moral people going to hell.

And then some christians have the nerve to call that "divine and perfect justice".

What a joke.