Misused Christian beliefs

[cloudyday2]

You hope that I'm joking that yoga comes from Hinduism and yoga literally means to yoke with their Gods? No I'm not joking. Look into it, it's but a google click away.

This is may be similar to the problem faced by St. Paul in his advice about food offered to idols. I recently watched a lecture by Bart Ehrman touching on this. Ehrman said that Paul advised against eating the food - not because idols represented real gods but because it might appear to non-Christians that Christians were honoring other gods.

So by this reasoning, a Christian shouldn't actually fear that he/she is worshiping Hindu gods (or even demons) by practicing yoga, but a Christian might worry that non-Christians might think that. In this day, I don't think that worry is warranted. Most Westerners see yoga as exercise, so Christians ought to be able to use it that way without fear.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

You hope that I'm joking that yoga comes from Hinduism and yoga literally means to yoke with their Gods? No I'm not joking. Look into it, it's but a google click away.

What you said you rejected was " meditation". Do you just lump it all together? As If all forms of meditation are Yoga? And essentially anything you are unfamiliar with or uncomfortable with is demonic?

 

[Romans 8]

This is may be similar to the problem faced by St. Paul in his advice about food offered to idols. I recently watched a lecture by Bart Ehrman touching on this. Ehrman said that Paul advised against eating the food - not because idols represented real gods but because it might appear to non-Christians that Christians were honoring other gods.

So by this reasoning, a Christian shouldn't actually fear that he/she is worshiping Hindu gods (or even demons) by practicing yoga, but a Christian might worry that non-Christians might think that. In this day, I don't think that worry is warranted. Most Westerners see yoga as exercise, so Christians ought to be able to use it that way without fear.

Many Christians do not engage in the practice of yoga in order not to engage in demonic influence, nor would they engage in idol worship. Worshiping idols is a sin against God. Any sin against God can leave one vulnerable to demonic influence. Most of the yoga practiced in the west is stretching and breathing, which fits in nicely with much of the New Age religion. Meditations practiced in Hinduism and eastern yogic traditions are more intense.

 

[Romans 8]

What you said you rejected was " meditation". Do you just lump it all together? As If all forms of meditation are Yoga? And essentially anything you are unfamiliar with or uncomfortable with is demonic?

Yes, all of the meditations of the new age and eastern religions are satanic in nature.

 

[hedrick]

So is Jesus gathering people who are ALREADY born from above (at birth) or is Jesus exhorting people to BECOME born from above somehow (through baptism or repentance or joining a Christian group)?

That may not have such a clear answer as you'd suggest. He distinguishes it from physical birth. He implies later in the chapter that it's the result of the Spirit's activity. Joining a Christian group would be anachronistic. John doesn't seem to use the word repent or repentance (though the Synoptics do). In passages like 1:12 and 5:24 he speaks of someone believing. But John neither contains a major emphasis on decision nor does it deny it. I suspect if you asked he would attribute faith both to the activity of the Spirit and to our belief.

Christians often seem to assume that everyone becomes a follower of Jesus the same way. We have people whose lives are a mess, and experience it as a dramatic conversion. We have others who grow up in the faith. I think this leads people to emphasize certain passages in the NT, that match what they understand as a normative path. But I don't think the NT taken as a whole gives a single process for becoming a Christian, nor a single explanation for just how the Spirit and our own choice work.

Also if Jesus can be misunderstood by an audience he knows intimately then we must ask why? "Those who have ears" was a phrase used by Jesus suggesting that his teachings could only be understood by people who were already in a certain state of receptiveness. That is kind of troubling if the stakes are heaven and hell.

In this particular case the person he was talking to was not one of his followers. Nicodemus came to Jesus secretly. You don't get the impression that he had previously been a follower.

I'm not sure what specific passages you're thinking of. Particularly in John, there's definitely an implication that the Spirit makes us receptive. Again, I'm not sure there's such a neat explanation for differences. Many of the references to people who have ears to hear don't seem to be about salvation, but misunderstanding.

In my opinion the Bible never really deals with this question in quite the form you're asking it (which is pretty common these days). Lots of answers have been proposed, as I'm sure you know. The main two questions I see are (1) is there really a heaven and hell, and what's involved in where you end up, (2) to what extent is God responsible for history. I'm skeptical about the traditional hell, but I do very much fear that at least a few people don't end up in eternal life. The Bible clearly claims that God will make history end up the way he wants, but I don't think it's so clear that he controls individual lives of everyone.

 

[dlamberth]

You hope that I'm joking that yoga comes from Hinduism and yoga literally means to yoke with their Gods? No I'm not joking. Look into it, it's but a google click away.

I don't know how to categorize it with in the framework of the two options given in the OP, but I've seen a lot of bogus miss-information come out of the beliefs that various Christians might have.

 

[Robban]

Of course there was the idea of a fall in the Book of Enoch (fallen angels creating all the evil in the world), and many Essenes saw a cosmic struggle between the force of light (under archangel Michael) and the forces of dark (under Belial).

I don't quite understand what the Jews in the time of Jesus thought about this. I'm not certain where the Original Sin idea came from.

It is not like falling from the sky .

When Adam was banished from the Garden of Eden

the word means also divorce,

Divorce comes before marriage.

Sin banishes the Shechinah, the Divine Presence.

A marriage in the wake of a divorce in spiritual terms,

is conceivable after a state of "Divorce" only when there was repentence in the interim.


"Indeed, it is impossible for the wicked to begin to serve G-d without first repenting for their past.
(Alter Rebbe)

 

[holo]

Yes, all of the meditations of the new age and eastern religions are satanic in nature.

I remember believing stuff like this. They also had me believe that KISS was an acronym for Kids In Satan's Service. The box kept getting smaller in the eighties and early nineties.

Anyway, Christianity is the only worldview I know where it's possible to worship demons by accident. Apparently the devil sort of owns certain breathing techniques and poses, so that when you do them, you "open up to spirits" or what have you. It's a belief in magic, really. A deck of cards, a certain drum beat or musical style, souvenirs from India, were in fact magic and could harm you. It was pretty crazy. Basically anything could be "of the devil", and if the devil had it first, it would be ruined forever. When my grandfather was young, a lot of people believed the devil owned the fiddle, and when mom was a girl, they thought the same about drums.

Anyway, it feels GREAT to make up for all the stuff I missed out on as a kid. Finally getting to blast AC/DC without feeling guilty about enjoying it, checking out yoga or whatever and see if it works, not worrying that demons might live in the objects in my house, figuring out how to make judgments for myself instead of checking everything against some arbitrary list, and most importantly, not being scared to death by both God and the devil every waking hour.

 

[Romans 8]

I remember believing stuff like this. They also had me believe that KISS was an acronym for Kids In Satan's Service. The box kept getting smaller in the eighties and early nineties.

Anyway, Christianity is the only worldview I know where it's possible to worship demons by accident. Apparently the devil sort of owns certain breathing techniques and poses, so that when you do them, you "open up to spirits" or what have you. It's a belief in magic, really. A deck of cards, a certain drum beat or musical style, souvenirs from India, were in fact magic and could harm you. It was pretty crazy. Basically anything could be "of the devil", and if the devil had it first, it would be ruined forever. When my grandfather was young, a lot of people believed the devil owned the fiddle, and when mom was a girl, they thought the same about drums.

Anyway, it feels GREAT to make up for all the stuff I missed out on as a kid. Finally getting to blast AC/DC without feeling guilty about enjoying it, checking out yoga or whatever and see if it works, not worrying that demons might live in the objects in my house, figuring out how to make judgments for myself instead of checking everything against some arbitrary list, and most importantly, not being scared to death by both God and the devil every waking hour.

What an amazing trade off. Ones salvation for the freedom to play horrible music and wear women's yoga pants. But here you are, spending your free time in a Christian forum. I made a thread previously asking why you people come here, not one intelligent answer, only masquerading and lies attempting to hide the real reasons which all stem from spite and contempt (as evidenced in your post). These "innocent" atheist threads aren't made for discussion, they're made for Christian bashing.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I don't know how to categorize it with in the framework of the two options given in the OP, but I've seen a lot of bogus miss-information come out of the beliefs that various Christians might have.

Right. I think we have seen a good example.

 

[holo]

What an amazing trade off. Ones salvation for the freedom to play horrible music and wear women's yoga pants.

I imagine two guys in hell:
- What are you in for?
- I raped a child and killed my parents. What about you?
- I did yoga and listened to The Beatles.

I mean, it is of course possible that God will send you to hell for listening to a particular type of music, but then it's impossible to say what will determine who goes where in the afterlife. For all we know only people with white socks go to heaven, because if it depends on your taste in music, it has nothing to do with morality or what we call logic.

But here you are, spending your free time in a Christian forum.

Yep. Better here than on Facebook

I made a thread previously asking why you people come here, not one intelligent answer, only masquerading and lies attempting to hide the real reasons which all stem from spite and contempt (as evidenced in your post). These "innocent" atheist threads aren't made for discussion, they're made for Christian bashing. My time is valuable, any replies with personal attacks will be reported.

By all means do, I'm not one to do personal attacks on forums. Personally I'm here because I think some of the debates are interesting and fun.

 

[cloudyday2]

What an amazing trade off. Ones salvation for the freedom to play horrible music and wear women's yoga pants. But here you are, spending your free time in a Christian forum. I made a thread previously asking why you people come here, not one intelligent answer, only masquerading and lies attempting to hide the real reasons which all stem from spite and contempt (as evidenced in your post). These "innocent" atheist threads aren't made for discussion, they're made for Christian bashing. My time is valuable, any replies with personal attacks will be reported.

LOL, you have a way with words ("What an amazing trade off. Ones salvation for the freedom to play horrible music and wear women's yoga pants.")

BTW, if you post that thread I would be happy to explain why I come to CF (FWIW). The "world religions" sub-forum is the only one that I follow consistently.

And, my inspiration for creating this thread was my realization that Christianity could be a lot more marketable in modern society if certain doctrines were gone. Of course that doesn't mean those doctrines SHOULD be gone - maybe they are essential unpleasant truths. But I have a suspicion that some of these doctrines that turn people away from Christianity are being misused.

 

[Zoness]

Christians calling everything they don't like satanic. It's not really a way to endear yourself to people. Luckily my parents were pretty mild Catholics so they had a loose hand with me but I had homeschooled Baptist friends who weren't allowed to play any video games, watch TV, read any fantasy or sci fi or dress up for Halloween. Like how lame is that? No wonder they resent their upbringing now.

 

[dlamberth]

Funny...for some reason, (maybe satanic?) in my minds eye I'm now seeing Jesus wearing very colorful yoga pants while teaching on a hillside to the crowd who have gathered around Him.

 

[dlamberth]

Yes, all of the meditations of the new age and eastern religions are satanic in nature.

What about meditations on the Breath? Is that type of meditation satanic? Our breath is a gift from God, it's not New Age or Eastern Religion or anything like that is why I ask.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There are certain Christian beliefs that caused a lot of problems and worries for me over the years. Maybe some of these beliefs were completely bogus, and others may have been misused, and of course some of them may have been unpleasant truths.

I thought we might share the beliefs we see as bogus or misused?

Did that help? There are innumerable beliefs that are bogus and misused.

That which is true and pure and wise is much simpler and better to look at and to learn about from God.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So is Jesus gathering people who are ALREADY born from above (at birth) or is Jesus exhorting people to BECOME born from above somehow (through baptism or repentance or joining a Christian group)?

Would you quote the passage you are referencing ? (What you said is not said anywhere in Scripture)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Also if Jesus can be misunderstood by an audience he knows intimately then we must ask why? "Those who have ears" was a phrase used by Jesus suggesting that his teachings could only be understood by people who were already in a certain state of receptiveness. That is kind of troubling if the stakes are heaven and hell.

All Scripture agrees that everyone misunderstands unless they are granted understanding by the Father from heaven.

The stakes are eternal, yes, and should be troubling, probably, since most people never gain understanding.

 

[caerlerion]

I'm not certain where the Original Sin idea came from.

The immensely influential Augustine, who derived it from a Latin mistranslation of Romans 5:12.

I forget the exact details of the mistranslation. Something like "death spread to all because all of have sinned" being changed into "in him (Adam) all have sinned". Augustine took this to mean God held all humanity responsible for Adam's sin, because all humanity inherited Adam's guilt. Every individual, from the oldest person down to the youngest infant, is condemned solely by virtue of being Adam's descendant.

The Jewish apocalypse 2nd Baruch, which definitely did not teach "original sin", was written only a few decades after Paul wrote Romans. Chapter 54, verse 15 says,

For though Adam first sinned and brought untimely death upon all, yet of those who were born from him each one of them has prepared for his own soul torment to come

And verse 19 says,

Adam is therefore not the cause, save only of his own soul, but each of us has been the Adam of his own soul.

This is the exact same thing Paul says in Romans 5:12, "Adam's sin introduced death and everyone dies because everyone sins". When translated correctly (as most translations do), Romans 5:12 says the exact opposite of how Augustine interpreted it: every individual dies because every individual sins.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

This is the exact same thing Paul says in Romans 5:12, "Adam's sin introduced death and everyone dies because everyone sins". When translated correctly (as most translations do), Romans 5:12 says the exact opposite of how Augustine interpreted it: every individual dies because every individual sins.

COOL! YES! SIMPLE! (explains how so many errors came through Augustine and those who followed Augustine)