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Misconceptions

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MoNiCa4316

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So part of the basis of your salvation is in the works you do?

Simon, I think you're still not quite getting it. We are saved entirely by grace. We receive this grace through faith. But this faith must be living, not dead. In the Bible it says that faith without works is dead.

We are not saved by anything we do. We are saved by Christ's death on the Cross. But we receive this gift by having real, living faith...

Saying that we're saved by "faith alone" is like saying that we're saved by belief alone. But even the demons believe! Anyway, the Bible tells us that we're not saved by "Faith alone"! Why does this verse always get ignored?

We're saved entirely by grace, but you see, our good works are also the result of grace...just like faith....it's God working in us..

peace

monica
 
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MoNiCa4316

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The desire to do good works comes from God's grace, without grace I know that I am selfish. It is only through grace that I truly wish to do God's will with no benefit to me. I do not boast of anything that I may do that is good because it all comes from God and His grace. Nor am I saved by my works because I can not do anything of merit without grace.

God Bless,
Nancy

That's what I'm trying to say too :) :hug:
 
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MoNiCa4316

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I think here's the problem...for some reason, many people view faith and works as separate things...faith is something internal..belief, trust, etc. Works is defined as "something we do". But really, isn't works just faith manifest?

Let's look at the Bible.

On one hand, it says:

we are saved by grace, through faith, not by works so that no one can boast

we are not saved by the Law

etc.

On the other hand, there's:

the sheep and the goats

"faith without works is dead"

we're not saved by faith alone

loving God = obeying His commands

who perseveres to the end will be saved

Look what Jesus said:

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."

So how do we put all this together?

Well it makes no sense if we separate faith and works like this.... Here's what I think the Bible is saying:

We are saved entirely by grace...this grace is given to us through faith, and we are not under the OT Law... but if we claim to have faith and yet are not repenting of sin (literally: turning away from sin..changing our lives..) how can that be faith? Faith without works is dead. Our works don't save us, but yes they are involved in our salvation. Does this seem like a contradiction? Well you see, faith doesn't save us either. Only Christ saves us....it's all God!! :) but we accept this salvation by having a living faith. So yes, it is important how we live our lives...if we remain our 'old selves' but believe we are saved just because we agree that Christ died for our sins...we are deluding ourselves. Christ's righteousness must become part of us..that is the whole point. We're unworthy, but He died for us to make us worthy....we must be transformed by grace to enter heaven.

Am I going to 'boast in my works' before God on Judgement day? I sincerely hope not!! I know that my works would never be enough! All my hope would be in Christ. But if I have absolutely no works...that means that my faith was dead all along...that means that I wasn't living according to my faith!! We're saved by faith but works are the evidence of it, so yes they are pretty important!! And since they are also the result of grace, REAL faith-based works are always done for the right motives..out of love for God.

Hope this makes sense.

God bless

monica
 
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MoNiCa4316

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Hmm..I'm still unsure if I got my point across. What I'm trying to say is..

let's say there's a person who thought he was a believer...he went to church, sang worship songs, prayed...read the Bible... but he didn't even attempt to stop sinning, didn't obey God, didn't love Him (Jesus said that if we love Him, we would follow Him).

This is a totally hypothetical situation. But let's say this man dies, and he's asked why he should be let into heaven. And he says:

"Because Christ died for my sins..."

And he's asked if he believed in Christ during his life.
And he says "of course!"

But then he's asked..."so why did you not follow Him?"

It turns out that he had no faith, although he thought he did...because he had no works.

You see faith and works go together...there is no distinction. Good works, done out of love for God, are just us living out our faith. Christ said this is necessary.... !

I should add that God looks at our hearts. I'd say that a person who does "little" good works with love is closer to God than a person who does lots and lots of things for the wrong reasons. It's not about how much we do. It's about our hearts...in the end, the good works that will matter the most are those that were done with the most love and unselfishness, not those that the world noticed. I think that is what St. Therese taught us :)

peace

monica
 
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simonthezealot

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"If you love me, you will keep my commandments."

is that work ?

We are saved entirely by grace. We receive this grace through faith. But this faith must be living, not dead. In the Bible it says that faith without works is dead.
Look at Ephesians 2:8-10 works are the result of salvation...Not the aid or cause.
Ephesians 2:8-10 (New International Version)

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Saying that we're saved by "faith alone" is like saying that we're saved by belief alone. But even the demons believe!
What is your view of faith? Faith and belief are not even close to the same.
We're saved entirely by grace, but you see, our good works are also the result of grace...just like faith....it's God working in us..
But the difference is that in your theology you consider that work a requirement unto salvation.
The theology of the bible says works are a result of salvation as noted above.
 
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simonthezealot

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I think here's the problem...for some reason, many people view faith and works as separate things...faith is something internal..belief, trust, etc. Works is defined as "something we do". But really, isn't works just faith manifest?

Let's look at the Bible.
Here's what faith is...
Hebrews 11

1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Our works don't save us, but yes they are involved in our salvation. Does this seem like a contradiction? .
Yes, so please tell how they are involved in your salvation?
 
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Rhamiel

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At mass, the priest told us this month he will have been sober for 20 years, we started to applaud, and the prist said that the applause should not be for him but for God, because without the grace of God we can not do anything good, all goodness comes from God, and how we have to open up our hearts to Him and let his Grace work inside of us, that is what corroperation with grace means
 
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MoNiCa4316

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Simon, you see we dont view salvation as a one time event...it's something that happens to us our entired lives. The EO call this 'theosis'. We're "born again" through baptism, and start this process. Yes good works are the result of God's grace in us. If we persevere to the end, we will go to heaven. The Holy Spirit helps us persevere.

I don't think Ephesians 2:10 proves your point though...it's just saying that God prepared for us opportunities to serve Him.

No one here is saying that good works are done apart from God's grace!! They ARE the result of Him working in us!

:)
 
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MoNiCa4316

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At mass, the priest told us this month he will have been sober for 20 years, we started to applaud, and the prist said that the applause should not be for him but for God, because without the grace of God we can not do anything good, all goodness comes from God, and how we have to open up our hearts to Him and let his Grace work inside of us, that is what corroperation with grace means

:amen:
 
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MoNiCa4316

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Here's what faith is...
Hebrews 11

1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

Yes, but I meant that this faith should somehow manifest in our lives....by good works...

Yes, so please tell how they are involved in your salvation?

:doh: I just typed up two posts for you about that LOL! :) Works are not separate from faith...when you say that we're saved by faith, works are included in the equation.
 
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Melethiel

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"Faith is a divine work in us that transforms us and begets us anew from God, kills the Old Adam, makes us entirely different people in heart, spirit, mind, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it. Oh, faith is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, so that it is impossible for it not to be constantly doing what is good. Likewise faith does not ask if good works are to be done, but before one can ask, faith has already done them and is constantly active… Faith is a vital, deliberate trust in God’s grace, so certain that it would die a thousand times for it. And such confidence and knowledge of divine grace makes us joyous, mettlesome, and merry toward God and all creatures."

Martin Luther on faith
 
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TraderJack

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Yes, but I meant that this faith should somehow manifest in our lives....by good works...



:doh: I just typed up two posts for you about that LOL! :) Works are not separate from faith...when you say that we're saved by faith, works are included in the equation.


So, in your equation faith + works = salvation?
 
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Rhamiel

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So, in your equation faith + works = salvation?
I think it is better described as this... if you want to get mathmatical lol
Grace = Salvation
but we have to open our hearts up to the Lord, and allow His grace to work within us.
faith + works = cooperation with Grace
Grace, by its very nature is a free gift and is not earned
 
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TraderJack

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:wave: Hello brothers and sisters..

I've been reading these threads for a while..and I've noticed that there is a lot of hatred for "traditional" forms of Christianity, especially Catholicism.

Define what you mean by "hatred".

That is a very serious charge to make, and one that should not be made cavalierly as is usually done here.

So, explain exactly what you mean by "hatred".

I ask everyone to please try to understand the doctrines before criticizing them.

We do, from Rome's own documents. I'm afraid that you don't really understand the issues.

Do you believe you have to believe in the immaculate conception of Mary to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe you have to do penance to atone for your sins committed after baptism?

Rome does.

Do you believe that you have to believe in the assumption of Mary in order to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe that you have to believe in papal infallibility to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe that you have to believe in purgatory in order to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe that you have to believe in transubstantiation in order to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe it is mandatory to be subject to the pope of Rome in order to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe all those things are neccessary for salvaiton?

Yes or no?
 
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TraderJack

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I think it is better described as this... if you want to get mathmatical lol
Grace = Salvation
but we have to open our hearts up to the Lord, and allow His grace to work within us.
faith + works = cooperation with Grace
Grace, by its very nature is a free gift and is not earned


No matter how you rationalize it, as in that equation, it is your works that are the deciding factor.

Therefore, faith + human works = salvation.
 
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Catholic Christian

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Do you believe you have to believe in the immaculate conception of Mary to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe you have to do penance to atone for your sins committed after baptism?

Rome does.

Do you believe that you have to believe in the assumption of Mary in order to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe that you have to believe in papal infallibility to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe that you have to believe in purgatory in order to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe that you have to believe in transubstantiation in order to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe it is mandatory to be subject to the pope of Rome in order to be saved?

Rome does.

Did Jesus teach every one of these things Rome believes?

Jesus did.

Does Rome follow what Jesus taught?

Rome does
 
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Rhamiel

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No matter how you rationalize it, as in that equation, it is your works that are the deciding factor.
No, because we are not the active party, God is the active party, when I see calanistic predestination all I see is an over simplefication of Catholic teaching
 
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