Misconceptions

[MoNiCa4316]

So, in your equation faith + works = salvation?

I think it is better described as this... if you want to get mathmatical lol
Grace = Salvation
but we have to open our hearts up to the Lord, and allow His grace to work within us.
faith + works = cooperation with Grace
Grace, by its very nature is a free gift and is not earned

No matter how you rationalize it, as in that equation, it is your works that are the deciding factor.

Therefore, faith + human works = salvation.

I think that Rhamiel answered your question well...

No, it's not faith + human works = salvation...

More like:

living faith = belief + works done by the power of the Holy Spirit

salvation = grace

grace --> living faith --> salvation

Don't separate faith and works like that and you'll see what I mean.

 

[TraderJack]

To Lisa:

What gets me is how at times Orthodoxy is nicely lumped into Catholicism.

Not I, I make a very clear distinction.

What also gets me is how many can not forgive Rome for the bloody days of medieval Europe and get on with their lives.

That's not it.

We oppose the false dogmas of Rome, just as the Reformers did as the Reformers were correct in that Rome's additions to the Gospel, and gross errors on justification and the nature of the Atonement of Christ, so distorted the True Gospel as to make it unrecognizable in the church of Rome.

 

[TraderJack]

I think that Rhamiel answered your question well...

No, it's not faith + human works = salvation...

More like:

living faith = belief + works done by the power of the Holy Spirit

salvation = grace

grace --> living faith --> salvation

Don't separate faith and works like that and you'll see what I mean.

That is not how the Roman magesterium defines it.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Define what you mean by "hatred".

That is a very serious charge to make, and one that should not be made cavalierly as is usually done here.

So, explain exactly what you mean by "hatred".

Hatred could be defined as absense of charity. Although I don't know what's in people's hearts, I've seen posts here in GT that show lack of charity, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

We do, from Rome's own documents. I'm afraid that you don't really understand the issues.

Do you believe you have to believe in the immaculate conception of Mary to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe you have to do penance to atone for your sins committed after baptism?

Rome does.

Do you believe that you have to believe in the assumption of Mary in order to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe that you have to believe in papal infallibility to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe that you have to believe in purgatory in order to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe that you have to believe in transubstantiation in order to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe it is mandatory to be subject to the pope of Rome in order to be saved?

Rome does.

Do you believe all those things are neccessary for salvaiton?

Yes or no?

I think you're simplifying these issues and "what Rome believes", so I can not answer your questions.

 

[Rhamiel]

living faith = belief + works done by the power of the Holy Spirit

salvation = grace

grace --> living faith --> salvation

well said monica, so works do come from grace, but there is human free will to reject the Grace of God

 

[MoNiCa4316]

That is not how the Roman magesterium defines it.

Then please enlighten me.

 

[Rhamiel]

That is not how the Roman magesterium defines it.

you are right, the magesterium has never used the little mathmatical terms, I think math does not lend itself well to use in religion, but I do not think what she said goes agianst any teaching of the Church, lol Catholics are allowed original thought

 

[Rhamiel]

good works are possible because of grace = Catholic
faith without works is dead = Catholic
living faith leads towards salvation = Catholic

seems everything Monica said is orthodox, oh and I take it back, I like little mathmatical symbols now,
math symbols = fun for me

 

[Rhamiel]

between abbreviations, acronyms and math symbols, I might never have to use real words agian
it is almost as good as Orwellian New Speak, oh and for any of you who have not, you should read 1984

 

[Celticflower]

Face it, the Catholics basically believe the same thing the Methodists do, which is simply -- we are not working our way into Heaven, we are working along the way to Heaven.

 

[Rhamiel]

a lot of people seem to forget that there are a lot of litergical Protestant denominations as well, the Methodist church being one of them

 

[Celticflower]

a lot of people seem to forget that there are a lot of litergical Protestant denominations as well, the Methodist church being one of them

And don't ya just love us for that?
Actually my best friend is a Catholic/Methodist/Catholic --her family left the Catholic church and attended the Methodist for a few years do to feeling snubbed by the priest in their new hometown after a daughter was in a horrendous car accident. He never visited them in the hospital but the Methodist minister did. So for about 5 years they were very active in the Methodist church. Not really sure why they switched back.

 

[Rhamiel]

my Mom is methodist, so I go to church with her a few times a year (christmas easter type stuff), I was really close to the pastor and his family, his daughter went to High School with me and they are just really great people. this thread is about misconceptions about the catholic church, but one thing is sure, I do not think I have ever ran into any misconceptions about the methodist, you guys are just really friendly people, shame about the priest not visiting the family or the girl who got hurt, no excuse for something like that

 

[E.C.]

Not I, I make a very clear distinction.

Ah, I'll consider you an exception

That's not it.

We oppose the false dogmas of Rome, just as the Reformers did as the Reformers were correct in that Rome's additions to the Gospel, and gross errors on justification and the nature of the Atonement of Christ, so distorted the True Gospel as to make it unrecognizable in the church of Rome.

That was 500 years ago. This is 2008, not 1517.

Orthodox and Roman Catholics have been separated for 1000 years and with a bloodier history. Yet do I, an Orthodox Christian, post nothing but anti-Rome stuff? No; but I could and I could probably pull it off very well. However, there would be little to no socially redeeming value to it and would cause nothing more than further disharmony and argumentation in this forum. I have no real beef with Rome that would lead me to do it because I trust that our bishops will do what they do to keep things peaceful.

If you wish to talk "false doctrines" and "additions to Gospels" and so forth, than we can start making a list. Protestant list would be much longer than Rome list.

 

[TraderJack]

well said monica, so works do come from grace, but there is human free will to reject the Grace of God

That's right, man must access that grace through the Roman sacraments.

 

[TraderJack]

Ah, I'll consider you an exception

That was 500 years ago. This is 2008, not 1517.

Rome has not renounced any of those I cited.

Not a one.

Rome made them as formal declarations of dogma, ie-divine truth and must be believed in order to be saved. So, let them formally renounce them as not true. Then there is some basis for real discussion.

If you wish to talk "false doctrines" and "additions to Gospels" and so forth, than we can start making a list. Protestant list would be much longer than Rome list.

You may consider some to be "false doctrines", and ther are some who pose as "Protestants" that indeed do teach false doctrines, which I oppose as stridently as any other.

However, Rome makes astounding, incredible claims, which must be scrutinized for validity.

Do you think it absolutely neccessary to be subject to the pope in order to be saved?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ah, I'll consider you an exception

That was 500 years ago. This is 2008, not 1517.

Orthodox and Roman Catholics have been separated for 1000 years and with a bloodier history. Yet do I, an Orthodox Christian, post nothing but anti-Rome stuff? No; but I could and I could probably pull it off very well. ................

I have no doubt you could, so ya leave that up to the rest of us non-Roman catholics to defend why we don't pledge allegiance to Pope of Rome Peace

 

[Rhamiel]

That's right, man must access that grace through the Roman sacraments.

you are wrong
There is true and real grace in the sacrements, but God is sovereign and can give His grace in a more individual and less formal way, it is traditionaly called a "mystical" experiance, but in modern english mystical has come to mean occult, when you pray and you feel the Holy Spirit move you this is a form of grace, when you are strenghened by the power of God or when He gives you understanding of His Bible, all of this is from grace and not always a sacremental grace

 

[E.C.]

Rome made them as formal declarations of dogma, ie-divine truth and must be believed in order to be saved. So, let them formally renounce them as not true. Then there is some basis for real discussion.



You may consider some to be "false doctrines", and ther are some who pose as "Protestants" that indeed do teach false doctrines, which I oppose as stridently as any other.

However, Rome makes astounding, incredible claims, which must be scrutinized for validity.

Do you think it absolutely neccessary to be subject to the pope in order to be saved?

Reformists have not changed their contempt for Rome or contempt for anything liturgical either.

Pope of Rome? Nah. I'll stick with local bishops and my jurisdiction's primate.

 

[Rick Otto]

Hello brothers and sisters..

I've been reading these threads for a while..and I've noticed that there is a lot of hatred for "traditional" forms of Christianity, especially Catholicism. I don't really understand this. Also, I've noticed that "traditional" Christians, such as Catholics and Orthodox, are often accused of believing in salvation by works..that we are justified by our works before God.

This is a serious misunderstanding. No one believes that we are justified by works. We ALL believe that we are saved by Christ, because of His death on the Cross, by grace. What "traditional" Christians say is that faith is not just intellectual agreement (even the demons believe..), but an active love and obedience to Christ. Faith includes and leads to good works...
Remember, this is perfectly Biblical. The Bible tells us that faith without works is dead, and in James 2 it says that we are not saved by faith alone!

Yes we are justified entirely by grace, but both faith and works are involved in our acceptance of it!! Just because "traditional" Christians don't believe in "faith alone"..doesn't mean that we don't believe in "grace alone", or that faith is unimportant, or that Christ's sacrifice is not enough.

Here is a website that has really helped me understand some things:

I ask everyone to please try to understand the doctrines before criticizing them.

God bless

love,
monica

Hi sister, love to you, too.
We understand the doctrines well enough to see the self-contradictions in them, that is why they needed The Reformation & why the reformers were treated with so much brutality by "traditional" christianity, "traditional" being a very apt term as opposed to scriptural.