Misconceptions

[Catholic Christian]

Face it, the Catholics basically believe the same thing the Methodists do, which is simply -- we are not working our way into Heaven, we are working along the way to Heaven.

I like that. I'm not sure it is theologically precise, but it is essentialy correct.

I would add this:
Many people quote Romans, where it says you are saved by faith.
Others quote James, who says you are justified by works.

I believe the correct notion of a saving faith, is a working faith, which Paul sums up in Galatians 5:6 - "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."

 

[Philothei]

Hi sister, love to you, too.
We understand the doctrines well enough to see the self-contradictions in them, that is why they needed The Reformation & why the reformers were treated with so much brutality by "traditional" christianity, "traditional" being a very apt term as opposed to scriptural.

And which of the reformed has the right ..... truth? Calvin, Luther.... ??? who is your Pope?

ah.... Christ did not mentioned anything about Luther or Calvin been the reformers to the scripture anywhere last time I looked.... only about Apostles and leaders of the local community..... never about interpreters of the scripture... the term "reformation" is not even in the Bible.....

And also what about scriptural and historical together? or historicity is not of value because it uncovers the true meaning of the Bible in its right context?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

And which of the reformed has the right ..... truth? Calvin, Luther.... ??? who is your Pope?

ah.... Christ did not mentioned anything about Luther or Calvin been the reformers to the scripture anywhere last time I looked.... only about Apostles and leaders of the local community..... never about interpreters of the scripture... the term "reformation" is not even in the Bible.....

And also what about scriptural and historical together? or historicity is not of value because it uncovers the true meaning of the Bible in its right context?

Hey, we are not even allowed to have a valid priesthood according to Roman catholicism. Better inform my Pastor right away.

http://christianforums.com/t6790242&page=7

..........back to the topic at hand though, I would have no problem calling Lutherans by the name of Evangelical Catholic out of respect for the christians in that denomination and because they preach the gospel and have valid baptism, I do not believe they have a valid priesthood though and are not a "church" in the strict sense of the word

 

[Catholic Christian]

Hey, we are not even allowed to have a valid priesthood according to Roman catholicism. Better inform my Pastor right away.

You're allowed to...

....if you become a Catholic. LOL

 

[Catholic Christian]

Face it, the Catholics basically believe the same thing the Methodists do, which is simply -- we are not working our way into Heaven, we are working along the way to Heaven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlcinxP56AE

 

[CathNancy]

I know that there are many non-Catholic denominations that feed the poor and visit the sick and those in prison, so I know that works have a place in your spiritual lives. My question is why do you do works? I am not trying to be argumentative, I am just try to understand what importance you put on works and why you would perform them.

God Bless,
Nancy

 

[Melethiel]

Seeing as people always lambast Luther, I think I'll repost this:

""Faith is a divine work in us that transforms us and begets us anew from God, kills the Old Adam, makes us entirely different people in heart, spirit, mind, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it. Oh, faith is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, so that it is impossible for it not to be constantly doing what is good. Likewise faith does not ask if good works are to be done, but before one can ask, faith has already done them and is constantly active… Faith is a vital, deliberate trust in God’s grace, so certain that it would die a thousand times for it. And such confidence and knowledge of divine grace makes us joyous, mettlesome, and merry toward God and all creatures."

 

[Philothei]

Seeing as people always lambast Luther, I think I'll repost this:

""Faith is a divine work in us that transforms us and begets us anew from God, kills the Old Adam, makes us entirely different people in heart, spirit, mind, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it. Oh, faith is a living, busy, active, mighty thing, so that it is impossible for it not to be constantly doing what is good. Likewise faith does not ask if good works are to be done, but before one can ask, faith has already done them and is constantly active… Faith is a vital, deliberate trust in God’s grace, so certain that it would die a thousand times for it. And such confidence and knowledge of divine grace makes us joyous, mettlesome, and merry toward God and all creatures."

Hey Mel... Not intended to bash anyone.... just a jerk knee reaction to Otto's post.... if we as Christians "cut" down the "traditional" christians as that.... because they are traditionalists... then ..we should expect the right to their defense of their faith....

I had no intention to point to Luther individually, rather a random example of how "theologians" of 1500s can appear under the light of the so called "traditional" ECF....In the EC the EF seem to have consensus in faith matters while in the West we see the division and seperation of the Churches of the West... just a plain honest observation here....


Philothei

 

[Trento]

Matthew
Chapter 61 1 "(But) take care not to perform righteous deeds in order that people may see them; otherwise, you will have no recompense from your heavenly Father. 2 When you give alms, do not blow a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites 2 do in the synagogues and in the streets to win the praise of others. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. 3 But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right is doing, 4 so that your almsgiving may be secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. 5 "When you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, who love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on street corners so that others may see them. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go to your inner room, close the door, and pray to your Father in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will repay you. 7 11 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions. 16 "When you fast, 12 do not look gloomy like the hypocrites. They neglect their appearance, so that they may appear to others to be fasting. Amen, I say to you, they have received their reward. 17 But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18 so that you may not appear to be fasting, except to your Father who is hidden. And your Father who sees what is hidden will repay you.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

you guys gotta see this:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=6lZzp1u1PDQ

it's a Rich Mullins song

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Faith and Deeds

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

The BIBLE James 2

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I like that. I'm not sure it is theologically precise, but it is essentialy correct.

I would add this:
Many people quote Romans, where it says you are saved by faith.
Others quote James, who says you are justified by works.

I believe the correct notion of a saving faith, is a working faith, which Paul sums up in Galatians 5:6 - "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love."

yes that pretty much sums it up

 

[MoNiCa4316]

good works are possible because of grace = Catholic
faith without works is dead = Catholic
living faith leads towards salvation = Catholic

seems everything Monica said is orthodox, oh and I take it back, I like little mathmatical symbols now,
math symbols = fun for me

between abbreviations, acronyms and math symbols, I might never have to use real words agian
it is almost as good as Orwellian New Speak, oh and for any of you who have not, you should read 1984

haha...you're funny brother

I like little mathematical symbols too

 

[MoNiCa4316]

you are wrong
There is true and real grace in the sacrements, but God is sovereign and can give His grace in a more individual and less formal way, it is traditionaly called a "mystical" experiance, but in modern english mystical has come to mean occult, when you pray and you feel the Holy Spirit move you this is a form of grace, when you are strenghened by the power of God or when He gives you understanding of His Bible, all of this is from grace and not always a sacremental grace

God comes to us where we are

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Philothei;And which of the reformed has the right ..... truth? Calvin, Luther.... ???

"It" being soteriology, I would point to neither of those two as individuals, but to this statement, ... The Synod of Dordt

...who is your Pope?

Jesus Christ.

ah.... Christ did not mentioned anything about Luther or Calvin been the reformers to the scripture anywhere last time I looked.... only about Apostles and leaders of the local community..... never about interpreters of the scripture... the term "reformation" is not even in the Bible.....

Neither are the terms "Pope", "Cardinal", "Archibishop", etc., etc., etc.,...

And also what about scriptural and historical together? or historicity is not of value because it uncovers the true meaning of the Bible in its right context?

I respect history as it exposes the nicolaitane apostacy & crimes of the men you would empower by blind obedience & naive acceptance of their doctrines.
Love,
Rick

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I've been thinking some more about this...and here's what came to my mind as I was reading CS Lewis' "Mere Christianity" this evening:

To the Protestants here:

This might be wrong, but here's what I think you're saying about Catholicism:

"Catholics believe that we start out with 0% salvation, and then by our good works, we earn more of it...hopefully by the time we die we have enough.."

If that is indeed how you view Catholicism, I'd say that even the Catholics would disagree with you here. lol.

Instead, I offer this view. I can't say this is Catholic, or Orthodox, or whatever....this is just something that came to my mind and you guys would have to tell me what you think of it. Here's how I personally see the 'traditional' Christian belief:

We all start out with 0% salvation. Some people try to 'be good' in hope of pleasing God and getting into heaven. But eventually, we realize that it's not working...no matter how hard we try, we still fail. So ..we realize that we need Christ to save us...by grace. So we turn to Him and say "you must do this, I can't". We become 'new creations'...whether by faith or baptism or by a combination of these...I can't pretend to understand how this works really. Christ puts a bit of His 'new life' into us. It's totally a FREE gift. But once we have it, we must nurture it. If we dont keep on repenting of our sins, we would lose it. Thankfully the Holy Spirit brings us back each time. But this is where good works come in: the more we love and obey God, the more we 'grow into' this new life the beginning of which is already in us. This could be called theosis I guess...we are transformed into Christ's likeness...we become God's children: people who are like God. And the more this happens, the better our 'good works' become: the more they are done out of love, instead of duty. I believe the Sacraments have an important part to play here. Christ said..those who drink His blood and eat His flesh have life in them...and in the Last Supper, He said: This is My Body..This is My Blood. I'm taking Him at His word here. I believe that when we take Communion, we receive more of this grace, which helps us in theosis.

Do you see what I mean?

It's not like we start out with 0% salvation and must earn it with good works...I GUARANTEE you that Catholics or Orthodox don't believe this... it's more like we receive a bit of that 'new life' at baptism...and we nurture it with faith and obedience and the Eucharist...and it becomes more and more a part of us. God makes it grow. We don't create salvation in ourselves...we merely live out the Christ-life that's in us...and grow into the type of creatures who can live in heaven. God knows we won't reach perfection here on earth, and He doesn't require it. He just wants us to persevere and keep on trusting Him, and He'll take care of the rest. (I also want to add that our good works are the result of grace, and are done by the power of the Holy Spirit....so we can't boast in them)

Catholics and Orthodox: if I've said anything really wrong here, please correct me

Protestants: this is how I see 'traditional' Christianity.

God bless

monica

 

[Thekla]

"

I respect history as it exposes the nicolaitane apostacy & crimes of the men you would empower by blind obedience & naive acceptance of their doctrines.
Love,
Rick

whoa :o

you guys anathematized hot cross buns ?

 

[Philothei]

Further more the first Christians did depend on oral tradition since the Bible was not even writen into or wide spread and people depended on oral tradition...thus historicity was of the greatest importance..... in the Hellenistic world where Christianity spread...

 

[E.C.]

We all start out with 0% salvation. Some people try to 'be good' in hope of pleasing God and getting into heaven. But eventually, we realize that it's not working...no matter how hard we try, we still fail. So ..we realize that we need Christ to save us...by grace. So we turn to Him and say "you must do this, I can't". We become 'new creations'...whether by faith or baptism or by a combination of these...I can't pretend to understand how this works really. Christ puts a bit of His 'new life' into us. It's totally a FREE gift. But once we have it, we must nurture it. If we dont keep on repenting of our sins, we would lose it. Thankfully the Holy Spirit brings us back each time. But this is where good works come in: the more we love and obey God, the more we 'grow into' this new life the beginning of which is already in us. This could be called theosis I guess...we are transformed into Christ's likeness...we become God's children: people who are like God. And the more this happens, the better our 'good works' become: the more they are done out of love, instead of duty. I believe the Sacraments have an important part to play here. Christ said..those who drink His blood and eat His flesh have life in them...and in the Last Supper, He said: This is My Body..This is My Blood. I'm taking Him at His word here. I believe that when we take Communion, we receive more of this grace, which helps us in theosis.

Do you see what I mean?

It's not like we start out with 0% salvation and must earn it with good works...I GUARANTEE you that Catholics or Orthodox don't believe this... it's more like we receive a bit of that 'new life' at baptism...and we nurture it with faith and obedience and the Eucharist...and it becomes more and more a part of us. God makes it grow. We don't create salvation in ourselves...we merely live out the Christ-life that's in us...and grow into the type of creatures who can live in heaven. God knows we won't reach perfection here on earth, and He doesn't require it. He just wants us to persevere and keep on trusting Him, and He'll take care of the rest.

Catholics and Orthodox: if I've said anything really wrong here, please correct me

Protestants: this is how I see 'traditional' Christianity.

God bless

monica

Theosis is something that I find a hard time explaining outside of saying that it is not only a state of being, but also being in Communion with God. A step up from Adam and Eve before the Fall (consult local Orthodox clergy or TAW for more information )

I think what I am seeing here is the "Don't let good food go to waste" sort of thinking.
Did you ever see the movie Dangerous Minds with Michelle Pfeifer? She plays an English teacher at an LA high school. At the beginning of the movie, she says something to her students to the effect of this; "All of you will start with A's. But, here's the deal, you have to do your work to keep your A". Something like that.

Metaphor time: Think of our souls and overall spiritual well-being as a field. God gives us the tools, but it is up to us to cultivate it for there to be food grown. We have to plant the seeds to begin with and fertilize and water it to expect anything. We can't just let it all sit and hope for the rest; instead we have to sweat a little and earn it. Just like Michelle Pfeifer in Dangerous Minds: if we are given something, we not only have to use it, but also maintain it to keep it as such. Maybe one day make it better than how it was given to us.

Works helps, but above all the works and faith in the world, it is God's Grace.

 

[Philothei]

The word Gerontes.... elders is still used for our Bishops... since the time of the first Christian assembly...