Misconceptions

[simonthezealot]

Justification being a process has to do with all the stuff in the Bible about persevering to the end.

So it's an internal process in which a believer is transformed
and made more and more righteous?

How are they made more and more?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoNiCa4316

Justification being a process has to do with all the stuff in the Bible about persevering to the end.

Hi and I agree.
What I found interesting when translating Matt 24 with the greek texts was the use of "end".
The first one Jesus says "the End" the second He used to "an End".
I pondered on this quite awhile while studying on the Jewish/Hebrew book of revelation where Saints are shown "dying", but some remain until the Last bowl is poured out. Just thought it was interesting.

Matthew 24:6 "Ye shall be being about yet to be hearing battles and hearings of battles. Be seeing no be being alarmed; for it is binding to be becoming, but not as yet is the Finish/End/teloV <5056>
13 "The yet one enduring to an Finish/end/teloV <5056>, this-one shall be being saved/swqhsetai <4982> (5701).

 

[MoNiCa4316]

So it's an internal process in which a believer is transformed
and made more and more righteous?

How are they made more and more?

It's a process in which Christ's righteousness becomes a part of us..we are changed into His likeness. The EO call this 'theosis'. We don't make much of a distinction between justification and sanctification. We're "born again" through baptism, and pass from death to life..then, theosis begins.

This happens by faith (which includes both belief and works done out of love), and the Sacraments.

It's all about grace in the end. all by the blood of Jesus.

peace

monica

 

[Thekla]

Minor point to note Philippians is about working OUT and not ON, like mining a diamond out of a mine you OWN.

minor note:

the word translated as work out means "perform/accomplish/achieve"

 

[E.C.]

I've always considered your works to be...Baptism, mass, penance confession those types of things that without em your salvation is doomed, hence something beyond faith on your part...Are you telling me your church does not deem them necessary unto salvation?

I would rather hear that than be told my salvation is in jeopardy for not knowing every verse in the Bible.

I need to clarify a couple things...
Is justification a process?
Is Grace infused or imputed?

What is this justification of which you speak? Sorry, I don't do well with Western -tion words.

 

[sunlover1]

I would rather hear that than be told my salvation is in jeopardy for not knowing every verse in the Bible.

Not knowing every word or even most of the words
in the Bible has nothing to do with one's salvation.

 

[E.C.]

Not knowing every word or even most of the words
in the Bible has nothing to do with one's salvation.

Not according to a few... "encounters" I've had in here.

 

[sunlover1]

Not according to a few... "encounters" I've had in here.

I've had some 'encounters' as well
Here and in RL, but I've learned a lot over
the years and even more since being here.

For instance, I thought (dumby that I am)
that everyone thought like me. SO serious lol.

Anyhow EC. The Bible is not the tree of life.
The Bible (or God's Word) is very important
for you to read and study obviously, but the
greater thing that it sets you up for , is to
be able to hear HIS voice (Rhema).

We have to be able to hear God's own voice
or other voices will fool us, trick us. The enemy
is always trying to tear down that image, that
image of God, that we are.

Because I've read much Shakespeare, if I were to
"hear his voice behind me" I'd KNOW that voice
anywhere, and anothers voice Id not mistake it for.
(Havent read a ton of Shakespeare btw, just some)

So having hidden His Word in my heart, I can now
hear His voice more often than I could before.
And it get's clearer every day.

So yeah, Hide His Word in your heart, so that you
can hear Him and He can save you from troubles
in this life, and also so He can direct each decision,
in this life.

But as far as salvation, you need to know Him.
(imo)
Although, the two best ways to get to know HIM
are reading His word, and spending time with Him.

sunlover

 

[jckstraw72]

I've always considered your works to be...Baptism, mass, penance confession those types of things that without em your salvation is doomed, hence something beyond faith on your part...Are you telling me your church does not deem them necessary unto salvation?

things like Baptism, the Eucharist, etc are things GOD does to us. They are not in any way a work on our part.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Hello brothers and sisters..

I've been reading these threads for a while..and I've noticed that there is a lot of hatred for "traditional" forms of Christianity, especially Catholicism. I don't really understand this. Also, I've noticed that "traditional" Christians, such as Catholics and Orthodox, are often accused of believing in salvation by works..that we are justified by our works before God.

This is a serious misunderstanding. No one believes that we are justified by works. We ALL believe that we are saved by Christ, because of His death on the Cross, by grace. What "traditional" Christians say is that faith is not just intellectual agreement (even the demons believe..), but an active love and obedience to Christ. Faith includes and leads to good works...
Remember, this is perfectly Biblical. The Bible tells us that faith without works is dead, and in James 2 it says that we are not saved by faith alone!

Yes we are justified entirely by grace, but both faith and works are involved in our acceptance of it!! Just because "traditional" Christians don't believe in "faith alone"..doesn't mean that we don't believe in "grace alone", or that faith is unimportant, or that Christ's sacrifice is not enough.

Here is a website that has really helped me understand some things:

http://www.newman99.com/17.html

I ask everyone to please try to understand the doctrines before criticizing them.

God bless

love,
monica

You are correct. I know that Fundamentalists do not like to be bothered with actual "facts", but here is what the Catholic Church teaches regarding grace, justification, and works:

CCC 1996: "Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us..."

CCC 2010: "Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification..."

CCC 1992: "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men."

Catholics do NOT believe in justification by works apart from Christ. As usual, the Catechism (CCC) is out there for all to see, but people would rather parrot anti-Catholic rhetoric then bother to actually read what the Church teaches - and I don't mean read what the Church teaches according to Jimmy Swaggart or Jack Chick, I mean read what the Church teaches according to the Church.

You might want to read this link too: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911fea1.asp
.

 

[Catholic Christian]

Here is a link to an archived episode of "Catholic Answers Live". The OP is the subject of this episode. I hope someone finds it helpful:

http://www.catholic.com/audio/1998/mp3/ca980612.mp3

Peace be with you

 

[MoNiCa4316]

CCC 1996: "Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us..."

CCC 2010: "Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification..."

CCC 1992: "Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men."

LOL if only all anti-Catholics knew this.

 

[E.C.]

LOL if only all anti-Catholics knew this.

Even if they knew it, they'd still find some way to use it for polemics.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Not knowing every word or even most of the words
in the Bible has nothing to do with one's salvation.

I read it for the pure enjoyment of it.
Hopefully the Jews,Muslims and atheists will also one day come to know YHWH and His Christ as we do without proclaiming the "mary" as Queen of the Heaven .

http://christianforums.com/t6813701-question-time-jesus-returns-before-or-after-1000yrs.html

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 12:42 `A queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, the-this, and shall be condemning it/her. That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and lo, more of Solomon here!

Revelation 18:7 As much as glorifies herself, and indulges be giving to her tormenting and mourning that in her heart she is saying 'I am sitting a queen and widow not I am and mourning not I shall be seeing'.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Even if they knew it, they'd still find some way to use it for polemics.

lol... I guess if you have already made up your mind on something, no amount of evidence would really help.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

lol... I guess if you have already made up your mind on something, no amount of evidence would really help.

What Abraham said:

Luke 16:31 Saying yet to him: "If Moses and the Prophets not they are hearing, neither if ever anyone out of dead-ones may be rising, they shall be being persuaded".

http://users.aristotle.net/~bhuie/lazarus.htm

 

[New_Wineskin]

Edited : person was not using a typical catholic symbol . I now know the reason for the cackling

 

[simonthezealot]

How is it a process? in what way?

So it's an internal process in which a believer is transformed
and made more and more righteous?

How are they made more and more?

It's a process in which Christ's righteousness becomes a part of us..we are changed into His likeness. The EO call this 'theosis'. We don't make much of a distinction between justification and sanctification. We're "born again" through baptism, and pass from death to life..then, theosis begins.

This happens by faith (which includes both belief and works done out of love), and the Sacraments.

It's all about grace in the end. all by the blood of Jesus.

peace

monica

So part of the basis of your salvation is in the works you do?

 

[CathNancy]

Simon Jesus said that if we are to be His disciple we are to pick up our cross and follow Him. To follow Jesus also means that we are to do the will of God, works are demanded of us by God. Our works are a response to our faith, so yes, I would say that if we do not do the will of God, then we will not be saved. Our faith is to be alive, not dead, if we have faith then we want to do what God asks of us, and that includes works.

God Bless you,
Nancy

 

[sunlover1]

lol... I guess if you have already made up your mind on something, no amount of evidence would really help.

It's not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the lord.
We can be deceived, walking in error, and naturally
if we ARE deceived, we dont see that.

So part of the basis of your salvation is in the works you do?

No, none.
It's ALL of God.

Simon Jesus said that if we are to be His disciple we are to pick up our cross and follow Him. To follow Jesus also means that we are to do the will of God, works are demanded of us by God. Our works are a response to our faith, so yes, I would say that if we do not do the will of God, then we will not be saved. Our faith is to be alive, not dead, if we have faith then we want to do what God asks of us, and that includes works.

God Bless you,
Nancy

Right, we are created in Christ unto good works.
But our salvation is a FREE gift, NOT of works
(lest any would boast).
So no boasting, I do this, or we do that,
blah blah blah.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works,
lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained&#65279;b&#65279;
that we should walk in them.
b ordained: or, prepared




The prodigal son did nothing to deserve his standing
in the family. In fact he turned his back on his father,
asked for his inheritance, in essence saying, "I want the
cash, rather than you". (I wish you were out of the way
so I can get the money now??)
The Father though, waited, hoped, yearned, for his child
to return to him. That foolish son, who didnt know
how good he had it. How long was that Father watching
for that son to return? Was God running??
Nothing can seperate us from His love.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life,
nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,
nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature,
shall be able to separate us from the love of God,
which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

And out of our love for Him , eventually we
will see the fruit of that love in our lives.