Millennial Considerations

[seventysevens]

Didn't you see the verses I posted above about the spiritual mark of God?

Exodus 13
" For seven days eat bread made without yeast and on the seventh day hold a festival to the LORD"..."This observance will be for you like a sign on your handand a reminder on your forehead that this law of the LORD is to be on your lips."

Deuteronomy 6
... 2 that you may fear the Lord your God, you and your son and your son’s son, by keeping all his statutes and his commandments, which I command you, all the days of your life; ... 6 And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart; 7 ... 8 And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

Deuteronomy 11
You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

I think you need to think things through a bit. A physical mark does not make sense and does not jive with the gospel.

The scripture speak LITERALLY of a mark that a person is required to have in their right hand or forehead in order to buy or sell anything at all - this means a real mark that retail companies be it Sears
and every restaurant and every company that sells a service will require that you show them proof that you have this mark before you can buy food,
They will not believe your spiritual mark of the BEAST,

You said the mark is here , so how do you prove it?
it is a real mark 666 of the BEAST , not spiritual

 

[seventysevens]

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Let's start here then. When did this begin? It definitely can't precede Revelation 13:1, because until that beast rises out of the sea, which I take to be meaning the bottomless pit, and that Revelation 13:3 is then fulfilled, the events in Revelation 13:14-15 preceding that would be nonsensical. There is only one 42 month reign of the beast and that this reign can't occur during the thousand years while satan is bound. And if it can't occur once satan is loosed after the thousand years because Revelation 20:4 indicates it has already occurred prior to that loosing, so what is logically left then as an option, if not that Revelation 13:14-15 has to occur prior to the beginning of the thousand years? What other options are there?

1000 is a non-literal figure, this reign represents the church age presently.

Your hang up is you take 1000 as literal, and cant put a 3.5 year tribulation in this 1000, because 1000-3.5=996.5

You need to let go of 1000 being a literal figure, then you will understand. 2 Peter 3:8

one day is a thousand years

one second is a billion years

"Not Literal Earthly Time"

 

[seventysevens]

1000 is a non-literal figure, this reign represents the church age presently.

Your hang up is you take 1000 as literal, and cant put a 3.5 year tribulation in this 1000, because 1000-3.5=996.5

You need to let go of 1000 being a literal figure, then you will understand.
2 Peter 3:8

Wrong Again , no soup for you

 

[DavidPT]

The sea is usually meaning a vast amount of people , very large population in these context
a powerful ruler from a large population come out

While I do agree with that, I'm basing my conclusion about the sea in Revelation 13:1 likely meaning the bottomless pit in that context per the following.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up(anabaino) out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend(anabaino) out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Per Revelation 17:8, which beast did John see?

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.



having seven heads and ten horns(Revelation 13:1)---which hath the seven heads and ten horns(Revelation 17:7)


Obviously the same beast in both chapters, and that in one chapter we are told this beast ascends out of the sea, while in another chapter it indicates it ascends out of the bottomless pit. So which is it then? By making these referring to the same thing, that resolves this problem, at least IMO anyway.

 

[DavidPT]

1000 is a non-literal figure, this reign represents the church age presently.

Your hang up is you take 1000 as literal, and cant put a 3.5 year tribulation in this 1000, because 1000-3.5=996.5

You need to let go of 1000 being a literal figure, then you will understand. 2 Peter 3:8

one day is a thousand years

one second is a billion years

"Not Literal Earthly Time"

It doesn't matter whether the thousand years are literal or not. What matters is, there is clearly chronology of events to take into account here. For instance, no one in their right mind would claim satan's little season precedes the thousand years, regardless whether the thousand years to them are literal or not.

 

[LastSeven]

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Let's start here then. When did this begin? It definitely can't precede Revelation 13:1, because until that beast rises out of the sea, which I take to be meaning the bottomless pit, and that Revelation 13:3 is then fulfilled, the events in Revelation 13:14-15 preceding that would be nonsensical. There is only one 42 month reign of the beast and that this reign can't occur during the thousand years while satan is bound. And if it can't occur once satan is loosed after the thousand years because Revelation 20:4 indicates it has already occurred prior to that loosing, so what is logically left then as an option, if not that Revelation 13:14-15 has to occur prior to the beginning of the thousand years? What other options are there?

I don't have all the answers. I only know what I know and I'm not going to pretend to know what all the symbols mean.

What I do know is that a physical mark of the beast, like a microchip, does not jive with scripture. I also know that Jesus' reign began at the crucifixion and that Satan lost his authority at the same time. I also know that I have been spiritually resurrected already, and that the resurrection Jesus spoke of in John 6:39 is the second resurrection. Put it all together and we are currently living in the thousand year reign. I'm convinced of that.

As for Revelation 13, personally I think there's a good chance it refers to the Roman Empire and the rule of Nero. On the other hand, maybe it refers to the time of Nimrod and Semiramis. Or maybe it's much more spiritual than that and refers to something else entirely. I'm not sure, but whatever it is, it can not contradict the facts already established.

 

[DavidPT]

Didn't you see the verses I posted above about the spiritual mark of God?

Exodus 13
" For seven days eat bread made without yeast and on the seventh day hold a festival to the LORD"..."This observance will be for you like a sign on your handand a reminder on your forehead that this law of the LORD is to be on your lips."

Deuteronomy 6
... 2 that you may fear the Lord your God, you and your son and your son’s son, by keeping all his statutes and his commandments, which I command you, all the days of your life; ... 6 And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart; 7 ... 8 And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

Deuteronomy 11
You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

I think you need to think things through a bit. A physical mark does not make sense and does not jive with the gospel.

In Revelation 13 though, there is clearly no mark to take or not take until a beast first rises up out of the sea and another one out of the earth. Totally unrelated to these Scriptures you submitted from the OT. You might want to take your own advice as well, because it seems to me that perhaps you too are in need of thinking things through a bit.

 

[LastSeven]

The scripture speak LITERALLY of a mark that a person is required to have in their right hand or forehead in order to buy or sell anything at all - this means a real mark that retail companies be it Sears
and every restaurant and every company that sells a service will require that you show them proof that you have this mark before you can buy food,
They will not believe your spiritual mark of the BEAST,

You said the mark is here , so how do you prove it?
it is a real mark 666 of the BEAST , not spiritual

Deuteronomy 6 also speaks LITERALLY of a mark.

And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

Do you think the Israelites literally put marks on their hands or foreheads? If you agree that this mark is not physical, then why are you so set on the mark of the beast being physical? The Bible uses figurative language all over the place.

 

[Stephen Mendes]

Apart from the fact that the posting was becoming too time consuming...... here are the other reasons why I left...

1. I seen enough of Amils postings to realize that what an earlier poster told me "if you think you are going to get anywhere with these Amils you are fooling yourself" is 100% correct.

2. I have posted enough that anybody not already an Amil would at least have something to think about before becoming one.

3. The reason I did not go for the 1,000+ verses challenge because I realized it would be pointless..... I finally understood the thinking of Amil..... if you have replaced Israel and consider yourself (spiritual) Jew then all the texts that I could have given you (those that Premils consider to apply to the nation of Israel ) you would simply apply to yourselves...... moreover since you think that the eternal sate is patterned after the current state and that there is no Millennium..... you would simply transfer all the wonderful conditions (that Premils consider applicable to the Millennium) to the Eternal State...... basically there is nothing to debate (every verse you spin one way.... I would spin another way) I cannot convince you and you cannot convince me under those conditions..... what's the point of continuing ?..... except maybe to influence observers..... but as I have already said all I have to say to 'observers'..... there is nothing further to do except as below.

The two systems are not compatible..... and neither one is 'watertight' from where I sit, meaning there are 'problem' verses for either mindset.... but now that I finally understand how Amil's think, I can revisit the Premil stuff that causes Premil to change to Amil.

I currently believe that Premils who convert to Amil do so because of a lack of understanding of the various spiritual matters involved .... hence the accusations leveled at me already ..... LastSeven said (#294) "something about me thinking Amils were stupid, disingenious or evil"..... but I would never have said that cause it's not nice etiquette ..... but I am interested to research the various reasons why they defect..... and answer to my own satisfaction the arguments that they raise..... there are plenty of 'testimonials' on the internet so I will read them and mull over the scriptures till I find satisfactory answers for myself.

 

[LastSeven]

In Revelation 13 though, there is clearly no mark to take or not take until a beast first rises up out of the sea and another one out of the earth. Totally unrelated to these Scriptures you submitted from the OT. You might want to take your own advice as well, because it seems to me that perhaps you too are in need of thinking things through a bit.

Not necessarily. Just because the beast forces people to take a mark, does not mean the mark didn't exist before.

 

[seventysevens]

Deuteronomy 6 also speaks LITERALLY of a mark.

And you shall bind them as a sign upon your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.

Do you think the Israelites literally put marks on their hands or foreheads? If you agree that this mark is not physical, then why are you so set on the mark of the beast being physical? The Bible uses figurative language all over the place.

To answer your question the best way requires a very long post to touch on various things , what it boils down to is Jesus vs. satan and Jesus won for us on the cross , but the battle between Jesus and satan is yet to be fought because Jesus it making a point to all the world and he wants all of his creation of humankind to see who he really is ,
The mark distinguishes between who's side people are on ,
The mark represents satan and satan has had this plan to get all of Gods creation to serve him as he tries to prove to God how great he is that he can get Gods creation to serve not God but him

The mark is the name , or a number representing satan ,and God is using this method to prove to all the world that satan is a liar and deciever as God is angry with those who have believed satans lie and turned away from God

The mark whether it be a tattoo that can be blended into skin as not to be visible or whatever is used is simply to show that people who have received the mark have knowingly taken the mark , the causing all to take the mark means you are faced with a decision of whom you will serve , and if you say no to the mark because you love Jesus more than your own life you will be saved from eternal damnation

The mark of the Beast will be such that a person must pledge an allegiance to satan forcing people to make a decision on who they will serve so that it cannot be said that God did not tell them about what's at stake when a person accepts the mark .
Merchants - Babylon and other matters are also a reason in this which would require a real long post to describe how all that is applied

 

[Stephen Mendes]

I would also add that I was very naive..... when I made the original post that became this 'featured thread', I had no idea that 'Christian Forums' Eschatology department had in so many Amils willing to argue their case with such vigor.

Not only that, but I really did not understand Amil thinking..... now I believe I do.... so it has been a learning experience for me in more ways than one.

I wish everybody 'the best' whether Amil or Premil ..... doubtless you have your reasons and are passionate about it ... nobody can fault you for that ..... it was foolish of me to even entertain the notion that I could convert anybody to anything..... from now on I will take a more humble attitude in such matters.

 

[DavidPT]

To answer your question the best way requires a very long post to touch on various things , what it boils down to is Jesus vs. satan and Jesus won for us on the cross , but the battle between Jesus and satan is yet to be fought because Jesus it making a point to all the world and he wants all of his creation of humankind to see who he really is ,
The mark distinguishes between who's side people are on ,
The mark represents satan and satan has had this plan to get all of Gods creation to serve him as he tries to prove to God how great he is that he can get Gods creation to serve not God but him

The mark is the name , or a number representing satan ,and God is using this method to prove to all the world that satan is a liar and deciever as God is angry with those who have believed satans lie and turned away from God

The mark whether it be a tattoo that can be blended into skin as not to be visible or whatever is used is simply to show that people who have received the mark have knowingly taken the mark , the causing all to take the mark means you are faced with a decision of whom you will serve , and if you say no to the mark because you love Jesus more than your own life you will be saved from eternal damnation

The mark of the Beast will be such that a person must pledge an allegiance to satan forcing people to make a decision on who they will serve so that it cannot be said that God did not tell them about what's at stake when a person accepts the mark .
Merchants - Babylon and other matters are also a reason in this which would require a real long post to describe how all that is applied

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:


Assuming this mark is physical and that one takes this mark in their right hand as opposed to in their forehead, well there are accidents that happen to people from time to which might cause one to lose a limb, such as their right arm. What then? If you lose your right arm, you obviously lose your right hand as well, the hand the physical mark is in.

 

[Truth7t7]

It doesn't matter whether the thousand years are literal or not. What matters is, there is clearly chronology of events to take into account here. For instance, no one in their right mind would claim satan's little season precedes the thousand years, regardless whether the thousand years to them are literal or not.

The little season takes place at the end of the future 42 month tribulation.

The 1000 non-literal is taking place now in the Lords spiritual.

I don't see what your chronology has to do with.

Antichrist, 42 month tribulation, second advent.

Thousand being expired, Satan being released has no bearing.

1000 isn't a literal earthly figure

 

[LastSeven]

Apart from the fact that the posting was becoming too time consuming...... here are the other reasons why I left...

1. I seen enough of Amils postings to realize that what an earlier poster told me "if you think you are going to get anywhere with these Amils you are fooling yourself" is 100% correct.

2. I have posted enough that anybody not already an Amil would at least have something to think about before becoming one.

3. The reason I did not go for the 1,000+ verses challenge because I realized it would be pointless..... I finally understood the thinking of Amil..... if you have replaced Israel and consider yourself (spiritual) Jew then all the texts that I could have given you (those that Premils consider to apply to the nation of Israel ) you would simply apply to yourselves...... moreover since you think that the eternal sate is patterned after the current state and that there is no Millennium..... you would simply transfer all the wonderful conditions (that Premils consider applicable to the Millennium) to the Eternal State...... basically there is nothing to debate (every verse you spin one way.... I would spin another way) I cannot convince you and you cannot convince me under those conditions..... what's the point of continuing ?..... except maybe to influence observers..... but as I have already said all I have to say to 'observers'..... there is nothing further to do except as below.

The two systems are not compatible..... and neither one is 'watertight' from where I sit, meaning there are 'problem' verses for either mindset.... but now that I finally understand how Amil's think, I can revisit the Premil stuff that causes Premil to change to Amil.

I currently believe that Premils who convert to Amil do so because of a lack of understanding of the various spiritual matters involved .... hence the accusations leveled at me already ..... LastSeven said (#294) "something about me thinking Amils were stupid, disingenious or evil"..... but I would never have said that cause it's not nice etiquette ..... but I am interested to research the various reasons why they defect..... and answer to my own satisfaction the arguments that they raise..... there are plenty of 'testimonials' on the internet so I will read them and mull over the scriptures till I find satisfactory answers for myself.

Well, at least you're starting to understand the position. And you're right that looking at verses that apply to Israel or the new earth is pointless in this debate. That stuff is all circumstantial evidence anyway. You need to look at the following 8 reasons to believe in amillenialism.

1. The resurrection that Jesus mentions in John 6:39 (and other places) is the second resurrection, not the first. (we know this because it happens on the last day)
2. Jesus currently reigns. (Ephesians 1:20)
3. Satan lost his authority when Jesus gained his. (Revelation 12)
4. We currently reign with Jesus. (Ephesians 2:4-6)
5. The first resurrection is our death and resurrection with Christ. (Gal 2:19, Romans 6:4, Romans 6:6, Romans 6:13, John 5:24-25, Ephesians 2:4-6, Matthew 10:39)
6. Jesus will stay in heaven until the time of the new earth (Acts 3:21)
7. The 7th trumpet is blown at the end of the thousand years, not the beginning (Revelation 11:18)
8. When Jesus returns, his reign ends (end of 1000 year reign) as he hands over the kingdom to the father. (1 Corinthians 15:24)

And of course, all that will only make sense if you admit the following:

1. Scripture does not require Jesus to reign physically on earth during the thousand years.
2. Revelation is not written chronologically so scripture does not require Revelation 20 to follow after Revelation 19.

 

[seventysevens]

If the mark is placed in the forehead and you have an accident where you lose not a limb but your head you'll have bigger problem

Obviously in those cases the mark would be placed somewhere other than right hand , there is various types of technology that incorporate a electronic tattoo or chip that opens doors , starts cars , clocks people in at their workplace and they may have this number of beast incorporated into them , but the thing as mentioned it will be a decision on who a person chooses to serve - that sets them apart as they either serve satan or they serve God and are willing to give up their own life in order to save it , like Jesus stated

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:


Assuming this mark is physical and that one takes this mark in their right hand as opposed to in their forehead, well there are accidents that happen to people from time to which might cause one to lose a limb, such as their right arm. What then? If you lose your right arm, you obviously lose your right hand as well, the hand the physical mark is in.

 

[Truth7t7]

To answer your question the best way requires a very long post to touch on various things , what it boils down to is Jesus vs. satan and Jesus won for us on the cross , but the battle between Jesus and satan is yet to be fought because Jesus it making a point to all the world and he wants all of his creation of humankind to see who he really is ,
The mark distinguishes between who's side people are on ,
The mark represents satan and satan has had this plan to get all of Gods creation to serve him as he tries to prove to God how great he is that he can get Gods creation to serve not God but him

The mark is the name , or a number representing satan ,and God is using this method to prove to all the world that satan is a liar and deciever as God is angry with those who have believed satans lie and turned away from God

The mark whether it be a tattoo that can be blended into skin as not to be visible or whatever is used is simply to show that people who have received the mark have knowingly taken the mark , the causing all to take the mark means you are faced with a decision of whom you will serve , and if you say no to the mark because you love Jesus more than your own life you will be saved from eternal damnation

The mark of the Beast will be such that a person must pledge an allegiance to satan forcing people to make a decision on who they will serve so that it cannot be said that God did not tell them about what's at stake when a person accepts the mark .
Merchants - Babylon and other matters are also a reason in this which would require a real long post to describe how all that is applied

Those who take the mark and worship the image will do so because they are "Deceived Into This" by false miracles by the false prophet Revelation 19:20

"Sorta Like A Benny Hinn global crusade, as they are claiming a returned Jesus To Earth In Jerusalem, ready to start a millennial kingdom, like your teaching Dave

 

[seventysevens]

Those who take the mark and worship the image will do so because they are "Deceived Into This" by false miracles by the false prophet Revelation 19:20

"Sorta Like A Benny Hinn global crusade, as they are claiming a returned Jesus To Earth In Jerusalem, ready to start amillennial kingdom, like your teaching Dave

Satan is a Deceiver but God has told us about the Man of Lawlessness and the false prophet long before they come , the Delusion That God is sending so that those who reject Him will believe the deception
Jesus will return to earth whether you you believe it or not

I don't listen to Benny Hinn

 

[Truth7t7]

While I do agree with that, I'm basing my conclusion about the sea in Revelation 13:1 likely meaning the bottomless pit in that context per the following.

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up(anabaino) out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend(anabaino) out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Per Revelation 17:8, which beast did John see?

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.



having seven heads and ten horns(Revelation 13:1)---which hath the seven heads and ten horns(Revelation 17:7)


Obviously the same beast in both chapters, and that in one chapter we are told this beast ascends out of the sea, while in another chapter it indicates it ascends out of the bottomless pit. So which is it then? By making these referring to the same thing, that resolves this problem, at least IMO anyway.

Sea in Revelation 13:1 is multidues of people that the beast rises out of, this also shows he's a human.

Romans 9:27 The number of human people Israel, is as the sand of the sea.